- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Well John the Baptist never told the soldier to leave the army, only to harm no man.
A tough call that one.
I believe there is a coming battle in which we will come with Jesus and it gets pretty vengeful and bloody by all accounts.
Love is corrective, God is a jealous God, and He says vengeance is mine.
So there is definately such a thing as a God led war.
As for the wars of men, these are motivated by greed, politics and corruption.
So much so that even what appears to be a righteous cause is never so simple.Quote Hi david,
You assume far too much about what I believe.Quote Nick apparently believes we should obey the government and go to war, if that's what the governement wants. If that is not what you believe, just say so. Say: “I do not believe we should obey the governments and go to war, if that's what the government wants.” Say it, and there will be no more misunderstandings. And if you can't say it, then why accuse me of “assuming” wrongly.
Quote You have built up a moral tower from which you pontificate and judge people of the world in their day to day lives. You are entitled to your opinions, no matter how strong and independant of scriptural support they may be, but it is a waste of time judging those of the world. In doing so you show that you too are still of the world despite your protestations to the contrary.
Nick, here is where you are wrong. Apparently, I am the only one speaking here who is not “of the world,” in that I would definitely stay out of worldy conflicts, and would remain neutral.
“independant of scriptural support”?
Really Nick?To use your tactic of avoiding Bible principles and only seeing specific references, where does the Bible say: “Go to war and kill people for George Bush?”
I don't remember you quoting any scriptures while discussing this with me. I really don't. Maybe you did, but I don't remember that. I do remember myself quoting quite a number of scriptures.Nick, you strongly believe the trinity is a false belief and have no problem telling people that. What is the difference between that and me explaining how the early Christians, true Christians refused to go to war.
MATTHEW. 26:52
“Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’”
(Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)
There. That's a scripture. Now you show me one where Jesus said: 'Kill people with the sword for your earthly worldly government.'ISAIAH 2:2-4
“And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”Quote I believe there is a coming battle in which we will come with Jesus and it gets pretty vengeful and bloody by all accounts.
Love is corrective, God is a jealous God, and He says vengeance is mine.
So there is definately such a thing as a God led war.
As for the wars of men, these are motivated by greed, politics and corruption.
So much so that even what appears to be a righteous cause is never so simple.Well said, Malcolm.
Hi David,
(Sorry, I can't get the quotes right. This refers to your last response to me on the preceding page).
1. Jesus says whoever does the Father's will is his mother, brother or sister… I find greater meaning in that definition first of all as I find that natural ties has its limitations. Such that are in Christ would likely not lift the sword against one another, whereas natural siblings could and have…sadly enough.
2. Jesus says that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. For this reason, I take the word of God as a whole and therefore I too abstain from eating blood because it was said in the old testament that the life is in the blood… even though in the NT, the strict kosher diet of the OT was laxed with the doors of the faith being swung widely opened to the gentiles.
I am not saying that God advocates war but wars were fought by the Israelites in the Bible and sometimes God was on the side of Israel. Sometimes an enemy soldier would encamp round about Israel… and the people didn't just surrender and let themselves be beat upon, their wives and children pillaged…. you remember the time when King David had to go after those that came and took their wives and children…. Abraham went after the enemy for Lot…. God gave victory in both cases.
So I believe that your position is wrong…. much as I know where you are coming from and feel largely the same, I do believe that sometimes it is more ungodly to let evil triumph and do nothing about it. There is no godly love in that.
Evil is cancerous: it knows no bounds and cannot be given the benefit of doubt and be trusted to desist on its own given enough time. Thus it is good to apprehend it early once it is known for what it is.
Jesus taught us to love one another and to love our enemies, to not demand an eye for an eye etc. Having to go to war needn't be for vengeance but again, to say “this far and no more.” If taking Hitler and his gang out meant that Jews, JWs and others would not be carted out on trains to concentration camps, treated inhumanely beyond reason, gased and all those atrocities then it would be wrong of me to do nothing to resist him if I were in a position to do it!
Jesus was there when John the Baptist was imprisoned and killed. He could have sprung JTB out of prison miraculously but chose not to … do we take a policy that Jesus must not approve of innocent prisoners being released? If so, then how do we explain the miraculous releases of Peter, Paul and Silas from prison?
