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Hello David:
Quote I didn't say my position in the highly unlikely train scenario was to not act. If I only had a second to decide, I feel I would probably act, unless frozen in shock. I shall likely freeze too.
I can't articulate why but there is a difference to me between the two paradoxes. In the first instance, all the children are on the train tracks… one is very reactionary, in much the same way that one might reach out to stay oneself when falling, whereas the second scenario is premeditative. The train is going to hit anyway leaving someone(s) dead. You simply make the best decision as to reduce the extent of the loss.
In the second scenario, the girl outside is nowhere involved in what is going on. My total sum of belief tells me that abducting and killing her to save the others would be wrong and for me it would be sin so I would hope not to do it.
Quote Certainly, Peter’s sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would undoubtedly have ‘perished by the sword.’ (Mt 26:47) Quote True. Again, most common folks are led as sheep to the slaughter for they lack the means to protect themselves anyway… Most do not bear arms and are still killed. But it is true that bearing arms somehow increases one's chances of being killed similarly.
More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have failed, being completely contrary to Jehovah God’s purpose. (Mt 26:53, 54) The lesson Jesus was trying to teach you Cubes is simply stated:
‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’I disagree with your conclusion:
Even before this time, Peter had asked Jesus to not lay down his life and was sharply rebuked by Christ. Why? This was a difficult task Jesus had to undergo, he had in full agreement with his Father, made up his mind to go through with it having no other recourse for our sakes… he was not going to let even his friends stand in his way or weaken his resolve. There was no point at that stage in delaying what HAD TO BE DONE anymore because the time had arrived; he had told Judas Iscariot to hasten and get it over with. He was ready.
Again, It was not at all indicative of Military service or defense. The swords had nothing to do with him but his friends were going to need them because things were going to get rough after his demise and ascension.
Had he not repeatedly associated the prophecies concerning his life, death and resurrection with his arrest, I would agree with you. And in fact, I also always felt the same until a few days ago when I noticed the difference. But he made it clear that it was a thing he had to do. That alone was the POINT, for had it not been, he said that his servants would fight for him plus the more than 12 legions of his Father's angels and you could rest assure he would have not been taken. So he surrended, for the gospel, and it had nothing to do with whether or not we are to join the army.
If his kingdom were of this world, his servants would fight for that kingdom. I agree Christians do not and should not fight for the kingdoms of this world.
Was WWII a fight for the kingdoms of this world or a purpose to exterminate the undesired of this world?
Was Rwanda a fight for the kingdoms of this world or genocide?
What of Somalia and other ones?
What wars were being fought against Israel in those days, besides the occupation which was not at that time warring, to which we might look and have actual examples?
How did Jesus rebuke the Centurion and or advise him for being in the army?Nice chatting. It'd be some days before I can respond again.
If every righteous person took the attitude of no-defense so that tyrants ruled and enslaved the peoples of every nation, how would that have facilitated the preaching of the gospel? How would that have advanced your mission with you all dead or enslaved because no one cared to stand up and defend? By this I do not mean that the gospel is to be advanced in violence.
Your position rather reminds me of the Shakers, who are to be admired for a lot of things. But they also got it wrong when they decided to make celibacy their way of life when God had not demanded such a thing of everyone. They eventually died off not bringing new life into the world, leaving only their beautiful furniture and workmanships (or at least most of them have); and now, us not so righteous Christians are having to carry on the work of the gospel. Why must it be so?
Quote There was no point at that stage in delaying what HAD TO BE DONE anymore because the time had arrived;
Right, and this is one reason I believe that the two swords were to teach a lesson. They were not to be used as Peter used it.Quote Again, It was not at all indicative of Military service or defense. The swords had nothing to do with him but his friends were going to need them because things were going to get rough after his demise and ascension.
Ok, upon finding only two swords, why did he say: “It is enough,” then?Quote he said that his servants would fight for him plus the more than 12 legions of his Father's angels and you could rest assure he would have not been taken.
