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Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) That is basically what all revealed monotheistic religions are: an inadequate means of trying to describe a practically unknowable God.
They know plenty about what 'he' wants everyone to do, but not enough to give straight answers to straight questions.Quite politically convenient.
Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,05:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2008,11:19) Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 11 2008,14:28) Even the atheist has to have faith that there is no God, for he or she can surely never prove that no such being exists.
You are a simply of parroting the words of others without actually looking into this statement. Does it take faith for you to not believe in Zeus? How about Allah? Ra? Brahman?No, more than likely, you don't even consider these other gods. They mean nothing to you. Now, go one step further and you have the typical atheist. He/she just believes in one less god than you.
I am still a theist — that is, I believe in a Creator God — but I simply no longer believe that Yahweh is an accurate representation. It takes no faith on my part to disbelieve in Yahweh.
That is basically what all revealed monotheistic religions are: an inadequate means of trying to describe a practically unknowable God.
Hi KevinBoy, You sure have gone a long way from your baptist days.
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) You are a simply of parroting the words of others without actually looking into this statement. Does it take faith for you to not believe in Zeus? How about Allah? Ra? Brahman? Yes “I believe” that zeus, allah, ra, brahman were not gods at all. It does take faith to believe that because I cannot prove that they didnt exist.
Blessings. Hope you and yours is well.
WJ
Are you being honest WJ? Because I never needed any faith to disbelieve those other gods because I was told from a young age that they were nothing but myths.Sure I am honest. I “believe” or have “faith” that they are myths, even though I cannot prove it! Dont you?
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,05:27)
And yes, I certainly have come far from my baptist days. The “progression” came from basically the bible itself. First, bible study showed me the trinity theology was flawed. Then, bible study showed me pre-existence was flawed. Bible study then further showed me that Jesus as the promised Jewish messiah was flawed. Finally, noting the brutality — what you like to call “justice” — of the OT god, Yawheh, I saw the that the bible description of God was flawed.With all of this added together, it was actually rather refreshing to find that there was another faith that didn't make God into another human being. The bible says we are made in God's image but the truth is that God in the bible is made in the image of man, with the same set of failings and emotions.
It is we who are flawed Kevin, and not the Lord God and his inspired writings!
Remember we are but human, he is far beyond our puny little finite minds.
Who are we to question this being in whom we have not even begin to understand?
All you have to do is remember the little girl that God lets someone rape and murder every day and doesnt do anything.
Then you will see that the God you believe in is no different than the God of the OT.
His ways are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth.
That is infinitly higher.
Of course it takes faith to believe this also!
Blessings! WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2008,00:46) Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,05:27)
Are you being honest WJ? Because I never needed any faith to disbelieve those other gods because I was told from a young age that they were nothing but myths.Sure I am honest. I “believe” or have “faith” that they are myths, even though I cannot prove it! Dont you?
No more than I can disprove invisible pink unicorns, leprechauns, or the flying spaghetti monster. But I need no faith to not believe in them. Perhaps you do.
Quote It is we who are flawed Kevin, and not the Lord God and his inspired writings! Remember we are but human, he is far beyond our puny little finite minds.
Who are we to question this being in whom we have not even begin to understand?
I know where you come from WJ. Your blind faith would have you not question the bible, but instead place the fault of misunderstanding back on us. It is a Christian thing to degrade humanity.
Quote All you have to do is remember the little girl that God lets someone rape and murder every day and doesnt do anything. What does that have to do with the actual existence of Yahweh? Raping and killing of children went on in the bible, why should anything change?
Quote Then you will see that the God you believe in is no different than the God of the OT. Really? I don't believe in a God who does divine favors based on His will.
Quote His ways are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth. That is infinitly higher.
Of course it takes faith to believe this also!
Blessings! WJ
The ways of the god of the bible are not higher than our ways because they are strangely human. Jealousy, rage, bigotry, sexism, homophobia, etc. are all human emotions.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2008,00:46) Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,05:27)
Are you being honest WJ? Because I never needed any faith to disbelieve those other gods because I was told from a young age that they were nothing but myths.Sure I am honest. I “believe” or have “faith” that they are myths, even though I cannot prove it! Don’t you?
