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Quote Quote (david @ June 17 2006,06:13)
Quote
I have a question for you nick. If this military man goes to war and kills a fellow believer on the other side, the other country, does that demonstrate “love among yourselves,” as spoken of by Jesus? Judge for yourself.JOHN 13:34-35
“I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””Nick, if you do not know what “love” is, how can you possibly show it to others?
Hi david,
You want to talk about matters of the world.
But this is a biblical forum and we study the Word and seek the Will of God in the knowledge that He is in charge of all matters pertaining to us. So we do not need to build sandcastles of anxiety about what theoretical situations our imaginations may fantasise about.
Phil 4.6
“Be anxious for nothing but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be known to God”Nick, we are commanded to love, to love our neighbor, and to have love among your brothers (“love among yourselves”). If you don't know what “love” even is, how will you possibly carry this out?
You ask if I would judge a military man who is on this site. I responded by asking you if it is loving to kill a fellow believer, a brother in the lord, because of the fact that he is in another country and your government demands it.
If you can't figure out if this is love, you have some ways to go. Where are your loyalties Nick? God or government? When the two conflict, who do you follow?Nick, I judge no one. I presented an example of something that happens all the time. I put truth to your question, the ugly truth. And you close your eyes, saying it's fantasy. The truth is so obvious, yet you cannot say anything either way about it. It's not a “theoretical situation” at all. It happens in war all the time. Catholic kills Catholic, protestant kills protestant, muslim kills muslim. Is that love?
If you had a brother in another country Nick, a spiritual brother, or even a fleshly brother whom you loved, do you have to think twice as to whether it would be loving to kill him? Would such an action show 'love among the two of you'?
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””Quote Hi david,
You really do not understand do you?Nick, your inability to answer this question would seem to indicate that you do not understand love.
Quote If you had a brother in another country Nick, a spiritual brother, or even a fleshly brother whom you loved, do you have to think twice as to whether it would be loving to kill him? Would such an action show 'love among the two of you'? Nick, you know the apostasy was fortold.
You know the earliest Christians took the stand of not going to war or becoming soldiers.
You know that this stand changed, as did many other things a couple hundred years after Christ.Yet, you can't put it all together. It's quite simple. Jesus followers would love one another. (John 13:35) In fact, it would be a distinguishing mark.
True Christians are different than the world Nick. They stand apart and separate from it.Quote Hi david,
You really do not understand do you?
No, apparently, Nick, I really don't understand you, and how you reconsile what you refuse to say (I won't kill t8, my brother) with what you do say (We are united in spirit)
I don't understand at all.I have another question David
We are told that for a soldier to be saved he must do violence to no man. SO,
How can a true follower of Christ go to war?The power of reason would then surmise that any person who supports the use of violence against any man turns their back on salvation.
Quote (TJStarfire @ Nov. 03 2006,21:04) I have another question David
We are told that for a soldier to be saved he must do violence to no man. SO,
How can a true follower of Christ go to war?
Hi TJS,
Lk 3
” 2Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.3And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
12Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. “
So this was John preaching a baptism of repentance and clarifying good behaviors for those still under the Law. It would not save them as good works, except done to the brothers of Christ, save no man, and all must hear and obey the gospel of Christ unto rebirth from above which John alluded to in the same chapter.
” 16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.”
Wheat or chaff
Our choice.Quote I have another question David
We are told that for a soldier to be saved he must do violence to no man. SO,
How can a true follower of Christ go to war?Quote The power of reason would then surmise that any person who supports the use of violence against any man turns their back on salvation. Hi TJS,
I think you are mistaking me with Nick. Perhaps you haven't read any of my posts. Please read that last ten pages or so.david
Quote What religion practices that they have love among themselves. Jesus said this would be an identifying principle for his true followers. But most religions fight wars and don't practice unselfish love. Which faith teaches and practices this qaulitey that seperates followers from hypocrites This is the original question in this thread.
It's very true that love among themselves would be an “identifying principle” of Jesus true followers. (Mat 13:35)
It's so sad when people of one religion go to war and slaughter their “brother” in another country.As for practicing “'unselfish love” as mentioned, I think if there was any group of Jesus followers where all the members actively spend their free time telling others about the wonderfully good news of Jesus and his kingdom, that would seem to indicate this sort of love, wouldn't it?