Thus, the across-the-board attitude that we do not go to war no matter what is not sound because it leaves the entire OT out of the consideration of that counsel, and may I add that Jesus lived by the OT.
I love and appreciate you though.
I also wish to add that when Moses told the people, “an eye for an eye…” I believe that he didn't intend it to be a policy on foreign affairs but rather a very domestic issue among the people of Israel.
When Jesus tells us to love our enemies, he is similarly speaking to individuals… person to person.We have some level of control over our personal wills, how we choose to respond to and treat others… we have very limited control on how a nation acts given the collective will. We see that in the news. It is unrealistic therefore to expect the national will to be controlled by the personal will. For this reason Joseph, when Israel and the rest of his family got to Egypt, sought a place for them in Goshen where they could live their way of life as Hebrews in peace. For this reason, God did not give his laws to Israel while they were in Egypt for the people could not have obeyed the laws of the Sabbath example. Pharoah undoubtedly did not observe the Sabbath. The people would have either had to totally disregard God's law due to the impossibility of keeping it, or would have been constantly punished or worse (if God didn't save them) for choosing to live by God's law. This is not economical or reasonable. God was not out to prove a point: who do you love more… me or Pharoah? Thus he didn't give the people an impossible goal which could not be met or to have them needlessly wearied in keeping it.
Once he had them to himself, he tried to train them in the way they should go as a people through the laws. And even that had been hard enough to the extent that Moses came to OK divorce under certain circumstances and that whole thing about an eye for an eye. Jesus came with the covenant of the Spirit referring people back to the original intentions of God…. the Eden marriage… teaching the people a better way of thinking and relating to each other through love and forgiveness from the grassroots level.
Now does that mean that when another nation comes and takes up seige against one's own with so many lives at stake, one should do nothing? That is just not the intent or attitude that I gather from the things that Jesus said. Do I love my enemy? Yes. Do I love the drug dealers who enslave countless people daily and destroy the lives of others and bring so much suffering to families? Yes. Just about everyday… I take care of them and others like that and they know I love them. Do I think they should be set free to continue harming others and not be apprehended? No. Am I glad they are in prison as punishment? No. I wish they would fall in love with Jesus and come to glorify and serve God.
Ecclesiastes 3
1To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.Thank you, ST.
1. In reading the accounts of Peter drawing the sword and what Jesus told him, Jesus was specifically speaking of his mission to the cross, and not of war nor did he intend it to be a policy on warfare. In his particular case, it was for the purpose of the cross/stake that he came into the world. That was the cup he had to drink. We shall have to assume that all evil that come upon us is of God or by his will to have the verse apply. We shall have to assume that we were brought into the world for such a purpose.
In the case of Jesus, his death and resurrection accomplished what no other man could. So he had to do it for our sake and for the love of his Father. Can we say that in the cases of all suffering? Not if the suffering is not directly related to the cross/stake of Christ and worship of God.
Most of those who died in Rwanda and elsewhere were just going about the business of living their lives. They were not being killed for the gospel necessarily so it was not for that purpose that they were necessarily created or killed… thus we needn't adopt what Jesus said to Peter to apply to all such circumstances of evil and so lay down our lives to evil men as he did. We could but those who cannot should not be condemned for resisting. Jesus doesn't.
Jesus had ordered the disciples to purchase swords but did not want the swords used in the specific instance of his defense. Why his decision not to be defended? The second question is answered by Christ himself in the verses below, but also, why the swords to begin with… I think Mr. Bob was asking that question too?
- Luke 22:35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be *accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”- Matt 26:52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will *perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”
55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me. 56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”
Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.- Jhn 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
- Luke 22:49 When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they said to Him, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered and said, “Permit even this.” And He touched his ear and healed him. 52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, captains of the temple, and the elders who had come to Him, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs? 53 When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”- Matt 22:21 …And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” 22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.
We are not to advance the Kingdom of God by means of a sword, for repentence cannot even be forced… and yet there are the things that belong to Caesar that Christians must contend with and render, and that unfortunately, sometimes include warfare.
Jesus was not inanimate. That was the case with the breaking of the Sabbath and of the woman caught in adultery. The people wanted a cut and dry answer… One size fits all… this way and always that way… Jesus said, not so fast fellas! Back up just a little here!
