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If we do not love our brothers are we not more guilty of murder then a soldier who shoots someone in war?
1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer,There is a religon which does practice love, the true religon as referred to in James, helping those who are defensless and keeping your self untainted by the world.
I believe we must answer individually, on every occurance, whether you were lead by God to aid in the defense of the defensless or were there worldly interests (anger, hatred, greed, vengence, etc.) behind your motives.
Exodus 22:2
“If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;Psalm 82:3
Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.Isaiah 1:17
learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.How is it I would not be guilty of bloodshed defending my property (which is just a possession), but guilty of murder if I were to kill someone defending others?
I believe this “true religon” is not found in any denomination, but in some, within many denominations as well as some who avoid denominations all together. I also believe that some day, soon, we will be called out of these man made groups into a single body guided by the Spirit and headed by Christ our Lord. I believe this will be the time that Jesus's prayer written in John will be answered “May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”
This will be the true witness, that except for those who choose to be blind, everyone will see.
I seek to be part of this unity and pray that all of us here will draw close to God, as that will bring us all together, may that be in all our prayers.
Quote How is it I would not be guilty of bloodshed defending my property (which is just a possession), but guilty of murder if I were to kill someone defending others? Maybe you should go find that thief that you think is going to break into your house and kill him now. Would that be ok?
And if it wouldn't be ok, then why? Your answer this is my answer to you.You should also consider verse 3, the next verse. The Law permitted self-defense but restricted an individual’s right to fight for his property. Bloodguilt came upon a person who, though catching a thief in the act of breaking into his home, killed the lawbreaker in the daytime. This was evidently because thievery did not carry the death penalty, and the thief could be identified and brought to justice. At night, however, it would be difficult to see what one was doing and to ascertain the intentions of an intruder. Therefore, the person killing an intruder in the dark was considered guiltless.—Ex 22:2, 3.
At NIGHT it would be very hard to determine the intentions of the intruder. To protect himself from possible harm, the homeowner had the right to inflict hard blows. And if these blows proved fatal, he was considered to be free from bloodguilt.
The Mosaic law considered as bloodguilty the person taking the life of a thief in the daytime. (Ex. 22:3) Why? Evidently because, in the daytime, the thief could be identified to the Law.
Sooo,
Since the Mosaic law sets forth God’s view, we can appreciate that a Christian could not claim self-defense if, in reality, only property defense against an identifiable criminal was involved.
On the other hand, the armed person may definitely want to kill. What then?
When flight is possible, that is to be preferred. The Bible relates a number of instances involving Jesus’ doing just that. There was the time when certain Jews ‘picked up stones to hurl at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.’ (John 8:59) Regarding another occasion, we read: “They tried again to seize him; but he got out of their reach.”—John 10:39.
If flight is impossible, the individual may be able to reason with the assailant. But, at other times, trying to reason with a person determined to inflict injury may lead to loss of valuable time. The situation may be such that the only thing a person can do is to use whatever is at hand to protect himself or others. As a result, the attacker may receive a fatal blow. From the Scriptural standpoint, the one acting in self-defense would not thereby incur bloodguilt.
So, anyway, in answer to your question:
Quote How is it I would not be guilty of bloodshed defending my property (which is just a possession), but guilty of murder if I were to kill someone [while] defending others?
Defending yourself in the dark when you can't later identify the intruder or know his intent, it would be an unintentional violation of the law if you struck him “so that he dies.”
If you did so during the day, you would BE BLOODGUILTY.Quote How is it I would not be guilty of bloodshed defending my property (which is just a possession), but guilty of murder if I were to kill someone [while] defending others?
You would be guilty of bloodshed defending your property if you killed him during the day.So, this thread is supposed to be about “love among all.” So I should connect the dots so as to not be told again that this is the theme of this thread:
Looking at the law, including verse 3, we see that Jehovah shows love towards all. Truly, Jehovah’s law was in perfect balance, exacting just retribution from the wicked but extending mercy to those falling into sin or an unintentional violation of the law.david.
To david,
Quote (david @ April 30 2006,02:17) Vengeance is MINE. I shall repay, says Jehovah.
But how does Jehovah pay?He often uses human agencies both good and wicked.
Daniel 5:27-28
27 Tekel: You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.
28 Peres: Your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”We can also see the victories in war that God gave Israel, no point in quoting a scripture as we all know the stories.
I agree that as the Church we should never take up arms and physically fight for our Kingdom. But God does use nations to fight wars and to destroy wickedness if we look at history at least. He has used both righteous and wicked nations for this purpose.
In the case of Hitlers reign, he eventually lost and the Jews gained Israel as their homeland which was surely God's will. It could be argued that God used Britain and other countries to destroy the wickedness of the Nazis.