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
No more than I can disprove invisible pink unicorns, leprechauns, or the flying spaghetti monster. But I need no faith to not believe in them. Perhaps you do.
Ah, so you do “believe” that pink unicorns, leprechauns, or the flying spaghetti monster are myths?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2008,17:46) It is we who are flawed Kevin, and not the Lord God and his inspired writings! Remember we are but human, he is far beyond our puny little finite minds.
Who are we to question this being in whom we have not even begin to understand?
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
I know where you come from WJ. Your blind faith would have you not question the bible, but instead place the fault of misunderstanding back on us. It is a Christian thing to degrade humanity.What are you blaming Christians for? Blame your creator; after all he is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving, he knew what men would become when he made them. As far as the Bible is concerned, yes I do have some blind faith, but don’t think for a moment that my faith is not in the living God who speaks to me and encourages me everyday. You should give scriptures more credit than you do Kevin. Can you think of anything that you know about your God that is not found in the scriptures?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2008,17:46) All you have to do is remember the little girl that God lets someone rape and murder every day and doesnt do anything. Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
What does that have to do with the actual existence of Yahweh? Raping and killing of children went on in the bible, why should anything change?But I thought that Christians were the ones degrading humanity?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2008,17:46) Then you will see that the God you believe in is no different than the God of the OT. Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
Really? I don't believe in a God who does divine favors based on His will.Divine favors? Kevin it is so simple that the little girl being raped can understand. “God why don’t you do me a favor and intervene, please God?” You do believe your God created all things and has all-power and is all-knowing and is “ALL-LOVING’, don’t you?
Then why does he sit up there in the heavens and does nothing? It seems that you also have some blind faith.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2008,17:46) His ways are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth. That is infinitely higher.
Of course it takes faith to believe this also!
Blessings! WJ
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
The ways of the god of the bible are not higher than our ways because they are strangely human. Jealousy, rage, bigotry, sexism, homophobia, etc. are all human emotions.
Again, who is degrading humanity now?Kevin, I do like you, but you are the one who is not being honest now. How is it that you think that your “deist” theology is better than the Judeo Christian theology? You cannot answer the hard questions no more than the rest of us. Either you have some “blind faith” or you would be better off being an Atheist. IMO.
Blessings WJ
Just remember according to the word, the bible, who ever is ruling the throne before the end, is out right the e-ledged pane in the glass, that rides as a flood, and is the anti social imposter of perverted goods, having an inhuman Nature, toward the mercy of any sort of merciful god, offering some sort of illegel salvation, worked for, yet to all men, whom God has to also reclaim his name from such a pig headed legalistic ruler?..amen
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2008,17:18) Ah, so you do “believe” that pink unicorns, leprechauns, or the flying spaghetti monster are myths?
Do you understand the difference between belief and faith?Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2008,00:18) Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
No more than I can disprove invisible pink unicorns, leprechauns, or the flying spaghetti monster. But I need no faith to not believe in them. Perhaps you do.
Ah, so you do “believe” that pink unicorns, leprechauns, or the flying spaghetti monster are myths?See Stu's response. Belief and faith are related, but are not the same. So to disbelieve has nothing to do with faith.
Quote Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
I know where you come from WJ. Your blind faith would have you not question the bible, but instead place the fault of misunderstanding back on us. It is a Christian thing to degrade humanity.What are you blaming Christians for? Blame your creator; after all he is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving, he knew what men would become when he made them.
That is your view, not mine. I do not believe in a God who is all knowing. To be all knowing would remove free will.
Nor do I believe in a God who personally made men. I believe in a God who set the laws of the universe in motion. I do not believe he personally crafted what we see and experience.
Quote As far as the Bible is concerned, yes I do have some blind faith, but don’t think for a moment that my faith is not in the living God who speaks to me and encourages me everyday. You should give scriptures more credit than you do Kevin. Can you think of anything that you know about your God that is not found in the scriptures? Tons! For one, I don't believe in a God who gives certain rules to live by. If so, we need to still live by them! But they are no longer applicable in a modern society!
