love among all

[shinobi]

What religion practices that they have love among themselves. Jesus said this would be an identifying principle for his true followers. But most religions fight wars and don’t practice unselfish love. Which faith teaches and practices this qaulitey that seperates followers from hypocrites

[Proclaimer]

The following is what the Law of God rests on.

Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: ” 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Next we have the first example of men fighting and maiming in the name of Jesus Christ.

John 18
7 Again he asked them, “Who is it you want?”
And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
8 “I told you that I am he,” Jesus answered. “If you are looking for me, then let these men go.”
9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”
10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)
11 Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”

John 18
36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

So Jesus clearly taught us that we should not fight for the Kingdom of God in the same way that the Kingdoms of this world fight for domination. Rather we are instructed to fight against evil in spiritual places, as this is where evil's power comes from.

Ephesians 6
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Our weapons are not carnal but spiritual. If we fight with the weapons of this world, then we are truly deluded.

2 Corinthians 10
4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

We are true disciples of Christ if we love. Those who murder and hate are not disciples of Christ.

1 John 3
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
20 If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Matthew 5
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Luke 6
27 “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Luke 6
35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

When we look back into history, we can see that many violent acts such as murder and and theft have been committed in the name of Jesus, but the truth is that these acts are not of God and therefore they are not really in Jesus Name.

Jude 1
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

A departing from truth was prophecied in scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Falling away
646 apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}
feminine of the same as 647; TDNT – 1:513,88; n f

AV – to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1; 2

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

We live an age of apostacy. Is it any wonder that godless men use the name of Jesus Christ to extend their ego-centric ideals.

However, we know that Light shines through darkness and darkness cannot block out light. Rather darkness is the lack of light.

John 1
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it [ 1:5 Or darkness, and the darkness has not overcome].

The Kingdom of God is the only Kingdom that will reign for eternity.

Daniel 2
44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

[childofthelight]

I would like to add that the wars fought in the name of religion were at a time when government and church were the about the same thing.  The church was an empire, and the governments were under the church–and they were out for conquest.  They fought wars in the name of God, but served the empire, not the Lord.

Hope I said that right

[thehappyman]

In 1 John 4:8,21 God is Love and I believe that this love is the key to life and in all and through all by Jesus, the Christ. The first commandment states it’s requirement. To love completely inwhich gives us boldness in the day of judgement. John 8 ,:42 speaks of complete love in faith believing Jesus as the Son of God . I know of no other book that speaks so fully of true Love. ……God Bless

[david]

I wonder what the people of this forum think of “Christians” who go to war and kill or even go to war and don't kill.

[seekingtruth]

From what I understand the commandment should have been translated “thou shalt do no murders” not “thou shalt not kill” (somebody who knows how to translate let me know if this is wrong).

For my part if called to war to defend my country I would go but as a medic, chaplin, or other position that would allow me to minister to others and show God's love (talk about a field ripe for harvest). We are told to obey our goverment and I believe that goverments are given a sword by God authorizing them to do things, that as individuals we cannot do.

Just my opinion in response to Davids question. I do believe that love will show us for what we are.

[david]

While it is true that God has allowed governments to rule for our benefit, when their laws conflict with God's, who do you obey?
Who was it that said: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”
The governments authority is relative, placed in their spot by God.
And while Jesus told them to bring swords before his arrest, it was to teach a lesson. They only had a few. 'It is enough,' Jesus said.
And when the sword was used, Jesus said something like: “Return your sword to it's place. For all who live by the sword will perish by the sword.” The lesson was clear.

Seeking Truth, while going to war as a Medic or chaplin is a noble thought and well meaning, does it not also show that you are participating in and supporting the war?

In another thread, I recently quoted this:
Roman Catholic Cardinal Amette of Paris told soldiers fighting in the French army: “The Almighty God is on our side. . . . God will give us the victory.”
On the opposite side, the Roman Catholic archbishop of Cologne told German soldiers: “God is with us in this fight . . . and he will give us the victory.”
(Quoted in the Belgian newspaper “La Dernière Heure.”)