This isn't what he said. He said: Put your sword away.
“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?”
He didn't say his servants would fight for him “plus” the angels. He said that fighting wasn't necessary. Had they not had the TWO swords, this point would not have been made: “all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”
Certainly, Peter’s sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would undoubtedly have ‘perished by the sword.’ (Mt 26:47) More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have failed, being completely contrary to Jehovah God’s purpose. (Mt 26:53, 54) As it was, later that day Jesus could plainly state to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—Joh 18:36.Quote If his kingdom were of this world, his servants would fight for that kingdom. I agree Christians do not and should not fight for the kingdoms of this world.
Good, now that that's settled….Quote Was WWII a fight for the kingdoms of this world or a purpose to exterminate the undesired of this world?
I would call it more of a bloodbath. WORLD War II was the second time the WORLD went to war. I wonder exactly how you believe Christians are to be “no part of the world.”Quote Was WWII a fight for the kingdoms of this world
They may not have been fighting “for” (to gain) kingdoms or governments. But if you fought in WWII, you were fighting “for” a kingdom, and not God's kingdom.Quote How did Jesus rebuke the Centurion and or advise him for being in the army?
This scripture comes to mind:
“Why is it that YOUR teacher eats with tax collectors and sinners?” Hearing [them], he said: “Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do. Go, then, and learn what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”At the time he accepted the Christian message, he was involved in the military. The Scriptures, though, do not tell us what Cornelius and others did after their conversion. No doubt Sergius Paulus, who was an intelligent man and “astounded at the teaching of Jehovah,” would soon scrutinize his secular position in the light of his newfound faith and make a proper decision. Cornelius would have done likewise. (Acts 10:1, 2, 44-48; 13:7, 12) There is no record that the disciples told them what action they must take. They could see that from their own study of God’s Word.—Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:3.
Quote If every righteous person took the attitude of no-defense so that tyrants ruled and enslaved the peoples of every nation, how would that have facilitated the preaching of the gospel?
Well, we are currently preaching in 235 lands and hundreds of languages. You will have great difficulty hiding from Jehovah's Witnesses and the good news of the kingdom.
So, in answer to your “theoretical” question, if every “righteous” person (someone who follows God's direction) took the attitude of not killing other beings made in God's image, I imagine it wouldn't have a great effect as the world will continue to kill people despite what those few do.Quote How would that have advanced your mission with you all dead or enslaved because no one cared to stand up and defend?
I believe this is an impossible scenerio. Scripture fortells the the good news “must” be preached first. Then the end will come. Plus the “righteous” you speak of are always the few, the wicked the many. They will continue to kill one another until Jehovah puts an end to human governements–with or without true Christians, they will do this.Quote Your position rather reminds me of the Shakers,
And your position reminds me of every other person on the planet. How do you differ from the world?Hi,
This forum is about love among the brothers.
Jesus had told his followers to ” love one another as I have loved you.”
His love was unto death.Well Shinobi
What religion practices love among all peoples?
Did you get your answer?
I didn't see a single one mentioned yetCould it be time to start one?
Hi tjs,
The key to the blessing of the Word of God is by receiving the Spirit of God who wrote it through men. Have you not yet been blessed in this way if you do not find food for your soul unto eternal life? We all need it because man cannot live by bread alone but by every woird that comes from the mouth of God.Quote The key to the blessing of the Word of God is by receiving the Spirit of God who wrote it through men. Have you not yet been blessed in this way if you do not find food for your soul unto eternal life? I am hieratic,
I believe that the key to understanding is being baptized into the Holy Spirit.
Literally move your mind from the body of flesh into your spirit body.And yes I have been baptized by water and by the Holy Spirit.
I know that bread only feeds the flesh,
while knowledge and belief are carried into the Spirit.Quote (TJStarfire @ May 06 2006,21:14) I am hieratic,
Hi TJS,
What does this mean?The Word is the bread of life[Jn 6]
Quote This forum is about love among the brothers.
