Man, all mortal or just his body?

Participant

Here are two scriptures of which tell me ALL of man is mortal.

Eccl 9:5 -the dead know nothing.

Eccl 9:10 – whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

The mind and body of man BOTH dies, why wouldn't it since the mind is part of the brain.

Please share your view and give scriptures.

July 15, 2009 at 3:21 pm#137664

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 16 2009,02:49)

Here are two scriptures of which tell me ALL of man is mortal.

Eccl 9:5 -the dead know nothing.

Eccl 9:10 – whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

The mind and body of man BOTH dies, why wouldn't it since the mind is part of the brain.

Please share your view and give scriptures.

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Psa 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the [Elohiym] angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

See “Oikeeteerion” [Strong's #3613]

Though God created Adam in flesh, it was never his intention that flesh and blood would inherit a kingdom intended for spiritual inhabitants. Indeed, he stands ready to exchange our clothing of flesh and mortality for an eternal clothing of incorruption and immortality. [II Cor 5:1-4]

It was always God's plan to provide a “way of escape” for flesh, so his creation could be justified from a spiritual perspective rather than from a fleshly one, “For in thy sight shall no man living be justified.” [Psa 143:2]

God originally created two types of spiritual beings; one he called “Elohiym,” [Psa 8:5] who were clothed in “oikeeteerion” [Jude 6]; the other he called “Man,” who, clothed in corruptible mortal flesh, waits to be clothed upon from heaven with that same “oikeeteerion.” [II Cor 5:1-2]

For man to be clothed with oikeeteerion REQUIRES more than original creation by which he was “clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life [II Cor 5:1-2]; it requires in fact, first, a “putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” [Col 2:11]; and we are counted as circumcised with Christ, who are baptized into Christ, wherein we also rise with him. [Col 2:12]

Jesus was the first man raised from the dead; the first to “Put on immortality;” The first to “Put on incorruption; the first fruit of them that slept ; the first born from the dead [Col 1:18]; firstborn among many brethren [Rom 8:29]; and therefore was the first man to both die and not see corruption, and the first man to put on the oikeeteerion which is from heaven, and which is worn by the elohiym.

Paul tells us we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ [Gal 3:27] and if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection [Rom 6:5]; which we attain in baptism [Rom 6:3-4]; it remains for us to so live that it is no longer I that lives, but Christ living in me [Gal 2:20]. Any man in Christ is a “new creature.” [II Cor 5:17]

With Christ as our high priest, and we being in Christ, a priesthood , God expects us to crucify our flesh in living sacrifice with Christ [Gal 2:20][Rom 12:1-2] So that as Christ in the world we may present ourselves justified by the blood of the crucified Christ, by our faith therein, by the grace of the God who designed the plan, the logos.

I Cor 15:
42 “It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption;
43 “It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory;
It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power;
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

I Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

II Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

II Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

II Cor 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

II Cor 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

I Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Jude 6
not having kept
mee teereesantas = terew (maintain, keep [5083])
opposite apollumi (forfeit, lose [622])

having deserted
apolipontas = apoleipw [620] desert, abandon

Angels not only failed to maintain or keep rule over themselves (did not maintain self-control), they actively abandoned their oikeeteerion. [3613]

II Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our oikeeteerion (house) which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

II Cor 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

I Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Jude 5-6 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own oikeeteerion [habitation], he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

II Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to tartarwsa [hell], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

II Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house o
f this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our oikeeteerion [house] which is from heaven:

II Cor 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

I Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Gen 1-2 God created Adam and Eve, male and female he created them and placed them in the garden of Eden, and instructed them that they could freely eat of every tree except one in the midst of the garden (2:9). But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were forbidden access thereunto, being warned that “in the day that thou shalt eat thereof thou shalt surely die.”

Gen 6 After developing the account of the fall of man and his consequent expulsion from Eden, God begins the story of man's ultimate failure to survive in a moral setting; having become involved with the abomination of mixing with angels in unholy marriages. [6:1-8]

Satan's attempt to counterfeit God's plan for salvation through an intermingling arrangement of marriage and begetting of a hybrid race, was defeated by God's action of flooding the Earth and destroying the demonic offspring by water.

Gen 6:1-2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

II Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

II Pet 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

II Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

July 15, 2009 at 5:03 pm#137669

Participant

Hi Paladin,

You said, “Gen 6 After developing the account of the fall of man and his consequent expulsion from Eden, God begins the story of man's ultimate failure to survive in a moral setting; having become involved with the abomination of mixing with angels in unholy marriages. [6:1-8]”

Genesis 6 speaks of NO mixing with angels. It speaks of righteous men intermarrying with beautiful woman, and then those woman corrupting the righteous men.