Every kingdom divided agains itself will fall, says the Bible. God is not divided among himself.
If you are in one country and at war with other country where your brother lives and you and your brother both participate in that war, where is the love?
“By this all will know that you are my discples,” said Jesus, “if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:35)

If you believe God has any part in worldly wars, you are wrong. The wars fought by the Israelites definitely had God's backing which was often displayed miraculously and it was against an idolatrous bad nation. If you have God on your side, fight with glass jars.

It is not God's will that people kill each other. He is not behind the worldly governements. Rather, Satan is called “the ruler of this world.”

Here's an interesting question:
DID THE EARLY CHRISTIANS GO TO WAR?

And if they refused to, what would that tell us?

[david]

Quote

Here's an interesting question: DID THE EARLY CHRISTIANS GO TO WAR? And if they refused to, what would that tell us?

What do you think?

[seekingtruth]

I'm not sure it would prove anything, reading the corrections to early Christians from Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jesus (in Revelations), I don't see how they were much different then we are.

[seekingtruth]

I agree that the Kingdom of God is not fought in the natural but if I am to love others wouldn't I be doing so in defending the innocents against the likes of a Hitler?

I'm not talking aggression on my part I'm saying that if people are being slaughtered and your saying I should just stand idly by, isn't that like saying to someone who needs food “God bless you” but doing nothing to help? If I am to trust the Lord to defend those people then I should do the same for the hungry (that God will feed them).

I still contend that governments are given a sword by God to enforce the law and for protection. Government is something that will be in place thoughout the millinium.

[david]

So YOU want to solve the world's problems, fix all the injustices. What can you do? I thought it was God's kingdom we looked to for the solutions, not human governments.

Vengeance is MINE. I shall repay, says Jehovah.

ROMANS 12:17-20
“Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.””

On October 7, 1934, in the office of Dr. Wilhelm Frick, in Berlin, Adolf Hitler with clenched fists declared regarding Jehovah’s Witnesses:
“This brood will be exterminated in Germany!” About 7000 were sent to concentration camps.
Karl Wittig, a former German government officer who was himself detained in several concentration camps, later wrote: “No other group of prisoners . . . was exposed to the sadism of the SS-soldiery in such a fashion as the Bible Students were. It was a sadism marked by an unending chain of physical and mental tortures, the likes of which no language in the world can express.”
What was the result? In a book published in 1982, Christine King concludes: “Only against the Witnesses [in contrast to other religious groups] was the government unsuccessful.”
Hitler had vowed to exterminate them, and hundreds were killed. Nevertheless, Dr. King notes: “The work [of preaching about God’s Kingdom] went on and in May 1945 the Jehovah’s Witness movement was still alive, whilst National Socialism was not.”
She also points out: “No compromises had been made.” (The Nazi State and the New Religions: Five Case Studies in Non-Conformity)

There is the world which fights it's bloody wars. And there are Christians who are to be “no part of the world,” as Jesus said. Are Christians given the mission to defend the world?
If God says: 'Vengeance is mine,' who are we to try to take his place?

Quote

I'm not sure it would prove anything, reading the corrections to early Christians from Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jesus (in Revelations), I don't see how they were much different then we are.

I don't believe the early Christians went to war, or were literal soldiers. It seems this changed a couple hundred years after Christ (as so very many many other things did as well)

'The Rise of Christianity,' by E. W. Barnes, who reported: “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”

“The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces,” states an article in The Christian Century magazine. It explains that until the decade of 170-180 C.E., there is no evidence whatever that Christians served in the army. The article then adds: “Only gradually did Christians abandon their opposition to military service.”

'A History of Christianity,' Professor K. S. Latourette writes: “One of the issues on which the early Christians were at variance with the Græco-Roman world was participation in war. For the first three centuries no Christian writing which has survived to our time condoned Christian participation in war.”

Edward Gibbon’s work 'The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' states: “It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”

SO IF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS didn't go to war, And if Jesus and his followers fortold an apostasy, who should we look to as an example–The early Christians who refused to go to war, or our own hearts?

david

[seekingtruth]

David,
Many of your words are true regarding vengeance but I'm not talking vengeance I'm talking defence.

