- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote OK, let's say one of the objectives of WWII was for Hitler to take over the territories and nations of the world. That would be related to the kingdoms of this world.
Right. Sorry, I forgot you were talking about kingdoms as land and I was talking about them as governments, (me, meaning that you would be fighting for or with a kingdom or government, and you, meaning that you would be fighting for land.) Sorry, I forgot we cleared this up.Did the early Christians show love among all, in their refusal to engage in military action?
Quote (TJStarfire @ May 08 2006,16:32) NO PERSON can be a follower of Christ if they turn their back on;
Love your enemy, do good to those who Hate you…Any spoken claims contrary to that is not only bearing false witness to GOD,
But also makes one an oath breaker before GOD.
Hi TJS,Sorry that I did not respond to you earlier:
How does NOT defending those whom you love in time of danger fulfill the command to love your enemy, and to do good to them that hate you? And How does loving and so defending brother/neighbor violate the command to also love your enemy?
Tell me how love is fulfilled towards the enemy by not defending the sheep and laying down one's life for them [the sheep]? And tell me if this is the point that Jesus was making with Peter and the sword?
Quote (david @ May 09 2006,08:11) Quote OK, let's say one of the objectives of WWII was for Hitler to take over the territories and nations of the world. That would be related to the kingdoms of this world.
Right. Sorry, I forgot you were talking about kingdoms as land and I was talking about them as governments, (me, meaning that you would be fighting for or with a kingdom or government, and you, meaning that you would be fighting for land.) Sorry, I forgot we cleared this up.Did the early Christians show love among all, in their refusal to engage in military action?
I know that many were treated shamefully in accordance with the chapter on faith in Hebrews and killed for the faith whose part is in the kingdom of God.Still, in answer to you, there is such a thing as the people of God perishing for lack of knowledge and it is possible that some might have. We're trying to find out what Jesus meant.
On 09/11/01 when the U.S. mainland was attacked, you'd recall the flight that crashed over the state of Pennsylvania when ?Todd and some other passengers decided to take on the attackers.
What was their motive in doing so? Hatred? I beg to differ.
How could they have demonstrated love for the enemy?
Feeling that they could have helped to spare many more lives, even to the extent of dying with the enemy in the process, should they have done nothing? and if yes, would that have been a better demonstration of love?Jesus commanded us to love our enemy. He also said that we could not serve two masters simultaneously or at the same time. On that flight, there was an obvious conflict, not in obeying Christ, but in how or which of the two commands to obey: love of brother/neighbor AND love of enemy. One is oppressed while the other oppresses; one is killed while the other is kills… (or vice versa); The lack of action when one could act, does not in itself demonstrate love for either brother/neighbor or enemy. It could be indifference. Someone still suffers. In this case, one's brother and/or neighbor. Are we not permitted to make judgments righteously?
The case of the Sabbath: demonstrate love for the pharisees and let the sick go unhealed another day, or seemingly show unkindness to the pharisees and liberate and heal the oppressed. One or the other. To have done nothing would in effect have ruled in favor of the Pharisees.
Finally, more than what the early Christians did, we have Cornelius and at least one other devout soldier, who were found approved and fully baptized in God's own holy spirit.
If you could show me how inaction demonstrates love for my brother/neighbor AND enemy, I'll listen.
Quote How does NOT defending those whom you love violate the command to love your enemy, and to do good to them that hate you? (Please do not confuse defense with avenge). Tell me how love is demonstrated towards my enemy by my not defending the sheep and laying down my life for them? And tell me if this is the point that Jesus was making with Peter and the sword?
That part of what Christ told us finishes with;
and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Where are you commanded by Christ to defend anyone?
I say unto you, That ye resist not evil(Matt 5)Do you think that supporting Bush in his false witness war is defending some thing for GOD?
Quote (TJStarfire @ May 10 2006,16:59) That part of what Christ told us finishes with;
and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;Where are you commanded by Christ to defend anyone?
I say unto you, That ye resist not evil(Matt 5)Do you think that supporting Bush in his false witness war is defending some thing for GOD?
- To your first point, I agree and do pray for others in like manner.
- Defend/love, lay down one's life for his friends/sheep.
- I never said anything about Bush, TJS. Not a word whatsover.
Cubes, you often speak of defending your neighbors in war.
This is not really what war is.
War is seldom what it appears to be. It often is the cause of greed. It often pretends to be one thing, but really has ulterior motives. There is pride and the belief that My country is better than yours. There is hatred and predjudice. And it is rarely “clear good guy” verses “clear bad guy.” Of course, it always seems that way because you are in one of those countries or a friend of one of those countries and therefore get their news footage and their side of the story.
The terror caused by those planes and the mass devestation that resulted was obviously wrong. (Many of the things that were done in retaliation or before were also wrong.) The ones who caused the terror felt one hundred percent in the right in doing what they did. They believed they were “defending” their way of life. They believed killing people was the right way to do that. People suffer on both sides because of the greed and politics of imperfect people in power. The people on one side only see their own suffering because this is all the government allows them to see. Their own side is always the right side. Their own side is always the side that needs defending.