(Mat 28:19,20; mat 24:14)There may be another thread that discusses this, if there is please direct me to it.
I don't understand why God said “thou shall not murder”, it is all about love, and then in almost every book of the old testament
was commanding someone to murder someone wlse.If someone picked up stick on the sabbath,stone them to death.
If your own child appeared rebellious, stone him to death.
If someone else happens to live on some land that God wanted for you to have, kill every man , woman and child among them.Can someone explain this dichotomy?
Tim
Timothy,
I believe the problem arises from equating killing with murder. What is murder for an individual, is the God ordained justice system for society. However God has given us the example of mercy which shouldn't be forgotten.Wm
Under the Law, a wrongdoer deserving capital punishment usually was pelted to death with stones. (Le 20:2) This was to ‘clear out what was bad from their midst.’ All Israel would hear of the punishment, and fear of such wrongdoing would be instilled in their hearts. (De 13:5, 10, 11; 22:22-24) In stoning an evildoer, they showed that they were zealous for true worship, anxious to see that no reproach came upon God’s name, and desirous of maintaining a clean congregation.
Before a wrongdoer could be stoned, at least two witnesses had to give harmonious testimony against him, and thereafter they cast the first stones. (Le 24:14; De 17:6, 7) The prospect of being the executioner made a person think searchingly in giving evidence and doubtless was a deterrent to false testimony, which, if discovered, would cost the lying witness his own life.—De 19:18-20.–Insight, vol 2, page 1037
Quote If someone else happens to live on some land that God wanted for you to have, kill every man , woman and child among them. We must remember that these people were viewed as “detestable” by Jehovah because of their degrading practices and customs. (Le 18:26-30)
Outstanding was their practice of idolatry. God said: “The graven images of their gods you should burn in the fire. You must not desire the silver and the gold upon them, nor indeed take it for yourself, for fear you may be ensnared by it; for it is a thing detestable [thoh·‛avath′] to Jehovah your God. And you must not bring a detestable thing [thoh·‛e·vah′] into your house and actually become a thing devoted to destruction like it. You should thoroughly loathe it and absolutely detest it [wetha·‛ev′ tetha·‛aven′nu], because it is something devoted to destruction.” (De 7:25, 26)
Other practices of the Canaanites to be detested by Israel were: spiritism with its seances, casting of spells, fortune-telling (De 18:9-12), offering children up in fire to their gods (De 12:31; Jer 32:35; 2Ki 16:3), incest, sodomy, and bestiality. (Le 18:6, 22-30; 20:13) Doubtless the morally repugnant practice of sodomy was the reason for the severity of the rule declaring the wearing of apparel of the opposite sex to be “detestable.” (De 22:5) The Canaanites also practiced “sacred” prostitution by male and female temple prostitutes, but Jehovah prohibited the bringing of “the hire of a harlot or the price of a dog” into his house, “because they are something detestable.”—De 23:17, 18; 1Ki 14:24.
The judge of all the earth decided that they were not fit to live. Who are we to question him?
Quote Sodom……..The judge of all the earth decided that they were not fit to live. brrrrrr
ugh yuck. I would very much agree
Hugs
PhoenixDavid,
Thank you for taking the time to give me a more thorough answer to my question.
Up until the last line, your answer was very helpful. I have become frustrated with
never getting an answer to a question that I have about God commanding what seem to be immoral
actions. I always get the, ” He is God, who are we to question Him?” answer. But are we not
told to rightly divide the word of God. If we read something in scripture that seems to be
totally unjust to even our carnal eyes, do we not have the right to seek where the justice lies?When God sent the Hebrews into Cannan, he told them to kill everyone. 90 year old grandmothers,
three month old babies, sickly old men and pregnant mothers to be. It didn't matter who they were, kill them all.
Now I am sure that to those being killed it would be hard to discern between whether they were
being killed or murdered. Only the cruelest demon leader on this planet would ever command such an evil
thing from his troops in a war. And yet we say that God was just in doing so.Hold on a minute———
O.K. I wanted to wait a minute to see if I got struck with lightning or something.
Don't get me wrong. I am only trying to see why there is such a huge gulf between
the God of the New Ttestament, Jesus, and the God of the old testament.Perhaps I will never get my question answered until I can talk to Jesus face to face.