I agree we are not to be part of the world, but that speaks of our motivations and desires.

I agree that we love our enemy (the individuals) and care for their needs as it is in our power. But if my government takes a position to save innocents by confronting another government then I believe that is within God's will (not what He wants but until the return of Jesus to set up His kingdom what has to happen).

Now if the USA decided one day that they really liked NZ so they were going to invade it, then at that point we would be the aggressors and I could not take place or serve in any capacity because then I would then be violating God's higher Law.

BY your logic we should have no police, after all we are to forgive others and not resist evil.

Why did Paul say that governments are given a sword? There is a difference between individuals and governments.

[kenrch]

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 29 2006,20:00)

David, Many of your words are true regarding vengeance but I'm not talking vengeance I'm talking defence. I agree we are not to be part of the world, but that speaks of our motivations and desires. I agree that we love our enemy (the individuals) and care for their needs as it is in our power. But if my government takes a position to save innocents by confronting another government then I believe that is within God's will (not what He wants but until the return of Jesus to set up His kingdom what has to happen). Now if the USA decided one day that they really liked NZ so they were going to invade it, then at that point we would be the aggressors and I could not take place or serve in any capacity because then I would then be violating God's higher Law. BY your logic we should have no police, after all we are to forgive others and not resist evil. Why did Paul say that governments are given a sword? There is a difference between individuals and governments.

I like that seekingtruth. The USA certainly loves it's enemies after destroying Japan (our enemy) we rebuilt their country.

To me that's love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. Yes the USA defended itself then built up their country and turned the other cheek! Seems like this country is always turning the other cheek. Though in debt we are always forgiving other countries debt.

I admit I don't like what the USA are doing in Iraq. But I'll save my judgement.

[david]

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BY your logic we should have no police, after all we are to forgive others and not resist evil.

HI seeking truth,
the world will do what it will with or without Christians. Jesus said his true followers would be “no part of the world.” Whiile this system lasts, there will always be men leading other men to kill other men. But must YOU be that man, or supportive of it? As a Christian, I believe there are many Bible principles that would be violated.

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.
“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”—Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.
“They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.

“Origen [who lived in the second and third centuries of the Common Era] . . . remarks that ‘the Christian Church cannot engage in war against any nation. They have learned from their Leader that they are children of peace.’ In that period many Christians were martyred for refusing military service.”—Treasury of the Christian World Edited by A. Gordon Nasby, p 369

“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. The Christians . . . .felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.” (On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8)

Every reference I've seen says that the early Christians refused to “enter miliary service.” In fact, martryed for not taking up military service. The early Christians were truly “no part of the world,” or its ways. Yes, they paid their taxes, and followed the law of the land–expect when that conflicted with a higher set of laws–God's Word.

[Cubes]

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 27 2006,10:02)

From what I understand the commandment should have been translated “thou shalt do no murders” not “thou shalt not kill” (somebody who knows how to translate let me know if this is wrong). For my part if called to war to defend my country I would go but as a medic, chaplin, or other position that would allow me to minister to others and show God's love (talk about a field ripe for harvest).

ST: 

I agree.

DAVID:

I had been more of a pacifist, that is, until I saw a few Jewish Holocaust Documentaries, footages on the Rwanda Genocides and such…. and am not so sure anymore.  I am all for peace and have no problem caring for “an enemy”…  but at the same time if evil can be resisted or apprehended as to not result in further destruction of life or unnecessary suffering then do we not have a duty to do so, firstly through love?

Yes, Jesus is greater than David, but was there not a cause for Young David to resist Goliath and in the strength of YHWH, to take Goliath out and give Israel rest when it was possible to do so with a single stone? Did Jesus abolish that through his own life by not resisting the Romans?  Did he not say his kingdom was not of this world?

Jesus resisted arrest and harm until the appointed time had arrived; secondly he also said that he came to do the Father's will, not his own.  For this reason, if we are suffering due to the will of God, then we should hope to endure it (and all suffering) faithfully. But are all sufferings by the will of God and so to be embraced, particularly when it involves others who are more vulnerable?

