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Here's how it works: someone believes Jesus is God. Then, one finds that the bible is not good enough, but the basis of the story of Jesus being God is. Thus, the belief of God becoming man — since man wants God to be man — is still held onto.
Sorry, but God is God and cannot be man. Try again with something a bit more acceptable.
Quote (Colter @ May 07 2008,05:54) Quote (kejonn @ May 07 2008,15:00) Here's how it works: someone believes Jesus is God. Then, one finds that the bible is not good enough, but the basis of the story of Jesus being God is. Thus, the belief of God becoming man — since man wants God to be man — is still held onto. Sorry, but God is God and cannot be man. Try again with something a bit more acceptable.
Kejohn,The bible is a collection of writings, cherry picked by people who wanted a consistent story. Recognizing that the story is inconsistent doesn't relegate the true things within it, untrue.
I believe that Jesus is the divine son of God, your welcome to believe or not believe whatever you want.
Colter
I agree about the bible. This is what I see in the Jewish faith and then in the Romanized Christian faith. Then, the Urantia-based faith.(1) Yahweh was a tribal deity, with the early Israelite predecessors being polytheistic. This version of Yahweh took on many human qualities.
(2) Moses was the first to admit there were many gods for the people, but that their god would be Yahweh. While Yahweh still have many human emotions, he became less of a human and more of a spiritual entity.
(3) With time, Yahweh became even less and less a real presence. That is, while there were promises of a time that the Israelites would be with Yahweh, he became more of a cosmic entity with very few human characteristics beyond some of the emotions of mankind (and not all the good emotions!).
(4) When the time of Jesus was at hand, people wanted the presence of a deity among them again. Many found this in the personality of Jesus. The Jewish deity again took on humanity so that people could fathom him. However, most Jews could not accept this, so Jesus became a gentile god.
(5) The Jewish god had become a singular deity and all other gods were false. Thus, to believe in God the Father and Jesus as a god, the trinity had to be formulated so that the Christians would not be viewed as polytheists.The plain facts are that people make God into their own image. Making Jesus into a god does just that. An invisible god consisting only of spirit is virtually unknowable but a human god is supposedly not.
As far as the Urantia “revelation”, here is my theory: with the passing of time, the intellectuals who wrote the Urantia book realized that there were many scientific shortcomings to the bible. So the Urantia book was written to “correct” these scientific shortcomings. Also, it appears that they wanted Jesus to be much more than the bible ever said he was, so they turned him into some “creator son” along with 700k others. The trinity in UB has nothing in common with the bible, and Jesus, although a god, is not part of the trinity, which is at odds with all forms of Christianity. Even JWs only see Jesus as a former angel, not a god.
Logic would lead one to assume that Urantia believers are the most polytheistic/henotheistic believers of either all times or at least modern times. If Jesus is a god but not part of the trinity, and Jesus is but one of 700k “creator sons”, then the other 699,999 “creator sons” are gods too. So you basically believe in 700,001 gods.
Quote (Stu @ May 04 2008,20:51) Quote Nevertheless, when I worship God, I still feel the presence of peace rushing over me. I even tingle sometimes from head to toe (some call this the annointing of the holy Spirit of God). I don't know what I call it, but it's still with me. With me through this searching. With me through losing faith. And I'm grateful. See what happens with the blinkers off? You are able to describe things that the blinkered cannot bring themselves to describe.
Stuart
And likewise with scientific religion blinkers on, men think that there is no point to life and that we will be nothing when we die.That too is a limiting set of blinkers because it blinds a person from seeing the purpose and that in turn affects the direction one takes.
Are you acknowledging that all man's knowledge is a blinder because they vainly draw conclusions from a position of great lack, or are you saying that you are the only one with blinkers off?
Wasn't sure.
I vote for the first option anyway.
I guess it all depends on how we define god or God. It would be possible to have a supreme all-powerful creator or God, who then would create lesser but still immortal entities who would could be invested with some portion of cosmic or divine power, or gods. In this sense Christianity and Islam who have their angelic orders are no different. What is the essential difference between an Archangel and a god. What is the difference between a pagan god, and a powerful demon or a fallen angel, gradations of power, whether or not they are worshiped or venerated? To have a meaningful discussion on Henotheism we need to have some common definitions of divine and god. It would be an interesting topic.
Hi t8
(To recap)
Stu: See what happens with the blinkers off? You are able to describe things that the blinkered cannot bring themselves to describe.
t8: And likewise with scientific religion blinkers on, men think that there is no point to life and that we will be nothing when we die. That too is a limiting set of blinkers because it blinds a person from seeing the purpose and that in turn affects the direction one takes…
Stu: Like I said…, as exemplified by t8.
t8: Are you acknowledging that all man's knowledge is a blinder because they vainly draw conclusions from a position of great lack, or are you saying that you are the only one with blinkers off? Wasn't sure. I vote for the first option anyway.