Jesus had told his followers to ” love one another as I have loved you.”
His love was unto death.So certainly they wouldn't kill their brothers then. True Christians would be advocates of God's Kingdom and not get mixed up in the squables of human governments. To do so would lead to them killing fellow believers.
Quote Quote (TJStarfire @ May 06 2006,21:14)
I am hieratic,Hi TJS,
What does this mean?
The spelling looks like he may have been aiming for heretic, a person believing in or practicing heresy. But I don't know how much sense that makes.Sorry about that, David is right I used the wrong word I
wasn't infering priestly writtings.
I meant Heretic, It is a name attributed to those who present ideas which are contrary to popular opinion, belief, and/or the status quo of any practice or branch of knowledge.Heretic It is a name attributed to those who present ideas which are contrary to popular opinion, belief,
and/or the status quo of any practice or branch of knowledge.I believe that Christ was presenting a truth when He declared that GOD is a Spirit.
John 4 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The lord of the Spirits in fact, even those cast out of heaven,
The same ones that Jesus cast out of the people they possessed during His time.I believe in Ghosts and Spirits as literal beings made by GOD in His realm.
I believe that the breath of GOD anchored a piece of Himself,
His spirit to flesh when He formed Adam & Eve.
When we procreate those pieces of Him spark a new spirit and
causes DNA to join growing our bodies of flesh along with its attached spirit.Genesis 6 The LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:
He put a time limit on how long His Spirit would be at strife with flesh so that when the flesh dies it gives up the ghost or releases
Our part of His Spirit to return to the place He has created for it in His realm.Hi David:
Quote Quote There was no point at that stage in delaying what HAD TO BE DONE anymore because the time had arrived;
Right, and this is one reason I believe that the two swords were to teach a lesson. They were not to be used as Peter used it.They were not to be used at that specific time and for that specific occasion. After all, if God willed, a single sword could do the job on its own or God could defend by any other method he chose to employ.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Quote Quote Again, It was not at all indicative of Military service or defense. The swords had nothing to do with him but his friends were going to need them because things were going to get rough after his demise and ascension.
Ok, upon finding only two swords, why did he say: “It is enough,” then?Why did he ask them to bring money bags and knapsacks and swords? Were these going to be required items at his arrest, crucifixion, resurrection? And if not, were they also to be abolished in the lives of the disciples?
After all, Jesus also said that we are not to worry about what to eat or drink because the Father knows our needs and it is he who robes the lillies in the fields and feeds the sparrows? Did he not prove this by feeding thousands with a couple of fishes and loaves?
Put your sword back in its sheath because first of all, this is not that kind of war or fight. Secondly, there are other ways by which conflicts may be successfully resolved besides the use of swords.
This moment that demanded all the miracles of heaven, Jesus and his Father had chosen to let the power of darkness have its way for a limited time and for a purpose. It was to be the Lamb of God facing the crosss alone as prophesied. The event was not going to require money bags, knapsacks any more than it would swords so for that, two swords etc were more than enough and irrelevant… but the rest of life would still require such things at various times.
Jesus could turn a couple of loaves and fishes into a feast for thousands but he didn't employ that route on a daily basis to feed himself and his friends. Thus cooking or buying food was no more abolished than swords were in the strictest sense of the word.
David:
Quote
By Cubes: “he said that his servants would fight for him plus the more than 12 legions of his Father's angels and you could rest assure he would have not been taken.”By DAVID: This isn't what he said. He said: Put your sword away.
“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?”
He didn't say his servants would fight for him “plus” the angels. … (Mt 26:47) More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have failed, being completely contrary to Jehovah God’s purpose. (Mt 26:53, 54) As it was, later that day Jesus could plainly state to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—Joh 18:36.Borrowing from your quotes, how does what I conveyed above detract from the word of God? Have I missed something?