6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

An unholy marriage was when MEN went after the desires of their OWN flesh and decided to marry wicked woman because they could not contain themselves for they were so beautiful.

This was a test given by God to show just how weak man's flesh is. God HAD said man is indeed flesh and His Spirit would not strive in man forever. Imagine back in the day all of a sudden a race of woman were born more exceedingly beautiful then all woman before, righteous men are still men in the flesh and those woman drew them away from God with their beauty.

The story repeatedly and exclusively speaks of MEN and FLESH, not angels breeding with woman and making half breeds.

Genesis 4:6 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous. 13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.

NOTE: There is NO “ONE” in the above verse it was added, it should merely read Cain was wicked, and why was he wicked, because HIS works were evil.

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

WHO was a liar and a murderer from the beginning? Cain, and why because of HIS OWN resources, because HIS OWN works were evil, because the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth.

YLT Jude 1:3 Beloved, all diligence using to write to you concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you, exhorting to agonize for the faith once delivered to the saints, 4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord — Jesus Christ — denying, 5 and to remind you I intend, you knowing once this, that the Lord, a people out of the land of Egypt having saved, again those who did not believe did destroy; 6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept, 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before — an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

Jude 1 is talking about MEN in every example. What men long ago where false messengers left God and His word and turned towards their own imaginations?

Jer 14:14 And the Lord said to me, “The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart.

Jer 23:14 Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem: They commit adultery and walk in lies; They also strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one turns back from his wickedness. All of them are like Sodom to Me, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.

16 Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; They speak a vision of their own heart, Not from the mouth of the Lord. 17 They continually say to those who despise Me, 'The Lord has said, “You shall have peace” '; And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say, 'No evil shall come upon you.' ” 18 For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it? 19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord has gone forth in fury– A violent whirlwind! It will fall violently on the head of the wicked. 20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly. 21 “I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22 But if they had stood in My counsel, And had caused My people to hear My words, Then they would have turned them from their evil way And from the evil of their doings.

Jer 23:25 “I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, 'I have dreamed, I have dreamed!'

Jer 23:26 How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart,

Eze 13:9 My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies; they shall not be in the assembly of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter into the land of Israel. Then you shall
know that I am the Lord God.

Eze 22:28 Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, 'Thus says the Lord God,' when the Lord had not spoken.

July 15, 2009 at 6:28 pm#137680

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 16 2009,05:03)

How would you feel if I told you “all men were men of God and all women were evil,” you would think I was nuts.

Well THAT is what I think of those who claim that “sons of God” were righteous men and daughters of men were evil women.

The expression “sons of God” is only found in five places in scripture, three in Job and two in Genesis six. There is NO reference to “sons of God” being righteous men, but there are references to “sons of God” being angels. And with no input from scripture telling me otherwise, I shall continue to apply the term that way.

Genesis 6 speaks of NO mixing with angels. It speaks of righteous men intermarrying with beautiful woman, and then those woman corrupting the righteous men. [/quote]

Explain then the reference to “angels” by Peter when he references the wickedness taking place in the days of Noah.
II Pet 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;”

July 15, 2009 at 7:54 pm#137687

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 16 2009,02:49)

Here are two scriptures of which tell me ALL of man is mortal.

Eccl 9:5 -the dead know nothing.

Eccl 9:10 – whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

The mind and body of man BOTH dies, why wouldn't it since the mind is part of the brain.

Please share your view and give scriptures.

Hi Jodi,
So your mind is a part of your brain.
Which part?

July 15, 2009 at 8:32 pm#137692

Participant

Hi Paladin,

Jeremiah 23:9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness. 10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right. 11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. 18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? 19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. 20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. 21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. 23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. 25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. 28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. 29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

2 Peter 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction, 2 and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,

3 and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber. 4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved, 5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought, 6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set [them];

7 and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue, 8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing. 9 The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,