Also, I don't believe in a God who carries out His wrath on people like Yahweh so often was said to have done. Wrath is a human failing.
Quote Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
What does that have to do with the actual existence of Yahweh? Raping and killing of children went on in the bible, why should anything change?But I thought that Christians were the ones degrading humanity?
You degrade humanity by saying that the words of the bible — written by humans — are actually the words of a perfect, loving God. And then you say we should not question these words — written by humans — because “His ways are higher than our ways”.
And the bible is full of the slaughtering of children in the name of Yawheh.
Quote Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
Really? I don't believe in a God who does divine favors based on His will.Divine favors? Kevin it is so simple that the little girl being raped can understand. “God why don’t you do me a favor and intervene, please God?” You do believe your God created all things and has all-power and is all-knowing and is “ALL-LOVING’, don’t you?
Then why does he sit up there in the heavens and does nothing? It seems that you also have some blind faith.
Why do you so often use this scenario of a little girl being raped? It would seem that when you claim Yahweh intervenes in some cases but does not in others is a failing of his. I believe in a God who does not intervene at all. No divine favors, no divine retribution.Quote Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
The ways of the god of the bible are not higher than our ways because they are strangely human. Jealousy, rage, bigotry, sexism, homophobia, etc. are all human emotions.
Again, who is degrading humanity now?Are humans not sexist, homophobic, etc? Is the bible god not also full of these same human characteristics?
Quote Kevin, I do like you, but you are the one who is not being honest now. How is it that you think that your “deist” theology is better than the Judeo Christian theology? You cannot answer the hard questions no more than the rest of us. Either you have some “blind faith” or you would be better off being an Atheist. IMO. Blessings WJ
I do not have a “deist” faith. I am presently studying the Gathas of Zarathushtra.And what hard questions would you like to ask? I assure you they won't be strained through a biblical filter.
WJ wrote:
Quote Divine favors? Kevin it is so simple that the little girl being raped can understand. “God why don’t you do me a favor and intervene, please God?” You do believe your God created all things and has all-power and is all-knowing and is “ALL-LOVING’, don’t you?
Then why does he sit up there in the heavens and does nothing? It seems that you also have some blind faith.You keep obsessively, (and disturbingly), using this rape scenario to prove that any belief in any god requires some “blind faith” that that god will administer justice at some point. However, you fail to keep in mind the kind of justice that mainstream Christianity promotes.
Consider this:
If the rapist in your scenario becomes a Christian before he dies, he goes straight to heaven – no questions asked. But, in the meantime, if the girl he raped shuns God her whole life, precisely because of her rape experience, she goes straight to hell, though she does get to try to explain her sinful behavior to God before being sentenced.
In other words, (according to mainstream Christian theology), God only saves those who believe the right things about him and worship him. Everyone else is disposable garbage. Quite aside from any justice that any other god might be responsible for administering in the rape scenario, the Christian God's form of justice here is rightfully seen as reprehensible. So, I see this scenario as a more difficult one for a Christian to reconcile than for anyone else. While others may have to answer the question, “Why would God let this happen?”, Christians must answer the question, “How could God condemn this rape victim to further torment, for eternity?”
(To be fair, I know that you have professed a belief in “universal salvation”, but given that the vast majority of Christians disagree with you and scripture seems to contradict you – e.g. Rev 11:18 – most Christians and non-Christians would view that defense as baseless.)
Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2008,00:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2008,00:18) Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
No more than I can disprove invisible pink unicorns, leprechauns, or the flying spaghetti monster. But I need no faith to not believe in them. Perhaps you do.
Ah, so you do “believe” that pink unicorns, leprechauns, or the flying spaghetti monster are myths?See Stu's response. Belief and faith are related, but are not the same. So to disbelieve has nothing to do with faith.
Quote Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
I know where you come from WJ. Your blind faith would have you not question the bible, but instead place the fault of misunderstanding back on us. It is a Christian thing to degrade humanity.What are you blaming Christians for? Blame your creator; after all he is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving, he knew what men would become when he made them.
