Marty (942767) vs. Keith (WorshippingJesus)

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi All

The following post is the last post by Marty and me on the pre-existence of Jesus as a sentient being before he came into this world through the virgin birth.

Marty says Jesus scripturally did not exist as a sentient being before Mary and I say scripturally he did!

Since at times because of my business I cannot speedily get to the post like I want, some post often get lost and I do not see them.

I have been judged by others here for not responding and accused of lying, and dodging their post. But I can assure you that if I miss a post most of the time it is because I did not see it or I just simply see no point to continue going over the same thing with that person, or I may not care to engage because I feel the Spirits prompting not to.

Another thing is as you have noticed, Jack and I (the only Trinitarians at the moment) are way out numbered and when two or three began to get involved in a discussion we are having like with Marty and me, or Jack and Mike, then it makes it difficult to respond to all! We do have lives outside of HN!

Anyway, the preexistence of Jesus is one of the hottest debated subjects on this forum and the preexistent thread is proof of this being that there are over 600 pages now.

So because of the confusion of going through the pages to find Marty’s and my post I have brought this debate here in the debates thread.

Please, for all of those that would like to comment, do it in the preexistence thread.

Marty is a diligent and a worthy opponent who has spent many years studying the scriptures, and like myself is somewhat of a veteran on this sight. I respect him for his beliefs though we are totally apposed to each others beliefs.

So Marty, thanks for your continued patience and your willingness to discuss this topic in a civil manor without the usual patronizing and accusing spirit that is rampant on this forum.

As far as rules, I would say there are none except that we should be honest and sincere and respectful of each other.

Marty if you have anything to add to this please do so.

The format will simply be what we are doing already unless as I said you want to add any Ideas!

I will answer you shortly.

Blessings Keith

TO ALL—PLEASE DO NOT POST ON THIS THREAD

The following was taken from Here!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2010,10:02) Marty Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) No WJ: Not arguing, a servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle apt to teach. Good! Then why disagree with the scriptures? Jesus claim is that “HE” came down from heaven and is not from “Beneath” but from “Above” and that he is not of this world, therefore he is able to choose us “out of this world” how clear is that? Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) And so, your point is that Jesus said he came down from heaven and that he was going back to heaven. No that is Jesus point… And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23 AT Robertson states… I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi). The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger. “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31 Why do you not believe him? Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) And so, tell me how he came down from heaven.   Is the “he” that he is speaking of refer to his body, his soul and his spirit? That should be pretty obvious to you at this point. Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, 14 Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) Quote Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; This says “by whom also he(God) made the worlds, and Quote Genesis 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Ok, and just how did he do that by Jesus if he was not there? The writer didn’t’ say “by his plan, which is Jesus he made the worlds” did he? He said… …BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS; Then he confirms it in verse 10 of the same chapter through Jesus own hands! Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) And 1 Peter states that Jesus was fore-ordained: Quote 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, So what, he was “foreordained before the foundation of the world”, of course it was ordained by the Father and prophesied of his coming into the world. What does that prove? It doesn’t negate Jesus coming into this world, of which he was not of and returning back to where he came from, does it? And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had (Greek echō = to have [hold] in the hand) with thee” before the world was. John 17:3 There is that nasty word that you guys don't like again, “I“. N ot the Fathers plan or spoken words! Here we see the Greek word for **had** is in the 'active voice' meaning that Jesus literally was holding the Fathers Glory! Not some plan that cannot act on its own! Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Did you notice that the words “by the Plan or thoughts” all things were created are not there? How about… Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature: (Gr = Firstborn of All Creation) verse 15 AT Robertson states… The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men).” Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born). Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) Quote Hebrews 1:10 (King James Version) 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand?  This can only mean that Jesus was the reason that God created every thing. Marty, is it really that important for you to deny the clear meaning of the text in order to support you suppositions? Why would the Father speak of the works of “Jesus hands” if Jesus wasn’t there? Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) Otherwise, would Jesus not have known that he created every thing himself? Who says he didn’t know? It was John and Paul that wrote about “all things being made by him and without him nothing came into being”! John 1:3 – Col 1:16, 17 – Heb 1:2, 10 It was Jesus that gave them the Revelation by the Holy Spirit! Do you think the Holy Spirit knew this and Jesus didn't? He was in the world, and “THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM”, and the world knew him not. John 1:10   Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14) Jesus exists now, and thank God that he does, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person before his birth into this world. That is your opinion and not the opinion of the scriptures or the Apostles! Blessings WJ No, my Friend WJ: I am not arguing with scripture, and I am not arguing with you either.  Only, I do not agree with your intretation of scripture. The scriptures are clear that Jesus came from heaven.  His body was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. (You know the scriptures), and the Word of God that he obeyed also came from heaven as it was the Father dwelling within him that was speaking to humanity through him and that he was obeying.   I also am not of this world.  I am in this world just as he was in the world but he was not of this world and neither am I. Quote John 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world And you say that Hebrews 1:10 is a clear statement that Jesus hands created everything, but then you say that Jesus was in the form of God by virtue of your misinterpretation of Phillipians 2:6.  God does not have any literal hands.  The scripture state that He is a Spirit.  And so, God was speaking to him in the flesh and referring to his hands in that present moment of time, and as I said before there would not be any need for God to tell him this if he already knew that he created everything.  And Hebrews 1:2 indicates that He(God) created every thing, and so how does this lend to a clear statement that Jesus pre-existed? John 1:1 The “Logos” was with God in the beginning.  God had a plan before the world was created and that plan was to make man in his own image.  God made the first man like Himself in that the man was  a living soul, with a mind and a free will and emotions, and the Last Adam was made to be the express image of God's person through obedience to His Word. You quote the following to support your suppostion that Jesus pre-existed, but the verse says the world was made by him.  God made the worlds and every thing in them with him in mind. Quote John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not Where does this verse say that he pre-existed his birth into this world. The following verse states that Word of God was made flesh: Quote 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And the information in the brackets tell us that this is speaking of when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world from the virgin Mary. Quoting from Philippians 2: Quote 3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: By these scriptures the Apostle Paul was using Jesus to show us the example we should follow in humility.  Verse 6 is present tense “being in the form of God”, and is speaking of His ministry on this earth as God's Christ, and not in some pre-existing condition. What Apostle came out and said that Jesus pre-existed? The Apostle Peter said that he was fore-ordained, and my opinion that Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person is based on this scripture along with my understanding of the scriptures in general. And so, here is what one Apostle said: Quote John 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, As for the quote from A.T. Robertson, he is stating his opinion, and so why would you want to quote him as if he were an Apostle? Love in Christ, Marty