We really need the wisdom of God and courage to know when it is OK to deviate from normal protocol. Jesus was such an example as were people like Rachab and others who broke rules, not for personal or selfish gains, but for a greater good.
During the days of Moses, the Hebrew midwives had to lie to Pharoah about the children that were being born.
I can't remember whether or not Jesus himself had to be protected from Herod through something similar… I know he had to be sheltered in Egypt for a time.
King David and his men had to eat of the showbread, which was unlawful for most Hebrews to eat.
King David while escaping from Absalom sent out a couple of spies who had to hide in a well for their protection. A dear woman had to tell a lie for their protection.
So I would say that motive counts as much as anything. Why does one want to go to war? to take what isn't his/hers and assert control over others, etc? Or is it to protect and preserve one's God-given right to life and those of others who may be more weak? Did God not cause the Sun to stay in place for an entire day just for Joshua and the Lord's host to war and protect the Gibeonites (who weren't even Israelites for crying out loud!).
Come on guys. Jesus could not have been entirely antiwar or he would have just as soon said so. War is definitely very complicated and messy and not as simple as loving your neighbor because your neighbor may not want to be loved by you, then what do you do?
Where are you from Cubes? I wonder this because if a certain country ever goes to war with my country, I would like to know if you are one of the ones shooting at me.
Quote 1. Jesus says whoever does the Father's will is his mother, brother or sister… I find greater meaning in that definition first of all as I find that natural ties has its limitations. Such that are in Christ would likely not lift the sword against one another, whereas natural siblings could and have…sadly enough.
Hey Cubes. But this is just it. A Christian, a true Christian would not lift a sword against a fellow true Christian. It is unthinkable to suggest such a thing.
1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”
(No Christian can war against another Christian—it would be like a man fighting himself.)
1 JOHN 4:20
“If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.”
So, as you say, a true Christian wouldn't likely, no, definitely wouldn't kill his brother, his spiritual brother, would he? In war, you don't exactly wear name tags, that say “Christian.” Doing so wouldn't help anyway, as many claim to be Christian but that is shown false by their actions. So the name tags are out. How would you know whether you are jamming your sword into a brother of Christ, or into someone who isn't your brother? You wouldn't. To kill a fellow believer in Christ is unthinkable, isn't it? Does this not go against everthing the scriptures say? Do they not say to lay down your life for your brother, not 'kill your brother.'
The “children of the devil” are described as doing such things.Quote 2. Jesus says that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. For this reason, I take the word of God as a whole and therefore I too abstain from eating blood because it was said in the old testament that the life is in the blood… even though in the NT, the strict kosher diet of the OT was laxed with the doors of the faith being swung widely opened to the gentiles.
I'm not sure why you tell me this, but … interesting. See Acts 15:20,29 on how lax this abstaining from blood (which preceeded the law by the way) is.Quote I am not saying that God advocates war but wars were fought by the Israelites in the Bible and sometimes God was on the side of Israel. Sometimes an enemy soldier would encamp round about Israel… and the people didn't just surrender and let themselves be beat upon, their wives and children pillaged…. you remember the time when King David had to go after those that came and took their wives and children…. Abraham went after the enemy for Lot…. God gave victory in both cases.
No question. But the situation is completely different today. Which side is God on? Which country is God for? Which nation is God with? There are true Christians in all countries. So when one country goes to war with another country, who is God with? The one with the more Christians? (In the minds of almost everyone, God just happens to be on the side of the country in which you reside.)As I've said:
Quote Jehovah God decreed that Israel should make war to rid the Promised Land of the depraved Canaanites. (Leviticus 18:1, 24-28; Deuteronomy 20:16-18) Just as God had punished evildoers by means of a deluge in Noah’s day and fire in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, so he wielded the nation of Israel as his sword of execution.—Genesis 6:12, 17; 19:13, 24, 25.
According to the Bible, Israel fought other battles under God’s direction, usually to repel unprovoked enemy threats. When the nation obeyed Jehovah, the wars it fought ended favorably. (Exodus 34:24; 2 Samuel 5:17-25) But disaster usually resulted when Israel dared to do battle contrary to divine counsel. Consider the case of King Jeroboam. Ignoring a direct prophetic warning, he dispatched his huge army in civil war against Judah. When the mayhem finally ended, 500,000 of Jeroboam’s soldiers were dead. (2 Chronicles 13:12-18) Even faithful King Josiah once picked a battle that was not his. The rash decision cost him his life.—2 Chronicles 35:20-24.