I am sure that many Christians were praying for God to remove Hitler or to subdue him. Perhaps WWII's outcome was an answer to those prayers. After all, no one expects God to come down himself and do it. Surely God uses what is available to him.
Hi david,
I grew up catholic and still mix with them a lot. I remember their sincere caring and their dogged self perfectionism. I missed their fellowship a lot when I was called out. But I could not abide their constant references to death and their repetitive prayers and rituals. It taught me much about the bible but their greater belief in their leadership and traditions drove me away.Quote Our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. If we fight with the weapons of this world, then we are truly deluded. And
Quote I agree that as the Church we should never take up arms and physically fight for our Kingdom. So T8, are you saying that as Christians, we should never take up arms in warefare for our country or government? Is that what you are saying? I just want to be clear. Because if that's what you're saying, how refreshing.
What the nations do, or don't do, what does that have to do with Christians, who are to be known for their love for one another?
Because if that's what you're saying and believe, then I agree with you. I find it's hard to have “love among all” when you're still unsure if one of your brothers in another country may or may not kill you in war.
david
MATTHEW 5:43-48
““YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.”Are not Christians to be different than “the people of the nations.”
When it comes to ware, are not the people of the nations doing the same thing?
Christians would be different. They would have love among themselves.2 PETER 2:1-3
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these THE WAY OF THE TRUTH WILL BE SPOKEN OF ABUSIVELY.”
“Perhaps nothing has done more to discredit Christianity than its practice of taking a stand virtually indistinguishable from that of non-Christians on the practice of war,” notes The Christian Century article. “That Christians on the one hand espouse the faith of the gentle Savior while on the other they warmly support religious or nationalistic wars has gone far toward damaging the faith.”Quote Quote
Our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. If we fight with the weapons of this world, then we are truly deluded.And
Quote
I agree that as the Church we should never take up arms and physically fight for our Kingdom.t8, could I get some clarity on this?
Quote (david @ June 04 2006,22:56) Quote Our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. If we fight with the weapons of this world, then we are truly deluded. And
Quote I agree that as the Church we should never take up arms and physically fight for our Kingdom. So T8, are you saying that as Christians, we should never take up arms in warefare for our country or government? Is that what you are saying? I just want to be clear. Because if that's what you're saying, how refreshing.
What the nations do, or don't do, what does that have to do with Christians, who are to be known for their love for one another?
Because if that's what you're saying and believe, then I agree with you. I find it's hard to have “love among all” when you're still unsure if one of your brothers in another country may or may not kill you in war.
david
Hi,
redirecting the thread
Eph 412
“for the equipping of the saints for the work of service
to the building up of the body of Christ;
until we all attain to the unity of faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
to a mature man,
to the measure of the nature of Christ.
As a result we are no longer to be children,
tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine;
by the trickery of men,
by craftinessin deceitful scheming ,
but speaking the truth in LOVE,
we are to grow up in all aspects into him who is the head, even Christ,
rom whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what each joint supplies,
according to the proper working of each individual part,
causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in LOVE”So once we are joined to Christ our own needs are to be subjected to the order imposed by Christ, the head of the body. We are to attain unity in faith by abiding in the word. Truth is to be shared such that we all have the same life giving blood supply in him. We should not be wasting time arguing about side issues or theories as that is childish and we must grow up unto the one we serve. We do not serve our natural minds and their speculations but truth itself who is Christ. Love with order is the way. Branches that refuse to serve the Head risk being pruned away.
Quote (david @ June 05 2006,17:56) So T8, are you saying that as Christians, we should never take up arms in warefare for our country or government? Is that what you are saying? I just want to be clear. Because if that's what you're saying, how refreshing. What the nations do, or don't do, what does that have to do with Christians, who are to be known for their love for one another?
Because if that's what you're saying and believe, then I agree with you. I find it's hard to have “love among all” when you're still unsure if one of your brothers in another country may or may not kill you in war.
Hi david,I am saying the following:
- The Kingdom is not of this world, so we do not fight for this kingdom physically
- That God has used both good and wicked nations in war for his purpose
If all war was truly evil, then God stuffed up with Israel.
I think the truth lies within the 2 points I have mentioned.
I wonder if the following scriptures gives us a hint?
Luke 23:46-47
46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
47 The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.”Matthew 8:5-10
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering.”
7 Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”
8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.I am not sure if there is a cut and dry solution or answer here. It may depend on things like 'what war', 'what God wants me to do'.
I do not have a definitive answer.Quote If all war was truly evil, then God stuffed up with Israel.
Obviously, the judge of all the earth can decide if someone is unfit for life.
But are you, T8? That is the question. Are you? Is Nick? Is anyone who calls themself a Christian?Those scriptures you mentioned would be relative if we knew that the centurion remained so, after learning the truth.