TO ALL BUT MARTY—PLEASE DO NOT POST ON THIS THREAD

Waiting for WJs response!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi T8

Could you edit the title? It should be… “Keith WorshippingJesus” with the caps!

Thanks Keith

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Marty

I am going to break up the post in two parts since it is fairly long!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

No, my Friend WJ: I am not arguing with scripture, and I am not arguing with you either.  Only, I do not agree with your intretation of scripture.

What interpretation? You are the one interpreting, for example Jesus said…

For “For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  . John 6:38

I take it like it reads, Jesus said “I – I – I – I” came down from heaven. Did you get the “I” part? Not a plan or a thought or a spoken word from God!

But, you are saying that he didn’t come down from Heaven, but the “word of God came down from heaven”. That is your own inference and interpretation!

Jesus also said…

What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62

I say he is going back to where is was before, (Heaven), but you say he wasn’t in heaven before, but the “word of God” was, making Jesus own claim, the word of God, of none effect!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

The scriptures are clear that Jesus came from heaven.

Come on Marty, that is simply double talk, for you say Jesus did not come down from Heaven but the “word of God” came down from heaven!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

His body was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. (You know the scriptures),

Yes I do and apparently the “Virgin birth” bears no significance to you!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

…and the Word of God that he obeyed also came from heaven as it was the Father dwelling within him that was speaking to humanity through him and that he was obeying.

 I thought “HE WAS”” the word of God that came down from heaven? But now you say that the word of God “ALSO” came from heaven which he “obeyed”! Have you thought this stuff through?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

I also am not of this world.  I am in this world just as he was in the world but he was not of this world and neither am I. Quote John 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world

“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL”. John 3:31

Are you above all Marty? Jesus point is clear and in fact he states it twice in the same verse in case you didn’t understand his first statement…

“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL” : “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL” : “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL”

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23

**I AM FROM ABOVE** (egw ek twn anw eimi)

The Greek word “From” is ‘ek’ which means 1) out of, from, by, away from. This statement is never used of any other in the scriptures but Jesus. So to claim that his origin is the same as ours because we are not of this world is a red herring because Jesus chose us “Out of this world”.

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but “I have chosen you ‘OUT OF’ (ek) the world”, therefore the world hateth you. John 15:19

**I AM FROM ABOVE** (egw ek twn anw eimi)

“I have chosen you ‘OUT OF’ (ek) the world ” Egō eklegomai hymas ek kosmos

As Jack would say… There it is. Jesus specifically says that he chose us “ek” out of,  or from the world.

The language ‘From above”, (ek anw), is never used in the scriptures for anyone but Jesus and on the flip side the language “out of or from the world”, (ek kosmos) is never used of Jesus!