WHAT DO THESE EVENTS SHOW? THAT IN ANCIENT ISRAEL, THE DECISION TO MAKE WAR RESTED WITH GOD. (Deuteronomy 32:35, 43) He had his people fight for SPECIFIC purposes. However, these purposes were long ago accomplished. Furthermore, Jehovah foretold that those who serve him “in the final part of the days” would “beat their swords into plowshares” and not “learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:2-4) Clearly, Biblical wars do not justify modern-day conflicts, none of which are fought under God’s direction or at his command.In the Law covenant God laid down rules for warfare that he would approve, stipulating exemptions and the manner in which this warfare was to be carried out. Such were truly holy wars of Jehovah. That is not true of the carnal warfare of any nation today.
With the establishing of the Christian congregation, a new situation came into existence. Christians are not under the Mosaic Law. Christ’s followers were to make disciples of people of all nations; so worshipers of the true God would in time be found in all those nations. However, what is the motive of those nations when they go to war? Is it to carry out the will of the Creator of all the earth or is it to further some nationalistic interest? If true Christians in one nation were to go to war against another nation, they would be fighting against fellow believers, against people who prayed for help to the same God that they did. Appropriately, Christ directed his followers to lay down the sword. (Matt. 26:52) He himself, glorified in the heavens, would henceforth carry out the execution of those who showed defiance of the true God and His will.—2 Thess. 1:6-8; Rev. 19:11-21.As well, the Israelites were directly instructed by God to act as executioners of his righteous judgments against demon-worshiping peoples, whose worship included gross sexual immorality and child sacrifice.—Deuteronomy 7:1-5; 2 Chronicles 28:3.
An evidence that the wars of ancient Israel were no ordinary conflicts is the MIRACULOUS NATURE OF THE VICTORIES that God gave the nation. For example, the ancient Israelites were once directed to use horns, jars, and torches—hardly instruments of classic warfare! On another occasion singers were positioned at the front of an Israelite army that was facing an overwhelming force of invading armies from several nations.—Judges 7:17-22; 2 Chronicles 20:10-26.Quote So I beli
eve that your position is wrong…. much as I know where you are coming from and feel largely the same, I do believe that sometimes it is more ungodly to let evil triumph and do nothing about it. There is no godly love in that.
My position is that killing your spiritual brothers or anyone else for a human government is wrong.
Jehovah has a day of vengeance.
ROMANS 12:19-21
“Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”Quote Evil is cancerous: it knows no bounds and cannot be given the benefit of doubt and be trusted to desist on its own given enough time. Thus it is good to apprehend it early once it is known for what it is. So how do you conquer the evil? Flamethrower? Grenades? What principle is behind that scripture? It is not a Christians job to police the world. A Christian is to be “no part of the world,” said Jesus. I somehow can't picture Jesus with a flamethrower. And I doubt he'd be that concerned with fighting for human governments. God's kingdom is not of this world, and it is that government Jesus supported and preached.
Quote Jesus taught us to love one another and to love our enemies, to not demand an eye for an eye etc. Having to go to war needn't be for vengeance but again, to say “this far and no more.” If taking Hitler and his gang out meant that Jews, JWs and others would not be carted out on trains to concentration camps, treated inhumanely beyond reason, gased and all those atrocities then it would be wrong of me to do nothing to resist him if I were in a position to do it!
Perhaps here is a point I haven't mentioned. DOES GOD HAVE THE POWER TO END THESE WARS, to step in and to do all the things you just described? Yet, if it is the right thing to do, at this time, why doesn't He? Do you know better than God, Cubes? Jehovah has an appointed time for such things. He is letting us see the folly of human governments and ruling ourselves.Quote Jesus was there when John the Baptist was imprisoned and killed. He could have sprung JTB out of prison miraculously but chose not to … do we take a policy that Jesus must not approve of innocent prisoners being released? If so, then how do we explain the miraculous releases of Peter, Paul and Silas from prison? THEY WERE IN PRISON FOR PREACHING THE GOOD NEWS, not for killing. Sound familiar? It does to me.
