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Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,05:51) Did Yeshua say he was the way, truth and life, but also say one had to accept him as Lord and Savior? That is what we have been taught, but is there any reality in scripture behind this?
Hi KJ,
No.
There is no door called accepting Jesus.
It is the most popular false gospel.
You must be born again.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,05:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,12:32) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,02:40) I agree with Mandy about truth as it pertains to faith: truth is totally subjective. It is not like the truth of gravity or the properties of water because there are billions of people running around believing their own version of the truth. Who is right? Well, unless you can convince someone otherwise, they are. To themselves at least. At the same time, you will think you have truth.
I've given up on such a notion some time back. To tell people I know the truth of God is not based on reality.
Years ago I visited an atheist to tell him about Yeshua. My partner started getting angry about some of the things the atheist was saying but I did not. Why? Because I could tell from his mannerisms and answers that he truly did not believe in God. Certainly not Yeshua! So the atheist, at least in his own heart and mind, felt he had the truth every bit as much as I did.
My boss told me the story of working with a Muslim. The Muslim was a very kind person and very devout in his observances. He asked my boss one day “do you think I am going to hell?” My boss could not look this man in the eye and say yes. He said “here was a man who was much more serious than me in serving his God. How could I tell him he was wrong and headed to hell”.
However, when my boss could not answer, the other man said “You are not being honest. Your religion says that if I do not accept Jesus then I will go to hell. Why do you not stand up for what you believe in?”
There are many religions in the world. Why do Christians think they have a monopoly on the truth? Just because our heart tells us so? What of the Jew whose heart tells him his faith is the true faith? The Hindu? The Muslim? Can we justify telling them they are all wrong and we know the real truth? What basis do we have?
Hi KJ,
Democracy gone mad.
We, who are in Christ, do have the truth and it is defined as the Word of God
The one who is truth and who offers us the Spirit of truth as well told us in Jn17.17.
No where does the bible say that all who are not in Jesus go to”hell”?
Our God is a God of mercy to the downtrodden and the merciful.It is my belief that far more will enter the kingdom by His mercy than through the way.
Nick,Aren't what you saying here a reflection of your own truth? In other words, you will say the Bible is the true word of God, while another religion will make the same claim about their texts. So just by you repeating your own personal belief, you have not really given verifiable truth, just what is true to you.
Sorta like Stu's garden fairies — although I'm pretty sure he doesn't believe in any fairies
.
Hi KJ,
Why have you been overcome by doubts such that you feel there is no way and no truth and no life, that all religion leads to God and that falsehood does not exist?James 1 says things about doubt.
It is the greatest enemy of God's servants.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,06:03) Even Paul admitted that faith-based truth was subjective: - Rom 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
Hi Stu,
Do you think we should apply this principle to all scripture so that truth all becomes a matter of opinion?
That is the basis of denominations.
Christ is not divided.Brother Nick,
Quote We, who are in Christ, do have the truth and it is defined as the Word of God
I have come to believe, as of late, that the words Word of God and Definition are oxymorons.'If truth must be found in the Word of God, which is not definite on anything, all I can say is God help us!
Quote The one who is truth and who offers us the Spirit of truth as well told us in Jn17.17.
I was speaking with Paul (Isaiah 1:18) last night about truth. He has determined that there is only ONE truth. Do you believe this as well? If indeed the “Spirit of truth” lives in you as it lives in Paul, why the division? Why is the truth that you believe so different from the truth that Paul is convinced of?Paul wasn't willing to name names of those who do not have the truth, anymore than he was willing to say he had the truth and you did not. He was however, willing to offer that one of you is misled. So, which of you doesn't have the truth? Will the real truth-holder please stand up!
Hi n3,
Why did Paul appeal for unity in the body of Christ?
Because reborn sons must work towards it from what is given as truth-Jn17.17.
We must be transformed by renewal of our hearts and minds, giving way to the revealed truth of the Bible.
We all must pursue this aim for the sake of Christ and then we will have unity.
God requires it of us.Nick,
But how can you have unity with so many divergent beliefs? Lets' just take the trinity as an example. In an effort to become unified, should believers who have different views about the nature of God simply ignore matters such as this so that they can become unified? Or do you suggest compromise?