That is your view, not mine. I do not believe in a God who is all knowing. To be all knowing would remove free will.
Nor do I believe in a God who personally made men. I believe in a God who set the laws of the universe in motion. I do not believe he personally crafted what we see and experience.
Quote As far as the Bible is concerned, yes I do have some blind faith, but don’t think for a moment that my faith is not in the living God who speaks to me and encourages me everyday. You should give scriptures more credit than you do Kevin. Can you think of anything that you know about your God that is not found in the scriptures? Tons! For one, I don't believe in a God who gives certain rules to live by. If so, we need to still live by them! But they are no longer applicable in a modern society!
Also, I don't believe in a God who carries out His wrath on people like Yahweh so often was said to have done. Wrath is a human failing.
Quote Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
What does that have to do with the actual existence of Yahweh? Raping and killing of children went on in the bible, why should anything change?But I thought that Christians were the ones degrading humanity?
You degrade humanity by saying that the words of the bible — written by humans — are actually the words of a perfect, loving God. And then you say we should not question these words — written by humans — because “His ways are higher than our ways”.
And the bible is full of the slaughtering of children in the name of Yawheh.
Quote Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
Really? I don't believe in a God who does divine favors based on His will.Divine favors? Kevin it is so simple that the little girl being raped can understand. “God why don’t you do me a favor and intervene, please God?” You do believe your God created all things and has all-power and is all-knowing and is “ALL-LOVING’, don’t you?
Then why does he sit up there in the heavens and does nothing? It seems that you also have some blind faith. Why do you so often use this scenario of a little girl being raped? It would seem that when you claim Yahweh intervenes in some cases but does not in others is a failing of his. I believe in a God who does not intervene at all. No divine favors, no divine retribution.Quote Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,23:06)
The ways of the god of the bible are not higher than our ways because they are strangely human. Jealousy, rage, bigotry, sexism, homophobia, etc. are all human emotions.
Again, who is degrading humanity now?Are humans not sexist, homophobic, etc? Is the bible god not also full of these same human characteristics?
Quote Kevin, I do like you, but you are the one who is not being honest now. How is it that you think that your “deist” theology is better than the Judeo Christian theology? You cannot answer the hard questions no more than the rest of us. Either you have some “blind faith” or you would be better off being an Atheist. IMO. Blessings WJ
I do not have a “deist” faith. I am presently studying the Gathas of Zarathushtra.And what hard questions would you like to ask? I assure you they won't be strained through a biblical filter.
Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2008,00:10)
That is your view, not mine. I do not believe in a God who is all knowing. To be all knowing would remove free will.Nor do I believe in a God who personally made men. I believe in a God who set the laws of the universe in motion. I do not believe he personally crafted what we see and experience.
Wow! You have gone farther away from the truth than I realized.
There is no basis for dialoge anymore, at least not in what I care to discuss. Anyway, I wish you the best.
WJ
Hi WIT
WJ wrote:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2008,00:46) Divine favors? Kevin it is so simple that the little girl being raped can understand. “God why don’t you do me a favor and intervene, please God?” You do believe your God created all things and has all-power and is all-knowing and is “ALL-LOVING’, don’t you?
Then why does he sit up there in the heavens and does nothing? It seems that you also have some blind faith.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 15 2008,03:19)
You keep obsessively, (and disturbingly), using this rape scenario to prove that any belief in any god requires some “blind faith” that that god will administer justice at some point. However, you fail to keep in mind the kind of justice that mainstream Christianity promotes.Yes I agree it is disturbing. But your post is also failing to answer the question.
How can an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God sit in the heavens and allow these things to happen?
To believe this takes “blind faith”, like it or not.
What does mainstream Christianity have to do with these questions? They have no answers either.
I believe simply that God’s ways are higher than ours as far as the heavens are higher than the earth. We only know in part. It’s that simple.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 15 2008,03:19)
Consider this:If the rapist in your scenario becomes a Christian before he dies, he goes straight to heaven – no questions asked. But, in the meantime, if the girl he raped shuns God her whole life, precisely because of her rape experience, she goes straight to hell, though she does get to try to explain her sinful behavior to God before being sentenced.