10 and chiefly those going behind the flesh in desire of uncleanness, and lordship despising; presumptuous, self-complacent, dignities they are not afraid to speak evil of, 11 whereas messengers, in strength and power being greater, do not bear against them before the Lord an evil speaking judgment; 12 and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed — in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil — in their destruction shall be destroyed, 13 about to receive a reward of unrighteousness, pleasures counting the luxury in the day, spots and blemishes, luxuriating in their deceits, feasting with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery, and unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having an heart exercised in covetousnesses, children of a curse, 15 having forsaken a right way, they did go astray, having followed in the way of Balaam the [son] of Bosor, who a reward of unrighteousness did love, 16 and had a rebuke of his own iniquity — a dumb ass, in man's voice having spoken, did forbid the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, and clouds by a tempest driven, to whom the thick gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept; 18 for overswellings of vanity speaking, they do entice in desires of the flesh — lasciviousnesses, those who had truly escaped from those conducting themselves in error, 19 liberty to them promising, themselves being servants of the corruption, for by whom any one hath been overcome, to this one also he hath been brought to servitude, 20 for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first, 21 for it were better to them not to have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, than having acknowledged it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them, 22 and happened to them hath that of the true similitude; `A dog did turn back upon his own vomit,' and, `A sow having bathed herself — to rolling in mire.'

Once again look at Genesis 6

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Tell me Paladin do God's angels have human penises and human sperm, that they could fertilize a woman's egg, and create men?

The son's of God were men. Noah and Enoch were righteous men who walked with God, they were son's of God. The beautiful daughters were born to unrighteous men, who did not walk with God.

De 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead

I have more scriptures but I am out of time and will have to get back to this later on tonight.

July 15, 2009 at 8:52 pm#137696

Participant

Hi Jodi,
So you must transform your brain?[Rom12]

July 15, 2009 at 8:53 pm#137698

Participant

Hi Jodi,
Do you hope to have the BRAIN of Christ?

July 15, 2009 at 9:23 pm#137704

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 16 2009,08:32)

Hi Paladin,

Once again look at Genesis 6

Tell me Paladin do God's angels have human penises and human sperm, that they could fertilize a woman's egg, and create men?

The son's of God were men. Noah and Enoch were righteous men who walked with God, they were son's of God. The beautiful daughters were born to unrighteous men, who did not walk with God.

De 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead

I have more scriptures but I am out of time and will have to get back to this later on tonight.

Why are you trying to justify preflood conditions with postflood scriptures? Is Jeremiah speaking of preflood conditions?

Peter was, and that is why I quoted Peter. And it was Peter who referenced the angels that sinned. And his reference was to the days of Noah. It is PETER who brings us together with the angels in the days of Noah.

Jeremiah is simply showing the frustration man has with righteousness. That has NOTHING to do with man's struggle before the flood.

Or maybe it is the angels you are having trouble with? Is it difficult for you to accept the concept they were cohabiting with women?

They abandoned their oikeeteerion, making them subject to death, which is why God flooded the earth. Man hopes to inherit that same oikeeteerion that the angels abandoned.

How do you get any of this to make sense with “sons of God”
in Gen 6 being men? What then was Peter referencing? Who were the “spirits in prison” that Jesus went to visit in I Pet 3:19, if not the “Sons of God” angels?

July 16, 2009 at 5:03 pm#137782

http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b01immortality/1peter3v19.html

Participant

Yes I have a MAJOR problem with angels having sex with humans that is paganism at it's hightest level and superstition at it's worst IMO. Angels breeding with humans annoys me to the bone, it's ridiculous, and absurd. It is the very thing that reasonable minded people deny Christianity, because they hear such absolute nonsense and want to have nothing to do with demented fantasy fairy tails.

What preflood 'conditions' are you talking about?

Before flood- 4:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

After flood- 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

The 'conditions' of man before and after the flood, are that without God's Spirit working in man, man is left with his own imagination, and that imagination can produce wicked ways.

Peter brings us to False prophets and evil people who DRAW others AWAY from righteousness, which is EXACTLY what the daughters did to the sons of God, which was draw men away by their extreme beauty because of man's lusting eyes, because ‘the Spirit of God cannot strive in man forever because he is indeed FLESH.’

2 Peter 2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved, 5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought, 6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them;

The speaking of Noah and the old world is totally separate. The scripture is not referring to God's messengers sinning DURING the TIME of Noah. Just like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are not speaking of the TIMES before the flood. There are three SEPARATE examples, during three SEPARATE time periods, with the message that God will destroy the wicked. 2 Peter 2 goes on to say how men can cause other men to turn away from the Lord.

We can go back and read about 2 Peter 2 reference to the wicked MEN during the flood in the OT, we can go back to the OT and read 2 Peter 2 reference to what happened to the wicked MEN at Sodom and Gomorrah, and we can go back and read in Jeremiah 23 about the messengers of God who sinned and gave false revelations in the house of God to the Israelites turning them to wickedness.