Quote Thus, the across-the-board attitude that we do not go to war no matter what is not sound because it leaves the entire OT out of the consideration of that counsel, and may I add that Jesus lived by the OT. I love and appreciate you though.
If you are uncertain as to whether one day you will find yourself with a gun in your hand, and me at the other end, in what sense do you “love” me?Rest assured, if we are at war and somehow you are standing next to a Jehovah's Witness, you can be certain that they will not kill you. They will be thrown in jail for not killing you, but they will never kill you Cubes.
Quote We have some level of control over our personal wills, how we choose to respond to and treat others… we have very limited control on how a nation acts given the collective will. We see that in the news. It is unrealistic therefore to expect the national will to be controlled by the personal will.
If you ask me Cubes, it's almost as if some unseen force (who we will call “Satan” and “the ruler of the world” and the “god of this system of things”) is behind the slaughter of war.Quote God was not out to prove a point: who do you love more… me or Pharoah?
I believe this is still the question: Who do you love more, Cubes–God, or your government?
I want you to consider that question carefully, and not simply dismiss it. IF GOD TELLS YOU TO DO ONE THING, AND YOUR GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU TO DISREGARD THAT, WHO DO YOU FOLLOW?
This is a real life situation, so please don't dismiss it. If the government were to tell you: You can't talk to others about the Bible, what would you do?Quote Now does that mean that when another nation comes and takes up seige against one's own with so many lives at stake, one should do nothing? That is just not the intent or attitude that I gather from the things that Jesus said.
Tertullian, a Christian writer born more than 100 years after Christ’s death, helps us to see how many early Christians viewed warfare and participation in it: “I think we must first inquire whether warfare is proper at all for Christians. . . . Shall it be held lawful to make an occupation of the sword, when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword shall perish by the sword? And shall the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?”
What are these things that Jesus said, to which you refer?
JOHN 15:14,17
“YOU are my friends if YOU do what I am commanding YOU. . . .These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another.”
LUKE 6:27, 28:
“I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
1 JOHN 4:20
“If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.”
1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”Quote Do I love my enemy? Yes.
Cubes, I'm going to say a sentence, and then you tell me if it sounds wrong, somehow:
“I love you as a sister and I'm going to shoot you in the head.”
Seems wrong, somehow to me.JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””Frankly, the so called Christians with blood on their hands look very similiar to the non-Christians with blood on their hands. They look the same. Should not Christians be distinct, and separate from the world and it's politics–“no part of the world,” said Jesus.
Quote King David while escaping from Absalom sent out a couple of spies who had to hide in a well for their protection. A dear woman had to tell a lie for their protection. So I would say that motive counts as much as anything. Why does one want to go to war? to take what isn't his/hers and assert control over others, etc? Or is it to protect and preserve one's God-given right to life and those of others who may be more weak? Did God not cause the Sun to stay in place for an entire day just for Joshua and the Lord's host to war and protect the Gibeonites (who weren't even Israelites for crying out loud!).
Do not these miraculous accounts seem to indicate a dfference between those wars which clearly had God's backing and the messed up slaughter of people today? If one country makes the sun stand still, I will support them in war–how about that.
Quote Come on guys. Jesus could not have been entirely antiwar or he would have just as soon said so.
Jesus isn't entirely antiwar. The war of the great day of God the Almighty is approaching. It's a war he will certainly have a role in. But these human wars, human fights, football games, the chess game I'm playing–are different.Quote Jesus isn't entirely antiwar. The war of the great day of God the Almighty is approaching. It's a war he will certainly have a role in. But these human wars, human fights, football games, the chess game I'm playing–are different. 
good analogyWhere did I overstate, misquote or redirect, for example (sorry I don't know how to maintain the boxes around a series of quotes).
“He was inculcating the principle of avoiding quarrels by not replying or reacting in kind. A slap on the cheek is not intended to injure physically but only to insult or to provoke into a fight.”
This is one of those cases where you misquote. Neither I nor I'm sure anyone else on this forum is saying we should take up a sword and kill our brother due to an insult. You always change defending others to our slaughter of our brothers.
“So YOU want to solve the world's problems, fix all the injustices. What can you do? I thought it was God's kingdom we looked to for the solutions, not human governments.
Vengeance is MINE. I shall repay, says Jehovah.”This is one of those examples were you overstate what I've said. Once again I'm not talking being aggressive I'm talking defense.
