Marriage

[Cubes]

Hi Guys:

Marriage or being married seems like a simple thing, men and women do it everyday and have done it since Eden and it would take place between the Groom and the Bride when Jesus returns. I must admit though that I don't know as much about it as I'd like.  What is it,   when and how does it begin biblically?

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The sexual act itself seems to bring about spiritual unity for those in Christ according to 1 Cor 6.15f.

Marriage is a declaration and a commitment before God and man and even the angels of our unity.

Did Adam marry Eve? Yet they are called man and wife.

[Cubes]

I agree, Nick.

Doesn't that pose a problem given that most marriages among Christians are not to virgins of either gender? Who are the real wives and husbands then? This excludes widows and widowers and those who have divorced as set forth by Jesus in scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The Sadducees quizzed Jesus over the woman with seven husbands. Yet he was not fazed and made it an issue of no concern. He also made no comment to the woman at the well about her many marriages though he did comment that she was not married to her current partner perhaps differentiating that aspect for us.

[MrBob]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2006,22:05)

He also made no comment to the woman at the well about her many marriages though he did comment that she was not married to her current partner perhaps differentiating that aspect for us.

Where? (I'm not being accusatory, just interested)

[NickHassan]

Hi MrBob,
Jn 4.18
“..for you have had 5 husbands; and the one you now have is not your husband..”

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,08:05)

Hi cubes, The Sadducees quizzed Jesus over the woman with seven husbands. Yet he was not fazed and made it an issue of no concern. He also made no comment to the woman at the well about her many marriages though he did comment that she was not married to her current partner perhaps differentiating that aspect for us.

Hi Nick:

The woman at the well… Jesus acknowledged her prior husbands.

Doesn't that raise the question of whether or not these marriages came about because she could rightly marry?

What I mean here is that according to Jesus, Moses authorized divorce out of frustration not that there really should have been such a thing.  It is why unlawful divorce results in adultery.  But this woman was not in adultery for her marriages were recognized by Jesus, so I could only think that she may have been widowed and/or divorced a number of times.

The current partner was not her husband:  it couldn't be merely due to ceremonial reasons (e.g. they didn't have the wedding), so I am thinking it must be due to an unlawful departure from her 5th husband to make the 6th relationship unlawful (and so not marital), since obviously that relationship also implies intimacy.

I think that this is an important topic, personally, because the christian community needs help in this department as in this regard, there doesn't appear to be any separation from the world and many struggle.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
If Jesus called them husbands surely they were legally married to the woman, who I would have thought had been widowed. Perhaps the curse spoken of in the apocryphal book of Tobit scared her off remarrying?
In two of the three accounts of Jesus discussing divorce it is said to be anathema, but in Matthew I think he says “adultery is an exception” or something like that. Similar to your thoughts about Moses. God loves the unity between spouses, however fraught with trial, as with the man in proverbs who would rather sleep on the roof. God hates divorce.

[malcolm ferris]

I CORINTHIANS 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

the act of physical union is considered by God as one flesh – a marraige, be it legitimate or not.

[Cubes]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 06 2006,11:10)

I CORINTHIANS 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. the act of physical union is considered by God as one flesh – a marraige, be it legitimate or not.

Hi Malcolm,

I agree.  

One Flesh translating to a marriage, yes provided there is no (prior) existing lawful (biblical i.e.) marriage.  Since Jesus considers the subsequent relationships in such a situation adulterous, except where stipulated otherwise.  I believe that the Catholic Church has been more willing to deal with this than has protestants.

IYHO, under these conditions above, is there a difference between adultery and fornication?  

I used to think there was but now I seem to stand corrected, if a physical union results in marriage.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,09:30)

Hi cubes, If Jesus called them husbands surely they were legally married to the woman, who I would have thought had been widowed. Perhaps the curse spoken of in the apocryphal book of Tobit scared her off remarrying? In two of the three accounts of Jesus discussing divorce it is said to be anathema, but in Matthew I think he says “adultery is an exception” or something like that. Similar to your thoughts about Moses. God loves the unity between spouses, however fraught with trial, as with the man in proverbs who would rather sleep on the roof. God hates divorce.