Tim
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 17 2007,21:02) Timothy,
I believe the problem arises from equating killing with murder. What is murder for an individual, is the God ordained justice system for society. However God has given us the example of mercy which shouldn't be forgotten.Wm
Hi Seekingthruth,Thank you for responding to my question. Most people seem to fear that they are putting themselves in harms way to even respond to questions that seem to question God.
So they stay far away.In my mind, any time that someone kills someone else that has done nothing to provoke such an action from society, it is murder. Too many people, even in this day and age, have murdered someone because they thought that God told them to.
If it was the God ordained justice system for society, why would not God do the killing himself. We know that He could. He did it himself with Sodom, Gomorrah and the entire earth in the flood.
Why would he expect people to violate one of his more important commandments and become the murderers.Jesus never asked anyone to kill for any reason. He even chastised Peter for pulling a sword and cutting off someones' ear. Jesus was very clear that no matter how dispicable a person, we should forgive them. Where was the forgiveness
shown from God in the old testament? His mercy was only for the Hebrews and no one else, and the Hebrews were just as guilty of sin as everyone else.I know that these kind of questions seem to approach blasphemy, but they are not intended to be. And God knows that in my heart there is no such intent. But if I can't answer these kind of questions myself, how will I be able to answer them for a struggling new Christian?
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 18 2007,07:16)
Hi Seekingthruth,Thank you for responding to my question. Most people seem to fear that they are putting themselves in harms way to even respond to questions that seem to question God.
So they stay far away.Truth is truth whether you like it or not.
Quote In my mind, any time that someone kills someone else that has done nothing to provoke such an action from society, it is murder. Too many people, even in this day and age, have murdered someone because they thought that God told them to.
I believe more evil is done in the name of religion then anything else. To me murder is when someone judges another's soul of no value and then takes God's place to the extent they choose to shorten it. If love is placing value on another's soul then hate is having no value for another soul. I believe that is why Jesus said if you hate your brother your guilty of murder. If as a society we follow God's guidelines then killing is not from hate but from necessity (I know of no place in scripture where it says we should incarcerate a person for the rest of their life).
Quote If it was the God ordained justice system for society, why would not God do the killing himself. We know that He could. He did it himself with Sodom, Gomorrah and the entire earth in the flood.
Why would he expect people to violate one of his more important commandments and become the murderers.Jesus never asked anyone to kill for any reason. He even chastised Peter for pulling a sword and cutting off someones' ear. Jesus was very clear that no matter how despicable a person, we should forgive them. Where was the forgiveness
shown from God in the old testament? His mercy was only for the Hebrews and no one else, and the Hebrews were just as guilty of sin as everyone else.God has the right to determine our number of days it is not murder for Him.
Quote I know that these kind of questions seem to approach blasphemy, but they are not intended to be. And God knows that in my heart there is no such intent. But if I can't answer these kind of questions myself, how will I be able to answer them for a struggling new Christian?
Tim
We don't have all the answers and we shouldn't be afraid to admit when we're wrong. Honesty still works best.
Wm
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 18 2007,16:54) David,
Thank you for taking the time to give me a more thorough answer to my question.
Up until the last line, your answer was very helpful. I have become frustrated with
never getting an answer to a question that I have about God commanding what seem to be immoral
actions. I always get the, ” He is God, who are we to question Him?” answer. But are we not
told to rightly divide the word of God. If we read something in scripture that seems to be
totally unjust to even our carnal eyes, do we not have the right to seek where the justice lies?When God sent the Hebrews into Cannan, he told them to kill everyone. 90 year old grandmothers,
three month old babies, sickly old men and pregnant mothers to be. It didn't matter who they were, kill them all.
Now I am sure that to those being killed it would be hard to discern between whether they were
being killed or murdered. Only the cruelest demon leader on this planet would ever command such an evil
thing from his troops in a war. And yet we say that God was just in doing so.Hold on a minute———
Hi Tim4,Adding to what's already been said before by David and ST, I am thinking that perhaps when God commands that a transgressor be put to death by Israel, that localizes the problem and is neatly removed for the sake of all, thus preventing GREATER judgment from God which tends to result in widespread catastrophic devastation, e.g. flood/Tsunami.
Also, as far as Israel killing others in warfare, remember Rahab from among the people of Jericho, the Gibeonites, and Ruth, Kings Darius and Cyrus etc… these chose to align themselves with God and his people and so were grafted in and saved. It seems to me that God provides such an opportunity and saves such as come to him…
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