I am not advocating unforgiveness such as an eye for an eye, taking vengeance into our hands and so hating our enemies. But I do believe that there are a couple of ways to stand against evil:  righteous living by the people of God in any nation, prayer, love, and if necessary resistance and defense against evil (War).  The only thing though is that those who live by the sword tend to also die by the sword and so it should not be entered into lightly by those who count life as precious.

[david]

Quote

DAVID: I had been more of a pacifist, that is, until I saw a few Jewish Holocaust Documentaries

I am not a pacifist, as I look to God's war of armageddon to end wickedness. I have been to see the Holocaust Museum in New York. There was once a whole section in there on Jehovah's Witnesses. We were the only ones who could have left the concentration camps, simply by renouncing our faith. The Holocaust Museum brings a deafening silence to all who enter. There are no words. The things that are done in war can only be described as Satanic.

Quote

if necessary resistance and defense against evil (War). The only thing though is that those who live by the sword tend to also die by the sword

And so, because of that, “return your sword to it's place.” (Mt 26:52)

Quote

footages on the Rwanda Genocides

Lack of neighbor love is often tragic. In Rwanda hundreds of thousands of people were slaughtered, often by their own neighbors. “Hutu and Tutsi [lived] together, intermarrying, not caring or not even knowing who was a Hutu and who a Tutsi,” reported The New York Times. “Then something snapped,” and “the killings began.”
Which side would you have been on Cubes? If you were a Hutu, would you be killing the Tutsi, your brother? Or if a Tutsi, would you be killing the Hutu?
There were Jehovah's Witnesses who were Hutu's and Tutsi's. None of them killed each other. They were brothers. Why kill your brother?

Quote

but was there not a cause for Young David to resist Goliath and in the strength of YHWH, to take Goliath out and give Israel rest when it was possible to do so with a single stone?

I tell you what Cubes. If an army today goes to war and uses stones and wins against a Goliath of an army, I will believe God is on their side. Until that moment, rest assured, Satan is the “ruler of the world.” I know this. I have seen it at the Holocaust museum.

[seekingtruth]

David,
I've noticed from reading your other posts and during our discussions you tend to overstate, mis-quote, redirect, and quote as “the final authority” sources which agree with you. These are very effective tools to use so as to prevail in a discussion but these methods concern me.

Your obviously a very intelligent person who has a heart for God. I know a few JW's and in many things they put most to shame with their care for the bretheren and their zeal. But I have also found most to be closed minded to all but the JW's offical line. I have read your argument that since it is all true why shouldn't someone take the party line on everything, I fear that while there is much truth, the adherents rely more on church doctrine then in seeking the Lord.

This was difficult for me to write, my preference is to just to state my opinions. I appoligize if I have offended you it was not my intent. Of course this means one of us is wrong, may the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth.

May the Lord bless you

[malcolm ferris]

this is a good subject

[david]

Quote

I've noticed from reading your other posts and during our discussions you tend to overstate, mis-quote, redirect, and quote as “the final authority” sources which agree with you. These are very effective tools

Hi Seeking Truth. Nothing you send offends me. I would prefer the second I say something that you disagree with for you to tell me so, however. I prefer to be shown where I am wrong, than to simply be painted wrong without anything to back it up. Where did I overstate, misquote or redirect, for example. Here are some of the sources I quoted in the “Christians who Kill” thread, which is presently the exact same discussion as this one:

Quote

EARLY CHRISTIANS AND WAR Those Known as Early Christians. Early Christians refused to serve in the Roman army, in both the legions and auxilia, considering such service as wholly incompatible with the teachings of Christianity. Says Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (CX): “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 254) In his treatise “The Chaplet, or De Corona” (XI), when discussing “whether warfare is proper at all for Christians,” Tertullian (c. 200 C.E.) argued from Scripture the unlawfulness even of a military life itself, concluding, “I banish from us the military life.”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1957, Vol. III, pp. 99, 100. “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333) “It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.” (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276) “In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity.” (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382) “The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.” (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125) “The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers.” (The New World’s Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131) “The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.” (“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246) “While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416. British historian C. J. Cadoux summarized the uncompromising position of the early Christians very well in his book, The Early Christian Attitude on War, on pages 245 and 246: “The early Christians took Jesus at his word, and understood his inculcations of gentleness and non-resistance in their literal sense. They closely identified their religion with peace; they strongly condemned war for the bloodshed which it involved; they appropriated to themselves the Old Testament prophecy which foretold the transformation of the weapons of war into the implements of agriculture [Isa. 2:4] . . . With one or two possible exceptions no soldier joined the Church and remained a soldier until the time of Marcus Aurelius (161-180 A.D.). Even then, refusal to serve was known to be the normal policy of the Christians—as the reproaches of Celsus (177-180 A.D.) testify. . . . The application of Jesus’ teaching to the question of military service was in a way unmistakable.” A History of Christianity, Professor K. S. Latourette writes: “One of the issues on which the early Christians were at variance with the Græco-Roman world was participation in war. For the first three centuries no Christian writing which has survived to our time condoned Christian participation in war.” The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, who reported: “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.” “The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces,” states an article in The Christian Century magazine. It explains that until the decade of 170-180 C.E., there is no evidence whatever that Christians served in the army. The article then adds: “Only gradually did Christians abandon their opposition to military service.” “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333. “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”—Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254. “They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163. “Origen [who lived in the second and third centuries of the Common Era] . . . remarks that ‘the Christian Church cannot engage in war against any nation. They have learned from their Leader that they are children of peace.’ In that period many Christians were martyred for refusing military service.”—Treasury of the Christian World Edited by A. Gordon Nasby, p 369 (Because Christ’s disciples refused to serve in the emperor’s legions, the Romans put many of them to death.) “Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. The Christians . . . .felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.” (On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8) Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Stor y of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.” “The behavior of the [early] Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.”—Our World Through the Ages. “The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces,” states an article in The Christian Century magazine. It explains that until the decade of 170-180 C.E., there is no evidence whatever that Christians served in the army. The article then adds: “Only gradually did Christians abandon their opposition to military service.” “Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office.”—On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia, 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238. Church historian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?” “The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168. Christianity Today quotes church historian Roland Bainton: “From the end of the New Testament period to the decade 170-180 there is no evidence whatever of Christians in the army.”

If these are misquotes and the early Christians did go to war, I would like to be shown why you believe so, rather than simply saying I “misquote.”

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But I have also found most to be closed minded to all but the JW's offical line.

The god of this system of things has “blinded the minds of the unbelievers,” and has “mislead the ENTIRE inhabited earth.” (1 Cor 4:4; Rev 12:9??) It doesn't suprise me that many say: 'killing for the human Government is God's will.'
Satan IS THE “ruler of the world.” We are told that the “whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”

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Now if the USA decided one day that they really liked NZ so they were going to invade it, then at that point we would be the aggressors and I could not take place or serve in any capacity

So it is you who decides if it is a just war? War is a messy complicated political worldly thing. 'He did this to me, so I'm going to get him. He has something I want, so I'm going to get him.'
Nick apparently believes we should obey the government and go to war, if that's what the governement wants. You, however, are more selective in which wars you will fight, correct?

ST, I do actually understand what you are saying. 'It's ok to defend yourself.'
And you have taken that idea to mean that it's ok to go to war and defend your homeland or countrymen, by taking up arms and enlisting in the army.
I believe defending yourself personally if someone on the street attacks you is far different from deciding to pick up a gun and engage in your countries war.

Malcolm, said:

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this is a good subject

It is an interesting one. WHat do you believe Jesus and the Bible indicate Malcolm?

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
You assume far too much about what I believe.

You have built up a moral tower from which you pontificate and judge people of the world in their day to day lives. You are entitled to your opinions, no matter how strong and independant of scriptural support they may be, but it is a waste of time judging those of the world.

In doing so you show that you too are still of the world despite your protestations to the contrary.

[Author]

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