“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?”
and/plus
“If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—Joh 18:36
Quote …Had they not had the TWO swords, this point would not have been made: “all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”
True. However, realistically speaking, the many who die by swords/weapons have never themselves ever owned such things.
Tyrants do not turn and go home because the innocent has no sword/weapon to fight back.
So the way that I understand what Jesus says certainly includes what you say but is not exclusively so.Jesus encourages other methods of problem solving whenever possible. And commands forgiveness and lack of vengeance. Again, defending oneself and others is neither unforgiveness or vengeance.
Quote Certainly, Peter’s sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would undoubtedly have ‘perished by the sword.’.. This is usually the case because ordinary folks do not own weapons nor do they undergo training in weaponry and warfare, etc so they tend to be victims when evil visits them. That is besides the point. The point is, do they have a right to defend themselves or did Jesus take away that right?
Quote If his kingdom were of this world, his servants would fight for that kingdom. I agree Christians do not and should not fight for the kingdoms of this world. Good, now that that's settled….
We always agreed on that point, David.
Quote Was WWII a fight for the kingdoms of this world or a purpose to exterminate the undesired of this world? I would call it more of a bloodbath. WORLD War II was the second time the WORLD went to war. I wonder exactly how you believe Christians are to be “no part of the world.”
In a nutshell, the difference is not that we have a whole list of dos and don'ts — for Israel had that to begin with and it was not enough — but that we actually live in the freedom of God's spirit. Living and loving and holding on to no wickedness or being burdened by the goals and objectives of this world. And yes, that includes forgiveness, living peaceably with others as much as depends on us as ST reminded us, which means we are not going to be reacting to offenses in the typical ways that the world does, being sincere inside and out so that we reflect the light of Christ to the world…. chiefly loving God and loving one another and others.
And again, having to defend oneself and others that God puts into your care, does not violate any of the above.
Hi David:
Quote By Cubes: How did Jesus rebuke the Centurion and or advise him for being in the army? By DAVID: This scripture comes to mind:
“Why is it that YOUR teacher eats with tax collectors and sinners?” Hearing [them], he said: “Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do. Go, then, and learn what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”At the time he accepted the Christian message, he was involved in the military. The Scriptures, though, do not tell us what Cornelius and others did after their conversion. No doubt Sergius Paulus, who was an intelligent man and “astounded at the teaching of Jehovah,” would soon scrutinize his secular position in the light of his newfound faith and make a proper decision. Cornelius would have done likewise. (Acts 10:1, 2, 44-48; 13:7, 12) There is no record that the disciples told them what action they must take. They could see that from their own study of God’s Word.—Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:3.
Point of Acts 10 is that God was ready to pour out his spirit on the righteous Gentiles of whom Cornelius was already found approved in God's sight. If anything, Acts 10 refutes your stance.
Cornelius and his house along with his buddies had the Holy Spirit poured out on them. Would God pour his holy spirit into unclean vessels? He already told Peter in the vision that they were clean, speaking of believing Gentiles in general but specifically also of Cornelius and his house.
Repentence was not even mentioned for they were already God fearing. All that was left for them to do was to believe that Jesus is the son of God which they did readily and so the Holy Spirit was poured out upon them …followed by water baptism.
David:
Quote By Cubes: If every righteous person took the attitude of no-defense so that tyrants ruled and enslaved the peoples of every nation, how would that have facilitated the preaching of the gospel? by DAVID: Well, we are currently preaching in 235 lands and hundreds of languages. You will have great difficulty hiding from Jehovah's Witnesses and the good news of the kingdom.
So, in answer to your “theoretical” question, if every “righteous” person (someone who follows God's direction) took the attitude of not killing other beings made in God's image, I imagine it wouldn't have a great effect as the world will continue to kill people despite what those few do.You cannot deny that at least in some of those 235 lands, the laws of those lands are tolerant to your members because some sacrifices were made by others to ensure that you could have that freedom to freely share your beliefs.