About those who took action on the plane. While I see the comparison, I would not really say this is the same as actively deciding beforehand to be a soldier and be the one who does the killing. A Christians duty is not to protect the world. A Christian is in fact, to be “no part of the world.” There will always be worldy people who are willing to start the fights and step in and end the fights and then start the fight again. What does this have to do with Christianity? The world is at odds with true Christianity.
If you were on that plane and a true Christian, you wouldn't have been in morbid fear of dying. Even in that situation you would have had the hope of the resurrection. Yet, Cubes, had you been one of the ones who stood up and attacked those people, who had taken the plane, I would have been with you.Quote Finally, more than what the early Christians did, we have Cornelius and at least one other devout soldier, who were found approved and fully baptized in God's own holy spirit. CORNELIUS, AND SERGIUS PAULUS
Some may ask, ‘What of Cornelius, the centurion, and Sergius Paulus, the army-backed proconsul in Cyprus? Were not these men associated with the military?’ Yes, at the time they accepted the Christian message. The Scriptures, though, do not tell us what Cornelius and others did after their conversion. No doubt Sergius Paulus, who was an intelligent man and “astounded at the teaching of Jehovah,” would soon scrutinize his secular position in the light of his newfound faith and make a proper decision. Cornelius would have done likewise. (Acts 10:1, 2, 44-48; 13:7, 12) There is no record that the disciples told them what action they must take. They could see that from their own study of God’s Word.—Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:3.Quote If you could show me how inaction demonstrates love for my brother/neighbor AND enemy, I'll listen.
If your brother/ eighbors are those who live in your country, and your enemy are people of other countries, then I can't show you this.You know Cubes, you don't really have an enemy. Your government does. You're real enemy is Satan. Satan wants you to disobey God's ways.
Do not follow him.1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”Quote Hi,
This forum is about “love among all”. Please use the appropriate forums.I wasn't the one who first brought in the counter point of those who turn against Christ.
When talking about being required to Love, what is wrong with the mention of those who preach Hate?
Sorry if i touched a sore spot in some However, We are told to beware.
Matt 7 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 11 2006,08:58) Hi,
This forum is about “love among all”. Please use the appropriate forums.
Sorry, Nick. I didn't get you the first time.Hi cubes and TJS,
No problem. We all have to give answers at times in the wrong forum but then we really have to redirect the thread.There are three or for being fed with warfare ideas at the moment and it is not a directly biblical matter so should be limited to one or two in my view.
And if we want to track down posts in the future we will have trouble finding them if they are not under the topic.
Quote No problem. We all have to give answers at times in the wrong forum but then we really have to redirect the thread. Well then I see we need to redirect every post here.
I don't see one yet answering this threads question.
Which religion actually practices Christianity?
Hi TJS,
The true definition of religion is in James 1.27Jesus did not come to set up religions, men did that.
He came with a message of individual salvation for men how would obey God. If they would follow the way he preached then they could truly worship and serve God.
I agree, and I don't see any one religion that teaches the core beliefs of Christ.
and today most religions openly reject that ghosts and spirits can be anything but evil.Hi TJS,
Religion is the interface or attempted interface between God and man.
Man attempts to make a bridge to God but Christ is the only intermediary and only in him do we have access to God.Only in Christ are we all individual temples in which God is worshipped and served.
None of the groupings which men make are made according to an assembly of the saved but according to human leaders and teachers and doctrines.
“God knows those who are His”
Quote Religion is the interface or attempted interface between God and man.
Man attempts to make a bridge to God but Christ is the only intermediary and only in him do we have access to God.That is probably true. However, they are not in this part of their universe at present.
And the bridge they left for us is called the Holy Ghost.Quote (TJStarfire @ May 14 2006,22:01) Quote Religion is the interface or attempted interface between God and man.
Man attempts to make a bridge to God but Christ is the only intermediary and only in him do we have access to God.That is probably true. However, they are not in this part of their universe at present.
And the bridge they left for us is called the Holy Ghost.
Hi TJS,
Anyone can still become joined with Christ and share that Spirit. The gate is not yet closed.Hi TJS,
The menial work of cleansing is not the work of the treasure that will live forever in us.It is our responsiblity to repent, to seek baptism and to cast aside our evil ways according to the new inward teacher and according to the Word.
In the second post of this thread, T8 writes:
Quote Ephesians 6
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.Our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. If we fight with the weapons of this world, then we are truly deluded.
2 Corinthians 10
4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.So are you saying, T8, that “if we fight with the weapons of this world, then we are truly deluded”?
A Christian will remember that the mark of a true Christian is love for all his fellow believers, even those who live in other lands or those belonging to other tribes. (John 13:34, 35; 1 Peter 2:17)
I believe it is deluded to think that a true Christian would find himself in a situation where he kills his brother. This does not show “love among themselves [fellow Christians]” that Jesus stated. Does it?david
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