With almost 1000 pages on the trinity, how can you espouse any unity when your posts are found on many of those pages in a spirit of opposition to those who do not agree with your version of the truth?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,06:56) Hi n3,
Why did Paul appeal for unity in the body of Christ?
Because reborn sons must work towards it from what is given as truth-Jn17.17.
We must be transformed by renewal of our hearts and minds, giving way to the revealed truth of the Bible.
We all must pursue this aim for the sake of Christ and then we will have unity.
God requires it of us.
I'll say it again, TRUTH eludes us all…..But I understand what you are driving at. You, along with Isaiah are working towards truth, is this correct? As you both renew your hearts and minds, this truth will come to you both and then I presume there will be unity; a meeting of the minds. But the bottom line is that one of you is wrong today. How do we find out which one of you is heading for hell in a hand-basket?
Hi KJ,
Dead easy.
The Spirit wrote the bible through men.
If everyone in Christ devoted themselves to prayerful bible study
Taking the same approach to it Jesus had, ie it is THE truth and cannot be broken
And built knowledge and resolved difficulties by comparing verses with verses
And accepting some things remain still unresolvable for now
We would soon come to unity.
In Christ
It is the addition of speculative logic and worldly wisdom that men prefer unfortunately.Quote And accepting some things remain still unresolvable for now Yes and until then we are still one in Christ. Many members same body.
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 10 2008,14:24) Quote And accepting some things remain still unresolvable for now Yes and until then we are still one in Christ. Many members same body.
But how does the body function if the right leg moves forward and the left leg goes to the right? As it stands, the body of Christ is like an epilleptic going through continous seizures. This is not an insult but it is reality.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,14:12) Hi KJ,
Dead easy.
The Spirit wrote the bible through men.
If everyone in Christ devoted themselves to prayerful bible study
Taking the same approach to it Jesus had, ie it is THE truth and cannot be broken
And built knowledge and resolved difficulties by comparing verses with verses
And accepting some things remain still unresolvable for now
We would soon come to unity.
In Christ
It is the addition of speculative logic and worldly wisdom that men prefer unfortunately.
Still Nick, you are not offering anything more than your opinion. You say the Holy Bible is the word of God while a Muslim would disagree with you. Other than in your own mind, how can you refute the opposition?Hi KJ,
We in Christ all must seek to work out our own salvation.[Phil2]
We each have a place and each must fulfill their role[1Cor12]
Only you can straighten your shaky knees[heb 12]
The others are not our business[Jn21]Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,07:28) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 10 2008,14:24) Quote And accepting some things remain still unresolvable for now Yes and until then we are still one in Christ. Many members same body.
But how does the body function if the right leg moves forward and the left leg goes to the right? As it stands, the body of Christ is like an epilleptic going through continous seizures. This is not an insult but it is reality. If you are sitting and move your left foot must your right foot move also?
We are ALL different members of the body. BUT still one body in Christ.
(I'm still laughing) Because I said that not long ago! Anyway maybe the body of Christ is still developing and when full grown that's when Jesus will come back.
Meanwhile satan is not going to wait around for this to happen.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,07:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,14:12) Hi KJ,
Dead easy.
The Spirit wrote the bible through men.
If everyone in Christ devoted themselves to prayerful bible study
Taking the same approach to it Jesus had, ie it is THE truth and cannot be broken
And built knowledge and resolved difficulties by comparing verses with verses
And accepting some things remain still unresolvable for now
We would soon come to unity.
In Christ
It is the addition of speculative logic and worldly wisdom that men prefer unfortunately.
Still Nick, you are not offering anything more than your opinion. You say the Holy Bible is the word of God while a Muslim would disagree with you. Other than in your own mind, how can you refute the opposition?
Hi KJ,
You cannot give anyone faith.
You know the word is truth.Don't let the missionaries of doubt shake your confidence.
I must say they are proving remarkably effective here.
But you have a hope settled in what is writtenQuote (kenrch @ Jan. 10 2008,14:35) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,07:28) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 10 2008,14:24) Quote And accepting some things remain still unresolvable for now Yes and until then we are still one in Christ. Many members same body.
But how does the body function if the right leg moves forward and the left leg goes to the right? As it stands, the body of Christ is like an epilleptic going through continous seizures. This is not an insult but it is reality. If you are sitting and move your left foot must your right foot move also?