No reasonable person wants a war least of all a christian and to risk your life to save others I believe falls under “no greater love has any man then to lay down his life”
“And we would especially love our brothers, despite what country they live in. So how could we then pick up a sword and slaughter them?”
And are you showing love to your brothers in other countries if they are being slaughtered and you stand by?
“But Christians are to be separate and distinct and different from this world. They are to be “peaceable.””
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. I would not start a war as far as it depends on me, but defending the defenseless is different.
“So it is you who decides if it is a just war?”
More or less yes. Are we incapable of making judgments? And it also follows that if Christians are only fighting to defend themselves or others and abstaining from aggression then you don't have brother killing brother.
“I believe defending yourself personally if someone on the street attacks you is far different from deciding to pick up a gun and engage in your countries war.”
How so if both are for defense?
“Was it not a noble thing to fight thus in behalf of the Son of God?”
Wasn't it a noble thing that when Jesus announced his coming death to proclaim “may it never be”…? In both cases he was found going against God's will.
Late for work got to run.
Quote 1 JOHN 3:10-12
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should have love for one another; not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother.”David, you are mixing defense/protection with vengeance and hatred. The motives are not the same.
Yesterday, I watched in part the Frontline documentary on Rwanda again. It was definitely a dark hour orchestrated by the power of darkness. On this one occasion, the aggressors stopped a red cross vehicle in transit and killed six of the injured as they had been in the habit of doing. I don't know whether they stopped at six because that was all that were on board, or that the bad guys were apprehended somehow… on another occasion, it was reported that the attackers were literally mobbing vehicles to attack those who were attempting to escape. Some had to do all they could to shove them off. Having no weapons, they used their legs to repel their attackers and keep the occupants of the vehicles safe…
Someone might have had a gun and the required courage and so fire on the attackers to leave them alone to ride out to safety… would you call that vengeance or something done out of hatred? I don't see Jesus judging such a scenario as unrighteousness.
Your view is that Jesus says love your enemy so let's stand by and let evil ran its course because we have not received a “thus saith the Lord,” and there is a day of the Lord coming, and Jesus says “love one another…” I think he gave us more responsibility than that, i.e. within the scope to love others as we love ourselves.
I love myself, therefore I would not purposely harm myself. And yet, if I have a wound that is spreading, I might have to seemingly harm myself in the process of containing that wound. I may have to have surgery and cut off some parts of my body to save the greater part. There was the courageous mountain climber who pinned between a rock and a hard place, actually cut off his own arm in order to preserve his enitre life! I seem to remember some Jesus commandments along those lines and I thought “wow!” It all depends on what is at stake.
http://www.google.com/search?….off+arm
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
I am saying that it is rather unrighteous to do nothing when one could. I am saying that the willingness to assist or protect the six does not mean that one hates.
Quote I believe this is still the question: Who do you love more, Cubes–God, or your government?
I want you to consider that question carefully, and not simply dismiss it. IF GOD TELLS YOU TO DO ONE THING, AND YOUR GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU TO DISREGARD THAT, WHO DO YOU FOLLOW?
This is a real life situation, so please don't dismiss it. If the government were to tell you: You can't talk to others about the Bible, what would you do?During the Nazi reign, there were Germans in Germany who opposed Hitler as well as those in other European nations whose governments had collaborated with Hitler. These ordinary citizens of those nations resisted the oppressors and so helped the Jews. Some may have HAD TO kill an attacker to protect in some instances… I cannot see Jesus condemning such ones. Most people who are oppressed can't bring themselves to kill anyway, they are often immobilized by fear or helpless, but others could and what I am saying is that, I will not judge those who can as sinners for doing so.
We should not side with an evil regime against the innocent, even if that regime happens to be our country.
Quote (david @ May 04 2006,07:19) Quote King David while escaping from Absalom sent out a couple of spies who had to hide in a well for their protection. A dear woman had to tell a lie for their protection. So I would say that motive counts as much as anything. Why does one want to go to war? to take what isn't his/hers and assert control over others, etc? Or is it to protect and preserve one's God-given right to life and those of others who may be more weak? Did God not cause the Sun to stay in place for an entire day just for Joshua and the Lord's host to war and protect the Gibeonites (who weren't even Israelites for crying out loud!).