Paladin this is what I find disgusting, the very thing that Christians hope for, you turn into something that others would just throw away for beautiful girls. Totally repulsive. When we receive immortality that is when we will be fully united with God's Spirit, our flesh will NO LONGER have us in chains to serve it, we will be FREE in every way to serve God. The corruptible flesh will put on incorruptible flesh, and DEATH will be swallowed up in victory, no longer holding people in subjection to the fear of death. Do you honesty think angels in heaven are going to throw away their immortality for beautiful girls, what a dishonor to God, making his glory of eternal life, out to be something other created creatures make no value of.

Is your next argument going to be that Peter wrote things in chronological order, so the first example had to occur prior to the flood?

I believe the sinful messengers are listed first because that is the primary warning the chapter is talking about as that is how it begins and ends, with warning about false messengers, and being drawn away into wickedness.

2 Peter 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction, 2 and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,

2:20 for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first, 21 for it were better to them not to have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, than having acknowledged [it], to turn back from the holy command delivered to them, 22 and happened to them hath that of the true similitude; `A dog did turn back upon his own vomit,' and, `A sow having bathed herself — to rolling in mire.'

The dead know nothing, according to scripture and the spirit of man returns to God upon death.

1 Peter 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer — righteous for unrighteous — that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, 20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah — an ark being preparing — in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; 21 also to which an antitype doth now save us — baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone on to heaven — messengers, and authorities, and powers, having been subjected to him.

The spirits in prison who were preached to therefore were ALIVE. I think the following link explains it well. It is from a Christadelphian website, and in case you’re wondering, I am NOT a Christadelphian, but I believe that they have several things right when it comes to understanding scripture. Just like I believe you Paladin have many things right as well, however not in the case obviously of Genesis 6. The Christadelphians did not teach me about part of man not being immortal. That has been a firm belief I have always had on my own, they have just helped me to understand more clearly difficult scriptures.

July 16, 2009 at 5:08 pm#137784

Participant

1Ch 24:19 This was the schedule of their service for coming into the house of the Lord according to their ordinance by the hand of Aaron their father, as the Lord God of Israel had commanded him.

2Ch 24:18 Therefore they left the house of the Lord God of their fathers, and served wooden images and idols; and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem because of their trespass.

2Ch 29:5 and said to them: “Hear me, Levites! Now sanctify yourselves, sanctify the house of the Lord God of your fathers, and carry out the rubbish from the holy place.

Matthew 21:12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.' ”

Psalms 26:6 I will wash my hands in innocence; So I will go about Your altar, O Lord, 7 That I may proclaim with the voice of thanksgiving, And tell of all Your wondrous works. 8 Lord, I have loved the habitation of Your house, And the place where Your glory dwells. 9 Do not gather my soul with sinners, Nor my life with bloodthirsty men, 10 In whose hands is a sinister scheme, And whose right hand is full of bribes. 11 But as for me, I will walk in my integrity; Redeem me and be merciful to me. 12 My foot stands in an even place; In the congregations I will bless the Lord.

2 Kings 17:13 Yet the Lord testified against Israel and against Judah, by all of His prophets, every seer, saying, “Turn from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets.”

Eze 38:17 Thus says the Lord God: “Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them?

Jeremiah 23:11 “For both prophet and priest are profane; Yes, in My house I have found their wickedness,” says the Lord.

The prophets of Israel who dwelled in God’s house sinned giving prophecy of their own hearts speaking lies. These messengers left God’s habitation.

11:12 “Therefore their way shall be to them Like slippery ways; In the darkness they shall be driven on And fall in them; For I will bring disaster on them, The year of their punishment,” says the Lord.…………… 20 The anger of the Lord will not turn back Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly ….….. ……39 therefore behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you and forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and will cast you out of My presence. 40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.'

Jude 1:6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

July 16, 2009 at 10:38 pm#137826

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 17 2009,05:08)

Jude 1:6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

KJV says “angels” not “messengers.”

Gen 6 says sons of Elohiym.

Job says sons of Elohiym.

Psalm says “what is man that thou art mindful of him, or the son of man that thou visitest him, thou has made him a little lower than Elohiym”

My question for you though is if these are sons of God because they are obedient believers, why are they victims to their lusts? Doesn't sound like obedient sons of God to me.

Also, how did these “wicked men who were sons of God” put off or abandon their oikeeteerion? MAN does not even HAVE oikeeteerion until he puts OF immortality and puts on oikeeteerion.