No, but aren't we supposed to be moving forward in our walk? We can strive to do so individually, but as you say, Christians are to be one body with one mind. Yet we know that is far from the truth.
Quote We are ALL different members of the body. BUT still one body in Christ. (I'm still laughing) Because I said that not long ago! Right concept, wrong application. Our own physical bodies are made up of different parts but they work in unison to enable us to live. So the different parts reflect members with different gifts and tasks. If two members are “legs”, to walk properly one must move after the other in the same direction. Is that happening in the body of Christ?
Quote Anyway maybe the body of Christ is still developing and when full grown that's when Jesus will come back. Meanwhile satan is not going to wait around for this to happen.
Sure it will be developing but as it stands, each day sees more division. The first Jewish Christians were of one mind. But it didn't take long for that to change, did it?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,07:39) You know the word is truth. Don't let the missionaries of doubt shake your confidence.
I must say they are proving remarkably effective here.
But you have a hope settled in what is written
With all due respect, this reminds me of a senario that might have been played out on the Titanic, it goes like this:Two men are hanging on for dear life as the water approaches to swallow them. One of the men says to the other, “Don't doubt! They said this boat is unsinkable! Just believe what has been said about this ship!” The other man answers, “Gulp, gulp…..”, and then silence.
Does merely believing make it true? Does saying the Word of God (the Bible) is truth make it the ruler by which we measure ALL truth? If this is the case, why can it be read by you and then read by Isaiah and you both come out of the reading room with two different truths?
This tells me that the ruler for measurement cannot be trusted.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2008,14:39) Hi KJ,
You cannot give anyone faith.
You know the word is truth.
You're still missing my point Nick. To you faith says that the Bible is true. To the Muslim, faith says the Koran is true. To the Mormon, the Book of Mormon is true. And so forth. Why are you right and they wrong? What gives you the authority to make that life decision?Quote Don't let the missionaries of doubt shake your confidence.
I must say they are proving remarkably effective here.
But you have a hope settled in what is written
I had these thoughts long before Tow and Stu (Tow Stu, sounds like a bad soup).Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,07:42) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 10 2008,14:35) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2008,07:28) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 10 2008,14:24) Quote And accepting some things remain still unresolvable for now Yes and until then we are still one in Christ. Many members same body.
But how does the body function if the right leg moves forward and the left leg goes to the right? As it stands, the body of Christ is like an epilleptic going through continous seizures. This is not an insult but it is reality. If you are sitting and move your left foot must your right foot move also?
No, but aren't we supposed to be moving forward in our walk? We can strive to do so individually, but as you say, Christians are to be one body with one mind. Yet we know that is far from the truth.
Quote We are ALL different members of the body. BUT still one body in Christ. (I'm still laughing) Because I said that not long ago! Right concept, wrong application. Our own physical bodies are made up of different parts but they work in unison to enable us to live. So the different parts reflect members with different gifts and tasks. If two members are “legs”, to walk properly one must move after the other in the same direction. Is that happening in the body of Christ?
Quote Anyway maybe the body of Christ is still developing and when full grown that's when Jesus will come back. Meanwhile satan is not going to wait around for this to happen.
Sure it will be developing but as it stands, each day sees more division. The first Jewish Christians were of one mind. But it didn't take long for that to change, did it?
So you are saying the body is trying to crawl back into the womb.
Sure in the first century how big was the body? Remember when your child started walking why did he/she fall? Then when starting to run~ again~ the fall.
We scrape our knees but we still walk.
Like Nick said no one can give you or anyone faith.
We should keep every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 11 2008,07:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,07:39) You know the word is truth. Don't let the missionaries of doubt shake your confidence.
I must say they are proving remarkably effective here.
But you have a hope settled in what is written
With all due respect, this reminds me of a senario that might have been played out on the Titanic, it goes like this:Two men are hanging on for dear life as the water approaches to swallow them. One of the men says to the other, “Don't doubt! They said this boat is unsinkable! Just believe what has been said about this ship!” The other man answers, “Gulp, gulp…..”, and then silence.
Does merely believing make it true? Does saying the Word of God (the Bible) is truth make it the ruler by which we measure ALL truth? If this is the case, why can it be read by you and then read by Isaiah and you both come out of the reading room with two different truths?
This tells me that the ruler for measurement cannot be trusted.
Hi N3,
Yes faith is a huge risk.
Ready yet?
sigh
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