In other words, (according to mainstream Christian theology), God only saves those who believe the right things about him and worship him. Everyone else is disposable garbage. Quite aside from any justice that any other god might be responsible for administering in the rape scenario, the Christian God's form of justice here is rightfully seen as reprehensible.
I do not believe in election either. So I sure do not believe that he will cast little girls into eternal torment.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 15 2008,03:19)
So, I see this scenario as a more difficult one for a Christian to reconcile than for anyone else. While others may have to answer the question, “Why would God let this happen?”, Christians must answer the question, “How could God condemn this rape victim to further torment, for eternity?”Not all Christians believe that God will condemn a rape victim to eternal torment. Either way both still have to answer the question, “Why would an all-loving God allow these evils”? So any believer in God regardless of their doctrinal stand has to have some blind faith or they are better off to be an Atheist.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 15 2008,03:19)
(To be fair, I know that you have professed a belief in “universal salvation”, but given that the vast majority of Christians disagree with you and scripture seems to contradict you – e.g. Rev 11:18 – most Christians and non-Christians would view that defense as baseless.)Baseless? If it is baseless then why are you disturbed? Why can you not answer the question? So what are you saying? That because I do not line up with the vast majority of Christians that I am wrong!
The vast majority of Christians believe in the Trinity, so is this how you judge truth or error?
Please explain how Rev 1:18 contradicts me?
I am a little puzzled here! Kevin is one who totally attacks the Christian faith and the scriptures and you would rather challenge my statements!
Why don’t you challenge his belief rather than mine?
Whose side are you on anyway?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2008,10:27) Wow! You have gone farther away from the truth than I realized. There is no basis for dialoge anymore, at least not in what I care to discuss. Anyway, I wish you the best.
WJ
Thanks.But what is “truth” WJ? If its in the bible, its automatically “truth”? I guess you have “faith” that it is so. Yet that does not make it “true”, it just means that is what you accept as “truth”.
I could no longer stomach the “truth” of the bible. If you ventured out in the world, you'd find that the overwhelming majority of atheists are former Christians. While some had bad experiences with other Christians, many turned away because of the bible itself. These people could not justify worshiping a god that they see as a ruthless monster.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 14 2008,11:24) I am a little puzzled here! Kevin is one who totally attacks the Christian faith and the scriptures and you would rather challenge my statements!
The reason I seemingly “attack” Christian faith is that Christian faith goes out of its way to attack the beliefs of all others on the earth by saying the Christian way is the only way, and everyone else will be doomed to a lake of fire.Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) I am still a theist — that is, I believe in a Creator God — but I simply no longer believe that Yahweh is an accurate representation. It takes no faith on my part to disbelieve in Yahweh. Nor do I believe in a God who personally made men. I believe in a God who set the laws of the universe in motion. I do not believe he personally crafted what we see and experience.
Kevin,The two quotes from you seem to contradict. Do you believe God is the Creator of all or did the universe just begin to order itself?
Thanks,
MandyWJ wrote:
Quote Yes I agree it is disturbing. But your post is also failing to answer the question. How can an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God sit in the heavens and allow these things to happen?
To believe this takes “blind faith”, like it or not.
It wasn't the point of my post to answer this question. This is a question for any who believes in God, whether Muslim, Hindu, Christian or otherwise. It's a hard question for which faith of some sort is indeed required.
WJ wrote:
Quote What does mainstream Christianity have to do with these questions? They have no answers either. I always try to distinguish between mainstream Christianity and all other adherents of a Christian-like faith, because anyone of the splinter groups can have a vastly different answer than a typical Christian would give for any particular question. In this case though, I should have been more precise by referencing those who believe in eternal punishment for sinners.
WJ wrote:
Quote I believe simply that God’s ways are higher than ours as far as the heavens are higher than the earth. We only know in part. It’s that simple. Yes, but … .
WJ wrote:
Quote I do not believe in election either. So I sure do not believe that he will cast little girls into eternal torment. In my scenario, it is not a little girl being thrown into hell, but a grown woman who rejected God because of her Christian rapist. This, to me, goes to the very heart of justice.