Secondly, by the grace of God, his gospel is widely preached over the face of the earth by the most unlikely individuals, many of whom are not of your organization.Ultimately, all that is God's own doing and to his glory only.
Quote by Cubes: Your position rather reminds me of the Shakers,……. By DAVID:And your position reminds me of every other person on the planet. How do you differ from the world?
And now here is a demonstration of what Jesus was trying to get us to not do! You were offended by what I said and so you swung your verbal sword at me as it were. This was not a case of defense, it was one of vengeance, though I think I was kinder in comparing you to the Shakers as opposed to you comparing me to the world…who only died out because of folly or ignorance and not due to sin.
These are examples of the actual things in our lives that Jesus is concerned with. The issue therefore is not related to whether or not one should or should not defend one's house in the face of evil. At such a time, one has a duty to stay alive as much as depends on him/herself and that certainly begins with calling on the Most High God for deliverance. The accounts in Esther and Daniel are such examples in the Bible. And yes, we do live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, and that includes, putting our swords back in their sheaths as much as depends on us.
Quote Quote
If his kingdom were of this world, his servants would fight for that kingdom. I agree Christians do not and should not fight for the kingdoms of this world.Good, now that that's settled….
We always agreed on that point, David.
Cubes, this statement confused me the first time. And it is again confusing me.
What I see is, you saying:
“Christians should not fight for the kingdoms (governments) of this world.”Well, that's basically my theme in everything I've said on this thread. Could you explain again, why you say this.
NO PERSON can be a follower of Christ if they turn their back on;
Love your enemy, do good to those who Hate you…Any spoken claims contrary to that is not only bearing false witness to GOD,
But also makes one an oath breaker before GOD.Quote (david @ May 08 2006,06:49) Quote Quote
If his kingdom were of this world, his servants would fight for that kingdom. I agree Christians do not and should not fight for the kingdoms of this world.Good, now that that's settled….
We always agreed on that point, David.
Cubes, this statement confused me the first time. And it is again confusing me.
What I see is, you saying:
“Christians should not fight for the kingdoms (governments) of this world.”Well, that's basically my theme in everything I've said on this thread. Could you explain again, why you say this.
OK, let's say one of the objectives of WWII was for Hitler to take over the territories and nations of the world. That would be related to the kingdoms of this world.But he also specifically targetted the Jews primarily. The Jews may have felt like Germans, Americans, Canadians, etc because they were born in these countries and had dwelt there for ages…but they never claimed any of these lands to be their own. They did not dispute with Hitler over Germany or any other European nation as most consider Israel to be their true homeland. For this reason, Hitler was not out to get them for the Kingdom of Germany but to simply rid Europe of them.
To have stood by and done nothing would not be consistent with “thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self.” It goes the other way too. And from what I understand, most reluctantly joined the effort to save the Jews only when their own interests were threatened. This would be the reason why pastors like Dietrich Bonhoeffer joined the effort on behalf of the innocent and he was killed on account of it.
I liked Bonhoeffer for his book, “The Cost of Discipleship.” Then a couple of years ago I saw a documentary about him which first told me about his role in WWII. Much as I hated the holocaust, I felt somewhat disillusioned: Christians are not supposed to get entangled with the affairs of wars. Just like you David. I don't realize exactly when my views changed, but I believe it happened on here when I read the account involving Jesus' arrest, and realized that Jesus was speaking specifically to his arrest and not to every single act of violence brought against the innocent. I started remembering Rwanda and things like that and realized that being killed for the kingdom of God while in the capacity of doing his work, is not how most people get killed. And most people do not get slaughtered for fighting for the kingdoms of this world so the situation needs to be looked at again. And fighting to protect defenseless ones like Anne Franks (who died) is not an act of hatred towards one's enemies. It is an act to protect or defend and the two aren't the same.