Do not these miraculous accounts seem to indicate a dfference between those wars which clearly had God's backing and the messed up slaughter of people today? If one country makes the sun stand still, I will support them in war–how about that.
Quote Come on guys. Jesus could not have been entirely antiwar or he would have just as soon said so.
Jesus isn't entirely antiwar. The war of the great day of God the Almighty is approaching. It's a war he will certainly have a role in. But these human wars, human fights, football games, the chess game I'm playing–are different.
Speaking of miraculous accounts: What do you make of the Six Day and the Yom Kippur Wars that were fought by Israel back in the ?60s and 70s?I believe that those victories were of biblical proportions and that God led them to victories given the odds against them.
Interestingly too, the Tutsis were amazingly declared the victors of that Rwandan Civil war, according to the documentary, in spite of the fact that upwards of 800,000 or a million of their members were reportedly slaughtered till Hutus were said to have been running out of victims!And now as Christians, do we hate Hutus or the Nazis or which ever group and take vengeance into our hands? Indeed not. We apply the scriptures such as Romans 12:19-21 which you shared… and rather pray for those that hate us, love our enemies etc.
Still, there is a time for everything: a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing…
By the grace of God, you needn't ever have to worry about me taking up arms against you or anybody else as I desire no harm towards anyone.
Quote (seekingtruth @ May 04 2006,13:58) Where did I overstate, misquote or redirect, for example (sorry I don't know how to maintain the boxes around a series of quotes). “He was inculcating the principle of avoiding quarrels by not replying or reacting in kind. A slap on the cheek is not intended to injure physically but only to insult or to provoke into a fight.”
This is one of those cases where you misquote. Neither I nor I'm sure anyone else on this forum is saying we should take up a sword and kill our brother due to an insult. You always change defending others to our slaughter of our brothers.
“So YOU want to solve the world's problems, fix all the injustices. What can you do? I thought it was God's kingdom we looked to for the solutions, not human governments.
Vengeance is MINE. I shall repay, says Jehovah.”This is one of those examples were you overstate what I've said. Once again I'm not talking being aggressive I'm talking defense.
No reasonable person wants a war least of all a christian and to risk your life to save others I believe falls under “no greater love has any man then to lay down his life”
“And we would especially love our brothers, despite what country they live in. So how could we then pick up a sword and slaughter them?”
And are you showing love to your brothers in other countries if they are being slaughtered and you stand by?
“But Christians are to be separate and distinct and different from this world. They are to be “peaceable.””
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. I would not start a war as far as it depends on me, but defending the defenseless is different.
“So it is you who decides if it is a just war?”
More or less yes. Are we incapable of making judgments? And it also follows that if Christians are only fighting to defend themselves or others and abstaining from aggression then you don't have brother killing brother.
“I believe defending yourself personally if someone on the street attacks you is far different from deciding to pick up a gun and engage in your countries war.”
How so if both are for defense?
“Was it not a noble thing to fight thus in behalf of the Son of God?”
Wasn't it a noble thing that when Jesus announced his coming death to proclaim “may it never be”…? In both cases he was found going against God's will.
Late for work got to run.
Sorry I just noticed I didn't address this to DavidHi David
Quote If the government were to tell you: You can't talk to others about the Bible, what would you do? I would tell whoever that they were enemies of the constitution and refuse to commit treason against the United States. OR against GOD
Quote Hi David
Quote
If the government were to tell you: You can't talk to others about the Bible, what would you do?I would tell whoever that they were enemies of the constitution and refuse to commit treason against the United States. OR against GOD
But what if the “whoever” is the United States government itself? In some times (such as times of war) the government doesn't seem to care too much about those laws, or freedom of religion. Years later things are often rectified. But at those moments, if your government were to actually ban you from speaking to others about God, what would you do? You may have noticed that in your country things got much more tense after nine, eleven. What if one day, your government decides that things would be more peaceful if all relgion was banned? There is a growing number of factions inside the U.N. that is growing less and less tolerant to religion, because of all the death and bloodshed that are often connected to it. Anyway, what would you do TJStarfire?
“The principal victims of religious persecution in the United States in the twentieth century were the Jehovah’s Witnesses,” says the book “The Court and the Constitution,” by Archibald Cox (1987)
- Luke 22:35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