Hi Nick,

I am not familiar with the book of Tobit. Is it in the Catholic Scriptures?

Perhaps God through marriage shows us how much he bears with us. Didn't he do something similar with the prophet Hosea when he asked him to take a prostitute for a wife?

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
4205 pornos; fornicators, immoral and immoral men etc
from which derives
4204
porne; a prostitute, harlot
4203
porneuo;to commit fornication.
and
4202
porneia;fornication

So it seems it refers to what God does not recognise as a marriage relationship.

[Cubes]

Thanks Nick, that is helpful.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Cubes @ June 06 2006,19:50)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2006,09:30) Hi cubes, If Jesus called them husbands surely they were legally married to the woman, who I would have thought had been widowed. Perhaps the curse spoken of in the apocryphal book of Tobit scared her off remarrying? In two of the three accounts of Jesus discussing divorce it is said to be anathema, but in Matthew I think he says “adultery is an exception” or something like that. Similar to your thoughts about Moses. God loves the unity between spouses, however fraught with trial, as with the man in proverbs who would rather sleep on the roof. God hates divorce. Hi Nick, I am not familiar with the book of Tobit.  Is it in the Catholic Scriptures? Perhaps God through marriage shows us how much he bears with us.  Didn't he do something similar with the prophet Hosea when he asked him to take a prostitute for a wife?

Yes cubes,
If you put the word Tobit in a search engine it will come up.

[malcolm ferris]

Quote (Cubes @ June 06 2006,19:30)

Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 06 2006,11:10) I CORINTHIANS 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. the act of physical union is considered by God as one flesh – a marraige, be it legitimate or not. Hi Malcolm, I agree. One Flesh translating to a marriage, yes provided there is no (prior) existing lawful (biblical i.e.) marriage. Since Jesus considers the subsequent relationships in such a situation adulterous, except where stipulated otherwise. I believe that the Catholic Church has been more willing to deal with this than has protestants. IYHO, under these conditions above, is there a difference between adultery and fornication? I used to think there was but now I seem to stand corrected, if a physical union results in marriage.

Hi Cubes

No difference, I would say that Marraige is a legitimate marraige and Fornication or harlotry is an illigitimate marraige.

One is blessed by God and one is cursed.

The woman at the well was collecting her water at a time differing from the rest of the women of the village who would have all collected theirs earlier, this indicates her position of ill fame.
At least that is what I understand, can anyone familiar with the eastern customs of the day either confirm or refute this, would appreciate the feedback.

[Cubes]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 07 2006,10:16)

Quote (Cubes @ June 06 2006,19:30) Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 06 2006,11:10) I CORINTHIANS 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. the act of physical union is considered by God as one flesh – a marraige, be it legitimate or not. Hi Malcolm, I agree.   One Flesh translating to a marriage, yes provided there is no (prior) existing lawful (biblical i.e.) marriage.  Since Jesus considers the subsequent relationships in such a situation adulterous, except where stipulated otherwise.  I believe that the Catholic Church has been more willing to deal with this than has protestants. IYHO, under these conditions above, is there a difference between adultery and fornication?   I used to think there was but now I seem to stand corrected, if a physical union results in marriage. Hi Cubes No difference, I would say that Marraige is a legitimate marraige and Fornication or harlotry is an illigitimate marraige. One is blessed by God and one is cursed.

Hi Malcolm,

Here's a puzzler.  We have not discussed “concubines.”  They are not wives but are in open relationships with these men.  They are “mistresses,” I imagine. David on the other hand had multiple wives, did he not, apart from any concubines?

Where is the hair scratching smilie?!