FROM HOLOCAUST by Charles Reznikoff
When the Second World War began he was living in Lodz with his mother. The family was hungry and his mother became blated from hungr- as many were. His mother and her family escaped from the ghetto in Lodz and fled to the Warsaw ghetto; but there it became much worse: his mother had sold every thing she had and they had nothing to eat. She then told him to get to the Lublin area where other members of the family lived, and he escaped to a small town.
One morning he heard cries and shrieking: the Germans were taking the Jews to the market place. They crowded them into freight cars and he was among them. There was hardly room to stand and many fainted. But the journey took only two or three hours and they were brought to a death camp. When they got off the train they were hurried to a small gate, the SS men shouting, “hurry! hurry!” And there the men were taken from the women and children. While this was going on a band was playing.
The men stayed there all night but the women and children were taken at once to the gas chambers. Many of the Jews had not believed there would be any mass extermination – a few murders, of course; and even when they were jammed into the frieght cars, many were happy not to be going to a camp they knew to be a hard labour camp and going eastward instead: it had been rumoured that they would be taken to the Ukraine to work in the fields now that Germany had taken over most of it. But some remembered a Jew who had come to town and said: “Do not believe what you are told. The Jews are not being taken to the Ukraine; they are sent to death camps – and killed there.' But nobody believed him; they thought he was just trying to start a panic. And even in the camp they had now been sent to – a few hundred feet from the gas chambers – the men were told by the Germans that in a few weeks they would rejoin their families. They saw the belongings of the women and children piled up; but the Germans said; “They are getting new clothes. You are going to be gathered together and then sent to the Ukraine.”
There were really three camps at the camp: One for shoemakers, tailors, and other crafsmen; another for those who worked at sorting the clothes of those who came in the transports and were gassed; and the third camp where the gas chambers were. The morning after the arrival of the Jewish men who had just come, the Germans began to sort them: choosing the young and able-bodied by saying , 'du' – the German familiar for 'you.' In about half an hour most of the men who had come in that transport had been taken to the gas chambers and only about a hundred and fifty were left to work:the young man who had fled from Warsaw to the Lublin area among them.
He was put to work taking and piling up the clothing of the people who had come – and were coming – in the transports and kept seeing that many who had come disappeared. After the young man had worked for a while the first day, he was dazed and as he stood, dazed and benumbed – he was only fifteen then – a Jew came up to him and said, “my boy, if you are going to behave this way, you are not going to survive here.” After the Jew who had recognized the man from his home town had been working in the woods for some time, other Jews from his own town were among the dead and among them – his wife and his two children! He lay down next to his wife and children and wanted the Germans to shoot him; but one of the SS men said:
you still have enough strength to work,” and pushed him away. That evening he tried to hang himself but his friends in the cellar would not let him and said, “as long as your eyes are open, there is hope.” The next day the man who had tried to die was on a truck.They were still in the woods and he asked one of the SS men for a cigarette. He himself did not smoke usually but he lit the cigarette and, when he was back where his companions were sitting, said: “Look here! He gives out cigarettes. Why don't you all ask him for a cigarette?” They all got up – they were in the back of the truck – and went forwards and he was left behind. He had a Little knife and made a slit in the taupaulin at the side and jumped out: came down on his knees but got up and ran. By the time the SS men began shooting he was gone in the woods.
REST ON, DEAR ONES by “Cubes” July14, 1997
Rest on, dear ones
You have earned it
Soon will come a time,
The time for your awakening
A time when your seemingly silent God
Shall make his voice heard
Above the thundering guns and bombs of hatred
Above the searing burns of ovens, the world
And the deafening sounds of gas chambers
Above the wailing voices
Of our deeply felt pain and remorse
Rest now, dear ones
Until the awakening when
The Lord shall gather unto himself
Those whom he has seen fit
To bear
The grief
Of the world
Rest a little while longer, dear ones!(Revelation 6:9-11)
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