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Quote (seek and you will find @ April 05 2008,00:41) Sorry I did nit say anything, my eyes are closing on me I am so tired, but can't sleep. Please don't get old. Ha,Ha……Love you Guys Irene
Getting old is better than the alternative
.Quote (kejonn @ April 05 2008,21:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2008,23:23) Hi not3,
Yes that is a very popular path.
Attempting to unite all religions under one banner is what the god of this world wants us to do.
Then the God of the bible should do more than just have an ancient book about Him. One that portrays Him in a nasty way at that.
Preumably science and logic are the creations of god, along with all the galaxies and solar systems that follow the laws of physics in an entirely predictable way. So why does the supreme logician not give, in his autobiography, reasons consistent with the well-described and well-ordered universe that he created? Why can the bible be demonstrated to be factually incorrect and the authorship anonymous for so much of it (especially Genesis)? The universe is neatly laid out and humans are treated brutally. Does this god have something further down the autism spectrum than Asperger's?Stuart
Hi Stu,
Not necessarily.
James 3:15
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.The incredible depths of the vanity of the human mind is easily manipulated.
Why should God make everything very plain for you?
He demands that we seek.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2008,11:00) Hi Stu,
Not necessarily.
James 3:15
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.The incredible depths of the vanity of the human mind is easily manipulated.
Why should God make everything very plain for you?
He demands that we seek.
The cryptic crossword god has set you has no black squares, not even a grid, and no clues. The paper it is written on is not even there. The setter and his work would seem to be completely invisible. You seek this by following the inventions of those who lived before you. You refuse to tell us how you can confirm you are on the right path. far from needing it made plain, we need to see some glimmer that any of it should be taken seriously. There is no such glimmer.Again you judge humans in a miserable light. Do you not understand the nature of vanity?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Not so. Study reveals an amazing network of unity throughout scripture-a giant jigsaw which fits together as one as you ensure each piece is properly placed. Forcing pieces into wrong places causes confusion.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2008,11:20) Hi Stu,
Not so. Study reveals an amazing network of unity throughout scripture-a giant jigsaw which fits together as one as you ensure each piece is properly placed. Forcing pieces into wrong places causes confusion.
You can't tell me that Isaiah names the prophecised messiah as Jesus. The claim of a world-wide flood may be internally consistent, but is factually absurd. We can see languages evolving all around us and we have a record of such for many centuries, including the use of diversified symbolic language in times before the alleged time of babel.The only way this jigsaw fits together and fits with reality is if you do monumental forcing. That is what you and David do most here. Your anvil must be well worn.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2008,11:29) Hi Stu,
We are all well aware that for you it is still all confusion.
I think I am pretty clear. Did Isaiah call the messiah Jesus, or the equivalent in any other language contemporary with himself or Jesus?We there a world-wide flood? There is no evidence whatsoever.
The myth of the tower of babel does not reflect the process of the evolution of language that has evidently happened before and after that time.
No confusion here.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2008,11:39) Hi Stu,
All will become plain later.
Did you want all the boxes ticked first?
Yes. I want you to justify your claim that it all fits together like a jigsaw. If you can claim that then you should have answers to my questions. I have not chosen obscure parts of the bible to ask about.Stuart
Hi KJ,
It is not a simple thing to explain how a million pieces fit together to someone who cannot see.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2008,11:45) Hi KJ,
It is not a simple thing to explain how a million pieces fit together to someone who cannot see.
you have never said exactly what it is that you can see that I cannot, so I will discount your patronising nonsense on that front.I am not asking for you to fit a 'million pieces together' for me. I would be content for the time being with three things of which I asked.
Isaiah naming the messiah.
The flood.
Babel.
How do these fit together with reality and other scripture?
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2008,11:51) Hi Stu,
So if what is revealed in the OT is not to your expections is that relevant?
You said it fits together like a jigsaw. What kind of jigsaws are you used to fitting together?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 05 2008,18:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2008,11:51) Hi Stu,
So if what is revealed in the OT is not to your expections is that relevant?
You said it fits together like a jigsaw. What kind of jigsaws are you used to fitting together?Stuart
The kind you find in your grandmother's attic. You know, the one with several pieces missing so that there is no chance to ever complete it?Hi Stu,
Quote You cannot know for absolute certain that your experience of god is really what it seems. That is exactly why faith is required, otherwise you wouldn't call it faith. So where is the justice in a god that makes himself mysteriously incomprehensible then asks for obedience, with all the guess work that you need to achieve that. If there are 33,999 different versions of christianity and they all claim to be following the only path, isn't that enough to make anyone paranoid?