WJ wrote:
Quote Not all Christians believe that God will condemn a rape victim to eternal torment. Either way both still have to answer the question, “Why would an all-loving God allow these evils”? So any believer in God regardless of their doctrinal stand has to have some blind faith or they are better off to be an Atheist. See above. This was not the point of my post.
WJ wrote:
Quote Baseless? If it is baseless then why are you disturbed? Why can you not answer the question? So what are you saying? That because I do not line up with the vast majority of Christians that I am wrong! The vast majority of Christians believe in the Trinity, so is this how you judge truth or error?
I think you misunderstood me. I meant that claiming universal salvation to resolve the potential injustice of a rape victim going to hell would be baseless, because … .
WJ wrote:
Quote Please explain how Rev 1:18 contradicts me? Revelations 11:18
“The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”Revelation 20:10,15:
“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. … And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”WJ wrote:
Quote I am a little puzzled here! Kevin is one who totally attacks the Christian faith and the scriptures and you would rather challenge my statements! Why don’t you challenge his belief rather than mine?
Whose side are you on anyway?
I am on nobody's side here. When I see a flaw in someone's argument, I try to probe deeper to see if it is really so. This is actually an opportunity for you to demonstrate the soundness of your faith. I am sure that there are many lurkers who would love for you to present the “case for Christ” here.
But just so that you don't feel like I am picking on you, or picking sides, I'll go ahead post the (less interesting) questions I have for kejonn.
kejonn,
Along the same lines as Mandy's question:
Do you believe that God is consciously aware of our little planet and the individual creatures on it?
If not, is it not true that the best guidance this god left us is the law of nature, which is to do whatever is best for one's own survival?
Additionally, on what grounds should we do good deeds or think good thoughts other than pure self interest?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 15 2008,05:55) WJ wrote: Quote Yes I agree it is disturbing. But your post is also failing to answer the question. How can an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God sit in the heavens and allow these things to happen?
To believe this takes “blind faith”, like it or not.
It wasn't the point of my post to answer this question. This is a question for any who believes in God, whether Muslim, Hindu, Christian or otherwise. It's a hard question for which faith of some sort is indeed required.
WJ wrote:
Quote What does mainstream Christianity have to do with these questions? They have no answers either. I always try to distinguish between mainstream Christianity and all other adherents of a Christian-like faith, because anyone of the splinter groups can have a vastly different answer than a typical Christian would give for any particular question. In this case though, I should have been more precise by referencing those who believe in eternal punishment for sinners.
WJ wrote:
Quote I believe simply that God’s ways are higher than ours as far as the heavens are higher than the earth. We only know in part. It’s that simple. Yes, but … .
WJ wrote:
Quote I do not believe in election either. So I sure do not believe that he will cast little girls into eternal torment. In my scenario, it is not a little girl being thrown into hell, but a grown woman who rejected God because of her Christian rapist. This, to me, goes to the very heart of justice.
WJ wrote:
Quote Not all Christians believe that God will condemn a rape victim to eternal torment. Either way both still have to answer the question, “Why would an all-loving God allow these evils”? So any believer in God regardless of their doctrinal stand has to have some blind faith or they are better off to be an Atheist. See above. This was not the point of my post.
WJ wrote:
Quote Baseless? If it is baseless then why are you disturbed? Why can you not answer the question? So what are you saying? That because I do not line up with the vast majority of Christians that I am wrong! The vast majority of Christians believe in the Trinity, so is this how you judge truth or error?
I think you misunderstood me. I meant that claiming universal salvation to resolve the potential injustice of a rape victim going to hell would be baseless, because … .
WJ wrote:
Quote Please explain how Rev 1:18 contradicts me? Revelations 11:18
“The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”Revelation 20:10,15:
“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. … And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”WJ wrote:
Quote I am a little puzzled here! Kevin is one who totally attacks the Christian faith and the scriptures and you would rather challenge my statements! Why don’t you challenge his belief rather than mine?
Whose side are you on anyway?