This confirms Jesus words here…

“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “HE THAT IS OF THE EARTH IS EARTHLY“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31

Questions:

[Worshipping Jesus]

Part 2

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

And so, God was speaking to him in the flesh and referring to his hands in that present moment of time, and as I said before there would not be any need for God to tell him this if he already knew that he created everything.  And Hebrews 1:2 indicates that He(God) created every thing, and so how does this lend to a clear statement that Jesus pre-existed?

Marty you are circumventing and making no sense. Heb 1:2 says God by or through the Son made the worlds and then verse 10 he gives the Son credit for using his own hands!

What are you talking about when you say…“God was speaking to him in the flesh and referring to his hands in that present moment of time,” are you saying that Jesus created the Heavens and the earth with his flesh hands?

And, Thou, Lord, “in the beginning hast laid the foundation of THE EARTH; AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THINE HANDS”: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

If you are inferring the Unitarian position on this verse, then it is flawed because as you can see the writer is referring to the “BEGINNING, THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH AND HEAVENS WHICH WILL WAX OLD AND PERISH”.

That blows a big hole in the Unitarian position because it cannot be referring to the New Heavens and New Earth!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

John 1:1 The “Logos” was with God in the beginning.

Yes Marty, the Apostle is referring to the “Logos” not the spoken word of God.

Again, you are totally dodging the point I have made several times over that Jesus is called the “Logos”. Johns prologue in the Gospel of John was written 15-20 years after his heavenly vision in Rev 19:13 and his writing  1 John 1:1-3 where he calls Jesus “Word of life”.

Marty you recently said that the “word of God” is not the Holy Spirit!

You also claim that the “Holy Spirit” is the Father! So tell me Marty how can the “Word” (which you say is the spoken word of God) be God according to your view?

Don’t just quote part of the verse Marty…

In the beginning was the Word, and “the Word was with God”, and “THE WORD WAS GOD”. John 1:1

Please explain!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

God had a plan before the world was created and that plan was to make man in his own image.  God made the first man like Himself in that the man was  a living soul, with a mind and a free will and emotions, and the Last Adam was made to be the express image of God's person through obedience to His Word. You quote the following to support your suppostion that Jesus pre-existed, but the verse says the world was made by him.  God made the worlds and every thing in them with him in mind.

No Marty, the context is about the “Word that was with God and was God”, and now John is saying that the world did not know him even though the world was made by him which is a confirmation of John 1:3 that says nothing came into being without him!

You insult the intelligence of the Apostle by injecting a “plan” here rather than reading the simple and true meaning of the text! The pronouns are a dead giveaway to Johns meaning!

He was in the world, and “the world was made (ginomai) by him”, and “THE WORLD KNEW HIM NOT. John 1:10 Not the world was made by a “plan of God” and the world did not know that plan!

The Greek word for “made” is ‘ginomai’ which means come into existence.

It is in the the middle deponent form and in almost all cases are translated as being in the active voice, which means the subject is the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence. THIS MEANS THAT JESUS MADE THE WORLD THAT DID NOT KNOW HIM. Again, plans do not act on their own, and Jesus is the subject in John 1:10.

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

Quote John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not Where does this verse say that he pre-existed his birth into this world.

First of all Johns language implies it when he says…”He was in the world, and the world was made by him”, but if that is not enough for you then look at the first three verses of this chapter!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

The following verse states that Word of God was made flesh: Quote 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

No Marty, the text does not say that the “word of God” became flesh. It says the “Word” was made flesh and dwelt (tabernacled) among us and we beheld him! Not a plan or the “word of God”. Why do you have to twist the text?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

And the information in the brackets tell us that this is speaking of when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world from the virgin Mary.

So “the word of God” was conceived in Mary and became flesh?  

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

Quoting from Philippians 2: Quote 3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: By these scriptures the Apostle Paul was using Jesus to show us the example we should follow in humility.  Verse 6 is present tense “being in the form of God”, and is speaking of His ministry on this earth as God's Christ, and not in some pre-existing condition.

If it is “Present tense” then it cannot be referring to his earthly ministry for Paul wrote Philippians almost 30 years after Christ earthly ministry!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

What Apostle came out and said that Jesus pre-existed?

John and Paul for starters. But why did you stop at verse 6?

If Jesus was “in the form of God” during his earthly ministry then when did Jesus empty himself and was made in human likeness and found in fashion as a man?