Here's the thing, I no longer need to “know for absolute certain” that God exists and that what I know of him is true and real. I know that some things in the physical world can be known for certain, but when you are dealing with ideas outside of our physical universe, you must employ different reasoning. One world is not like the other, I'm sure. If it were, we would have been able to pin-point the heavens by now and know something about them. As it is, our universe is ever expanding with un-charted territory. I suspect it will always be this way. Why? Because God cannot fully be known, nor can his plan, nor can his universe.Faith is believing in something you don't have yet. If you want God, you have faith. We only have a very minute part of him, but if we have faith we please him, and our reward is more of him! The flawed ink-written book is not the only way God speaks to his creation.
Quote If there are 33,999 different versions of christianity and they all claim to be following the only path, isn't that enough to make anyone paranoid?
I used to think so. But now I understand that there are many ways God can and does speak to his creation. With humanity being what it is, there is no way that one particular story has withstood the test of tampering. Therefore I have come to realize that there is truth in many different “versions” of Christianity and religions. This has set the paranoia to flight. There has since rested a peace that passes my understanding.Quote (kejonn @ April 05 2008,21:54) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 04 2008,23:13) Quote (kejonn @ April 04 2008,22:41) Quote
I don't know, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I also think that the Bible and it's many stories have endured for a reason. Look at the Dead Sea Scrolls – there is proof that at least some of the Bible is ancient. I'm sure the majority of it is flawed, don't get me wrong, shoot, even I found out the Trinity wasn't true by using an NIV – ha!Hinduism is older than all other religions. The Vedas — a Hindu religious text — dates anywhere from 1500 BCE to 6000 BCE in its origins. So if it is invalid, why was it allowed to remain?
Do you see that this reasoning is not quite right?
Let me clarify, I do not believe there is only ONE truth out there. I just don't. There just can't be. As you and I have studied, there are many who were born Muslim who serve, who they believe to be, the Almighty. We serve who we believe is the Almighty. A tribe in the mountains of some foreign land also serves the Almighty but they may call him something different; they may worship differently. Paul tells us there is ONE GOD, and it's my personal belief that most religions are worshiping this same God under different traditions and cultures.I said the bible stories have endured for a reason. I didn't say they have endured because they are the only truth. See, this is where I make orthodox Christians nuts – I have come to believe that God speaks to his creation many different ways and through many different “stories”. Including that of The Vedas you mentioned.
Many Atheists see all who believe in God as delusional. I can see that for the very reason you give. The fact that there are so many religions and that people within the same religion are so splintered gives them mucho ammunition. People relying on prayer rather than seeking medical attention gives them ammo. JWs refusing blood transfusions gives them ammo. People saying it was OK for God to kill over 2 million people in the OT because He has that right gives them plenty of ammo. I could go on and on.Muslims make many claims about their faith but Christians don't believe them. Christians make many claims about their faith but Jews don't believe them. Mormons make many claims about their faith but JWs don't believe them. Hindus make many claims about their faith, but Taoists don't believe them. Now switch all of these up in multiple combinations and you have a humanity that is divided.
Sadly, religion is yet another way humanity is divided. And many religions have racism in their scriptures, so there is a basis for people to justify racism. There is also sexism in many religious works, so it has taken 1000s of years for women to be treated semi-equally. In many parts of the world they still are not.
I love God, but until we know who He is definitively, we are going to remain divided.
It sounds like we are saying the same thing on many points here, Kevin. I agree with you that there is not ONE truth out there. I believe God is reaching his creation through many different truths out there. I know that, as Nick has pointed out through scripture, that this cannot be true according to fundy Christianity. But who said that every Christian is a fundy? I have said this before and I'll say it again, I don't believe God wants to be defined. I believe that is why the bible has been tampered with and that is why man has inserted his own ideas (like Jesus is the only way). I sound like a hypocrite with that last sentense (and most here will agree), but I do not believe it is true.
Mandy! If you believe that Christ is not the only way to salvation, why did Christ die for us? Why did so many first Christians were first slaughtered by the Jewish people like Jesus. And later the Catholic Church.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.Ephesians 2:4 But God who is rich, in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
verse 5 even when we were death in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved).
verse 6 and raised us up together, made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
verse 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace, in kindness, towards us, in CHRIST JESUS.
verse 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
verse 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
verse 10 FORE WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, WHICH GOD PREPARED BEFOREHAND THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.I really like all of Romans to prove my point.
Peace and Love Irene
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