I am on nobody's side here. When I see a flaw in someone's argument, I try to probe deeper to see if it is really so. This is actually an opportunity for you to demonstrate the soundness of your faith. I am sure that there are many lurkers who would love for you to present the “case for Christ” here.
But just so that you don't feel like I am picking on you, or picking sides, I'll go ahead post the (less interesting) questions I have for kejonn.
WITOK! Then I have missunderstood you. But just so I do not make the same mistake again….
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 15 2008,05:55)
Revelations 11:18
“The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”Revelation 20:10,15:
“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. … And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”It depends on how you translate the Greek word “aiōn” which is also in many places of the scriptures interpreted as “world”, or “age”.
The Greek word means;
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
YLT renders Rev 10:10…
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.
And since this verse does not include those whose names are written in the Lambs book of life that will be tormented forever and ever but in fact says in vrs 14,15…
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So I do not build such a doctrine based on a couple ambiguous scriptures especially when there are scriptures that would contradict the eternal torment of some b
ut in fact shows that YHWH is more than able to reconcile 100% of that which is lost.So do you believe in eternal torment? If so why would the rape situation be disturbing?
Now it is your turn to demonstrate the soundness of your faith and show me where my argument has a flaw!
WJ
Quote (Not3in1 @ July 14 2008,12:37) Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) I am still a theist — that is, I believe in a Creator God — but I simply no longer believe that Yahweh is an accurate representation. It takes no faith on my part to disbelieve in Yahweh. Nor do I believe in a God who personally made men. I believe in a God who set the laws of the universe in motion. I do not believe he personally crafted what we see and experience.
Kevin,The two quotes from you seem to contradict. Do you believe God is the Creator of all or did the universe just begin to order itself?
Thanks,
Mandy
What I might believe and what is true cannot be reconciled. Nor can any other's beliefs about the origin of our universe. While there are many wonders of creation, much of it is also flawed to say it is the direct result of a perfect creator. For instance, think about the human body: why do we have an appendix? Why do men have testicles hanging away from the body where they are much more easy to harm? Why do armpits smell so bad (or other body parts)? Why do we need rest or food? Just a few examples.Thus, the best I can believe is that a Creator supplied the laws by which the universe operates. The rest came about as the result of such laws. Once we discover these laws and prove them true, there is little denying their validity.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 14 2008,13:02) kejonn, Along the same lines as Mandy's question:
Do you believe that God is consciously aware of our little planet and the individual creatures on it?
Yes, I do. I believe He has been observing the progress of the universe from the start, and that includes humanity. We may not be alone in the universe, but as it stands, we have the highest level of consciousness of any creature on earth, and therefore we may have the ability to commune in some fashion in with God.
Quote If not, is it not true that the best guidance this god left us is the law of nature, which is to do whatever is best for one's own survival? Not necessarily. That is the instinctual response of lesser animals. We have a higher consciousness. That does not mean that most do not regress to “survival” but that can also mean we have the ability to also look out for the survival of others, even at our own expense.
Quote Additionally, on what grounds should we do good deeds or think good thoughts other than pure self interest?
Because such actions move the world closer to ideal. Imagine the day when humans no longer care about another's sex, color, lifestyle, etc.? As we seek good thoughts, words, and deeds, we also influence (hopefully) others around us to do likewise. This is called “progressing” and it is something that can be passed to further generations.That is one form of “eternal life” IMHO. It may not be that we have a conscious afterlife, but our influence — although it may not be credited to us — can be passed on. But that influence can be positive or negative.
To seek good is not out of self interest. Though some self interest is unavoidable, good thoughts, words, and deeds benefit all.
WJ,
It looks like we have come back full circle on a previous discussion we had. If you believe that all will eventually be saved then the question I asked is invalid.
(On the other hand, your belief does beg the question: Will the Christian rapist be punished more lightly than his athiest victim – or perhaps not at all! – in the afterlife? If so, isn't that still a peversion of justice to some degree?)
Rather than argue in circles, I will leave it as a question to those who do believe in eternal punishment for sinners. I can't think of anything that could possibly make justice compatible with such a belief.
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