Who, being in very nature [fn] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (held on to) but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, “BEING MADE IN HUMAN LIKENESS (John 1:1, 14). And “BEING FOUND IN APPEARANCE AS A MAN”, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8

Paul’s language is consistent with Johns!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

The Apostle Peter said that he was fore-ordained, and my opinion that Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person is based on this scripture along with my understanding of the scriptures in general. And so, here is what one Apostle said: Quote John 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This is a weak argument because Jesus being foreknown or foreordained to come into this world does not contradict the scriptures that clearly say “He” came down from heaven and that “He” was from above and not beneath. And that “He” was greater than all, and that “He” was not of this world, and that “He” was going to return to where he was before, to the Glory that “He” had before the world began and that before the world began “He” laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of “His” own hands!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 17 2010,20:24)

As for the quote from A.T. Robertson, he is stating his opinion, and so why would you want to quote him as if he were an Apostle? Love in Christ, Marty

Did I mention Apostle? No it is not just his opinion but is based on Greek Grammar. Are you not able to receive or learn from a world renowned Greek Grammarian? I hope so, and I hope that you have other sources besides your own ideas!

Thanks for your time!

Blessings WJ

[942767]

Hi Kieth my Friend:

Did you run out of ink or out of paper.

Tell me when Jesus said “I” came down from heaven to what was he referring?

Was he referring to his body, his soul, and his spirit?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Or are you saying that the “I” to which he was referring is the “I” that was in “the form of God” with God in the beginning and that he volunteered to become a man, and it is that person that was “in the form of God” that came down from heaven and was transformed into a man and is going back in this form where he was before to the former glory that he had before he volunteered to become a man?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Keith:

I really am not interested in debating this issue. It won't solve anything. You cannot prove that Jesus pre-existed his birth into this world, and we have already been over all of these issue that you are bringing forth again.

God ahead and teach that he pre-existed if that is what you believe. I do not, and so, I won't.

God Bless you and your family,
Love in Christ,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 22 2010,20:30)

Hi Kieth my Friend: Did you run out of ink or out of paper.   Tell me when Jesus said “I” came down from heaven to what was he referring? Was he referring to his body, his soul, and his spirit? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Is this a trick question?  Do you have to understand the scientific details of Jesus natural birth through a virgin before you can believe Jesus words?

What we do know is Jesus and the Apostles claim of where he came from. John 6:38 – John 6:62 – John 3:31 – John 8:23 – John 1:1, 14

What we do know is that he didn't have a flesh Body or “Tent” until the conception by the Holy Ghost in a virgin! Heb 10:5-7 – Matt 1:20 – John 1:1, 14 -1 John 1:1-3 – Rom 8:3 – Phil 2:6-8

And contextually what we do know is he was in the “Form of God” (God is a Spirit) before he came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Earthly Tent, 2 Cor 5:1-6) and was found in fashion as a man! John 1:1 – Phil 2:6

What we do know is Jesus said that he was going back to where he was before and the Glory he shared before the fouldation of the world! John 6:62 – John 17:5

What we do know is it was by him or through him that all things were created and without him nothing was made or came into being.! Gen 1:26 -John 1:1-3 – John 1:10 – Col 1:15-17 – Heb 1:2 – Heb 1:10 – Rev 3:14

What we do know is he was not of this world but from above and not beneath like every other man! John 3:31 – John 8:23 – John 18:36

What we do know is he is the “Word of life” that was with the Father in the beginning! John 1:1 – 1 John 1:1-3 – Rev 19:13

What we do know before Abraham was Jesus existed!  John 1:15 – John 1:30 – John 8:58 – Micah 5:2 – 1 Cor 10:4 – Jude 1:4, 5

And for more proof… click here

Blessings WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 23 2010,20:44)

Hi Keith: I really am not interested in debating this issue.  It won't solve anything.  You cannot prove that Jesus pre-existed his birth into this world, and we have already been over all of these issue that you are bringing forth again. God ahead and teach that he pre-existed if that is what you believe. I do not, and so, I won't. God Bless you and your family, Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Fair enough! You are right, we cannot make anyone see the scriptures the way we do. I do not really know anyone here on this forum that have changed in a major way what they believe!

We cannot prove to an unbeliever that God exist.

The Holy Spirit has to reveal to them that God does exist. So it is true of everyone of his people concerning any truth.

Everything written in scriptures are for instruction and reproof, but without the Spirit of God giving us revelation then we will be like the disciples on the road to Emmaus, (Luke 24:13-27) though Jesus himself showed them all the scriptures concerning himself from Moses to the Prophets yet they still did not know him.

My prayer is that all of Gods people will come to the Unity of the Faith. As we grow closer to the End I believe we will began to see more eye to eye.

Thanks for your time.

Blessings to you and yours, Keith

T8 you can lock this thread if you like!

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