OK… the situation with Sarah and Hagar didn't work out and God ruled in favor of Sarah so Hagar and Ishmael had to leave, God creating another inheritance just for Ishmael elsewehre and making him great and giving him princes and princesses through his own lineage.  Isaac was the sole and recognized inheritor therefore of Abraham's allotment as Jacob was of Isaac's… In these two particular situations, establishing the lineage of the Christ.  

Jacob had TWO wives plus their two maids (?Bilnah and Zilpah) who were recognized concubines, though at the suggestion and approval of the wives!  The sons of the concubines were fully counted and given equal allotments in Israel.  In fact, they together make up the twelve tribes of Israel.  I am thinking that this would have happened with Hagar and Ishmael had Hagar not become insolent with Sarah, though the promised seed was always to Sarah and so would have been always through Isaac.

David had a few wives…among who were his first, the daughter of Saul and sister of Jonathan; also Abigail, and later on Bethsheba (who always retained association with her first husband Uriah even in the NT)…. I find it most interesting that God chose Bethsheba to be a matriach of the Christ, among the other wives and I'd like to believe that it was his way of approving of and blessing Uriah and also affirming Bethsheba's innocence through the process, even compensating her.

Solomon had three hundred WIVES, followed by the 700 concubines!  What protocol separates wife from wives and wive(s) from concubines, especially if the children of concubines are also acknowledged and given equal billing as in the case of the twelve of Jacob?

I believe that in Nehemiah, some of the Levites let go of the non-jewish (religion) wives that they brought with them.  However Paul instructs in the NT that we are to remain with our non-believing spouses unless they elect to leave.

What of the case of an individual who had multiple wives (and concubines) prior to becoming a Christian and understanding the way of Christ?  What is such a one to do with his EXTRA spouses?  Does he keep them or let them go?

—***—

For those already in Christ, we know that the standard is what was originally set in Eden, which Christ confirmed still in Matthew 19:4.  It would seem to me then that we are not to be so quick to neglect the FIRST causes and examples of godliness in scripture, particularly those that come BEFORE the law was given.  I have not done this but would endeavor to note instances in the NT where such examples are affirmed, abolished, revised or whatever.  I believe it would help us in the over all understanding of the will of God.  This would help answer questions such as whether or not christians should abstain from blood still, engage in warfare and some of the one's we've been wrestling with.  

In this particular scenario concerning marriage, Jesus defaulted back to the origins of Eden, bypassing all other subsequent examples, which is straightforward and clear cut to answer our questions.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The NT generally refers to wife in the singular and in Timothy and Titus there are guidelines that a man should only have one wife in positions of leadership. It makes sense that the origins of man involved only one man and one woman. There is strength in that unity that was intended and further relationships threaten that unity. Jealousy is one of the most potent causes of strife.

But Paul also points out that the relationship of Man with God is also divided even by having only one wife.

1Cor 7.32f
“But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about things of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided..”

Adam fell because he listened to his wife and not his God [Gen 3.17].

[Cubes]

Hi Nick,

I agree, though I might add that conversely, the a woman may fare better in the Lord's interest being voluntarily unmarried, no?

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Is there a difference?
1Cor 7.34f
“And the woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but the one who is married is concerned about things of the world, how she may please her husband”

Seems the same almost though in a christian marriage the wife is under the authority of her husband who is under Christ who is under God.

[malcolm ferris]

Hmm concubines yes, there have been many cases of 'spiritual' men instituting polygamy in their own versions of Abrahamic 'truth'. Most end up being exposed as meglamaniacle control freaks with a serious God complex. Why did God allow multiple spouses in days past? We can speculate I suppose. Perhaps to help perpetuate the righteous seed more rapidly? I don't know really. I do know that in the Bride there are many individual virgins, perhaps it was to allow a natural typology. I also know that the original institution of Marraige was for one partner. Also this is restated in the NT. Another thing to consider is that although polygamy was allowed by God it was only one-way polygamy. The woman was not allowed many husbands. Which also fits well into the typology of the NT.

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