We do know that:
“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)“No soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”
So, we're not told what this centurion did. You don't know he remained in military service. I believe history suggests otherwise.Christianity Today quotes church historian Roland Bainton:
“From the end of the New Testament period to the decade 170-180 there is no evidence whatever of Christians in the army.”You see, the early Christians had love among themselves. They would not go to war and kill a brother in another land. To do so would be unthinkable.
Quote 1. The Kingdom is not of this world, so we do not fight for this kingdom physically
2. That God has used both good and wicked nations in war for his purposeOf course we do not fight for God's kingdom physically. But it is God's kingdom we owe our allegience to, and support. Does a Christian get involved in the wars of earthly kingdoms? They are to be “no part of the world,” said Jesus. How could they be involved?
Could you explain number 2? What are you referring to? Of course he used Israel to remove the wicked ones from the land of Canaan, a people God decided were deserving of destruction. These wars often involved miraculous methods and outcomes, proving God's backing. These are lacking in all wars today.JOHN 13:34-35
“I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””True Christians have “love among” themselves. This means they don't kill each other despite what human governments tell them to do.
david.
I have a question for you nick. If this military man goes to war and kills a fellow believer on the other side, the other country, does that demonstrate “love among yourselves,” as spoken of by Jesus? Judge for yourself.
JOHN 13:34-35
“I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””Quote (david @ June 16 2006,02:21) Obviously, the judge of all the earth can decide if someone is unfit for life.
But are you, T8? That is the question. Are you? Is Nick? Is anyone who calls themself a Christian?
david I do not have an opinion regarding this subject, but I am being objective at the moment.My question regarding Israel was asked because it appeared to me that your judgment regarding war meant that God himself as well as the Jews have sinned in the way you describe.
But we both know that God cannot sin, so obviously I will look for another explanation.
When God sent Israel into war with his enemies, did the Jews commit murder? Was each Jew able to decide if someone is unfit for life. Did David have the authority to decide if Goliath was unfit for life?
I actually do not see all death as bad.
Death is passing onto our inheritence whether it be a good or bad thing. God sometimes committed genocide with certain groups of people because they were evil. Was God or his agents (those who obeyed God) committing murder or were they destroying an unfruitful vine to save more souls from growing on that unfruitful branch?
After all it says that the rightoeus will inherit the earth. If God trims or snaps of the wicked branches, then surely he is giving more chance for the good branches to grow. Or should the Jews not have obeyed God and let the evil branches grow which may have even choked the good ones?
Quote Hi david,
If you do not judge why would you invite me
to do
what
you do
not do?I would say the same to you. In fact, I have.
Quote I have a question for you nick. If this military man goes to war and kills a fellow believer on the other side, the other country, does that demonstrate “love among yourselves,” as spoken of by Jesus? Judge for yourself. JOHN 13:34-35
“I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””Nick, if you do not know what “love” is, how can you possibly show it to others?
Quote My question regarding Israel was asked because it appeared to me that your judgment regarding war meant that God himself as well as the Jews have sinned in the way you describe. Not at all T8. Who can check Jehovah's hand? Or question Him? And if he directly tells his people to do something (which he obviously did) who am I or you to question that? We are no one.
Quote When God sent Israel into war with his enemies, did the Jews commit murder?
If Abraham's hand would not have been stopped, would he have commited murder? Murder is wrong because God says it's wrong. When testing Abraham, was it wrong? Even if Abraham didn't understand it at the moment or know the outcome, WE know that the judge of all the earth was behind it.Quote Death is passing onto our inheritence whether it be a good or bad thing. God sometimes committed genocide with certain groups of people because they were evil.
Ahh, there it is. Do human governments today have God's approval. Or is Satan the ruler of the world? (Matthew 4) Didn't Satan “tempt” Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. How could he give it if it wasn't his to give? So when a human kingdom decides to go to war and kill, is it God's will? Or is it just stuff happening? Even though there are those praying on both sides, God is not listening.Quote After all it says that the rightoeus will inherit the earth.
Yes, but are you the judge of who these are?Quote (david @ June 17 2006,06:13) Quote I have a question for you nick. If this military man goes to war and kills a fellow believer on the other side, the other country, does that demonstrate “love among yourselves,” as spoken of by Jesus? Judge for yourself. JOHN 13:34-35
“I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””Nick, if you do not know what “love” is, how can you possibly show it to others?
Hi david,
You want to talk about matters of the world.
But this is a biblical forum and we study the Word and seek the Will of God in the knowledge that He is in charge of all matters pertaining to us. So we do not need to build sandcastles of anxiety about what theoretical situations our imaginations may fantasise about.
Phil 4.6
“Be anxious for nothing but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be known to God”
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