And it is the same thing that the angels referenced by Jude, abandoned.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

In the phrase “Left their own habitation” – “left” is from the Greek word “apoleipw” which means to leave, to leave behind, to desert or forsake; and “habitation” is from the Greek word “oikeeteerion” Meaning: a dwelling place, habitation of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit.

When angels put off their oikeerteerion, they took on humanity, mortality, begat a race of giants among men.

When men put off this mortality, they PUT ON oikeeteerion, and live forever.

July 17, 2009 at 12:55 am#137836

Participant

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

Notice that Adam and Eve were NOT told that some part of them would receive a reward or punishment after death. They were simply told that dust they are dust they shall return.

Genesis 6:6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Notice God says nothing about giving man a conscious punishment after death with apart of him separating from his body. God destroyed man , ALL of him.

Our Creator is the designer of awesome sophisticated systems. The human body is a very special and intelligent design. The spirit in man represents his mind and his character, and it exists and is sustained through the life of a functioning body.

Ge 47:30 but let me lie with my fathers; you shall carry me out of Egypt and bury me in their burial place.” And he said, “I will do as you have said.”

2 Kings 22:20 Surely, therefore, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace; and your eyes shall not see all the calamity which I will bring on this place.” ' “

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” 12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

Death is referred to as sleep, it is NOT referred to as a place where the soul or spirit is separated from the body. Death is a place without conscious awareness.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward,

Psalm 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor any who go down into silence.

Psalm 6:4 Return, O Lord, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake! 5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

Isaiah 38:18 For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

Dead people don’t have a part of them in some punishing habitation where they can receive visitors such as Jesus, and receive God’s word.

Psalms 30:9 “What profit is there in my blood, When I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your truth?

Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

YLT Daniel 12:2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during.

Judgment does not come until the resurrection. A conscious part of you does not go to some habitation where you receive one judgment while waiting to be reunited with your body to receive another.

Mt 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
No one has a conscious part of them that goes on when the body dies to a new habitation of reward or punishment.

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day…….34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Sarah….Hebrews11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

July 17, 2009 at 1:26 am#137837

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ July 17 2009,10:38)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 17 2009,05:08)

Jude 1:6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,

KJV says “angels” not “messengers.”

Gen 6 says sons of Elohiym.

Job says sons of Elohiym.

Psalm says “what is man that thou art mindful of him, or the son of man that thou visitest him, thou has made him a little lower than Elohiym”

My question for you though is if these are sons of God because they are obedient believers, why are they victims to their lusts? Doesn't sound like obedient sons of God to me.

Also, how did these “wicked men who were sons of God” put off or abandon their oikeeteerion? MAN does not even HAVE oikeeteerion until he puts OF immortality and puts on oikeeteerion.

And it is the same thing that the angels referenced by Jude, abandoned.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

When angels put off their oikeerteerion, they took on humanity, mortality, begat a race of giants among men.

When men put off this mortality, they PUT ON oikeeteerion, and live forever.

I could make the same argument, you think sinning angels are going to be referred to as Sons of God? Were the angels righteous before they decided to lust after the woman?

These were righteous men who became sinful through lusting after the beautiful daughters.

The prophets forsook the house of God when they prophesied lies in His name in His house.

The giants were said to exist BEFORE and AFTER the procreation. Anyway the giants are still referred to as men not halfbreeds.

Angels, with immortality, sinning and becoming mortals?

I have a major problem with the idea of that. I believe that God holds the same standards for all His created creatures. We know that sin equals death and immortality is a reward of faith and upon that faith and receiving of immortality perfection is created. If Angels have immortality then they must have obtained perfection sometime in past history before our creation was made. Once you're perfected by God in God, there's no going back, Thank goodness! That's my understanding anyway. When the last enemy is destroyed and Jesus hands over the rulership to his Father, and He dwells with us in our presence in a new heaven and new earth, the angels will be there with us too. I believe that God must have perfected them before our Creation, who knows maybe He did so on earth when the dinosaurs roamed, but now their job has been to aid God in bringing forth His will and plan on earth.

I just can't possibly imagine someone throwing immortality away when they've already lived in it. We wait in hope and great expectation for that glory, it's rather just a slap in the face to God to say that others had it but it wasn't good enough for them, they'd rather have sex with humans.

July 17, 2009 at 1:38 am#137841

Participant

Hi Jodi,
That is a fine philosphy.
So faith alone leads to immortality?

That is going to be a popular idea – will it be in the book?.

July 17, 2009 at 2:06 am#137850

Participant

1 Timothy 6:6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

July 17, 2009 at 1:32 pm#137885