I was pointing out that a religious world-view blinkers you to seeing, and therefore being able to describe a foreign worldview. Your strawman of non-belief equating to ‘no point to life’ exemplifies those blinkers perfectly. You could attempt to reverse the situation but in that case how would I be blinded from something that Hebrews 11:1 says you cannot see anyway?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 09 2008,07:03) Who started him off this time? Stuart
Not me. Or at least I hope it wasn't me
.Quote (Colter @ May 09 2008,10:21) Quote (Stu @ May 10 2008,00:03) Who started him off this time?
….said the atheist who spends his days on religious forum's
Colter
Hey, everyone needs a hobby
.Quote (Not3in1 @ May 04 2008,19:36) It's no secret that I have been losing faith over the past 6 months. My posts reflect this change so dramatically. I know because I have gone back and read some posts from “before” my turn. I was trying to pin-point why the change took place. Ironically, the change began as I studied harder, as I dug deeper into the scriptures (mainly the OT). As I looked at the discrepancies, while hearing Nick point out that I should be focusing on the promises rather than the faults. I tried to listen to him. Knowing that he was where I had come from – a dedicated servant no matter what. Perhaps it is easier to serve when you have blinders on. I know it is easier to lead horses when they have these blinders on their eyes. They are not distracted by things they can see out of the corner of their eyes.
But I took my blinders off anyway, against caution, against the kindest advice. I took them off because I wanted to find the truth.
The only thing I have found is that the bible cannot completely be true. It's words cannot completely be trusted. Dedicated servants do not see it, or they do not want to see it. When they do see it, they ignore it. This has left me confused. And I wonder who has more “truth” – the one who leaves the blinders on, or the one who takes them off?
Nevertheless, when I worship God, I still feel the presence of peace rushing over me. I even tingle sometimes from head to toe (some call this the annointing of the holy Spirit of God). I don't know what I call it, but it's still with me. With me through this searching. With me through losing faith. And I'm grateful.
Ironically the harder I studied the deeper my faith became. I had the experience and privilege of going to 3 different universities for my education, and I was very very busy at all three sorting out my own spirituality. I went to a public secular school, an extremely liberal Christian Univ. and finally a conservative Christian Univ. I started at a totally secular school, Indiana Univ at South Bend, and there I met a brilliant man, a professor who eventually became a close friend, who was also an Evangelical Christian. Having been, prior to going to school (I went to college somewhat later in life than most, my late 20's) a Christian in semi-Charismatic circles, this was a surprise to me. Here is this guy…. graduated undergraduate studies in 3 years, top honors in psychology and chemistry, goes to medical school and happens to read a book called God, Freedom and Evil by Alvin Plantinga and this made him leave Fresno and his medical residency to begin his PhD in Philosophy at Notre Dame. He has now has completed both PhD's.. Psychiatry and Philosophy. Anyways…. having “grown up” as a young Christian around these non intellectual or even anti intellectual people…. people who caused me “lose my faith” by telling me God must not love me because He did not give me the gift of speaking tongues…. that since I didn't speak in tongues I either wasn't saved or I was harboring some secret sin in my life…. Christians like that…. then meeting a devout Christian who had NOT decided to “just believe”… he had investigated the claims for God's existence, the reliability of the Bible, the rationality of the Trinity, in other words, mere Christianity, looked hard and long at the claims of Christ, and was STILL and Christian!!! This was a great shock to me, but I soon learned that this was quite common, brilliant men and women for thousands of years had been believers and they had faced their doubts and come out on the other side stronger believers than ever. Its important to acknowledge one's doubts and deal with them as best as we can. Of course, in any epistemological endeavor one has to eventually rest on “faith” of some sort. You can only ask “why?” for so long. Even the atheist has to have faith that there is no God, for he or she can surely never prove that no such being exists. Anyway, a helpful book in dealing with doubts is “In Two Minds” by the brilliant Oxford educated writer Os Guinness. http://www.amazon.com/two-minds-dilemma-doubt-resolve/dp/0877847711Its important to realize, and to always remember that you are not the first one to have a “dark night of the soul”, and that it is highly highly unlikely that you will ever ask a question that has not already been asked and answered hundreds if not thousands of times. Of course, whether or not the answer(s) satisfies you is another matter entirely, but just know that you are not alone in your search, and that geniuses like Augustine, Aquinas, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, Frances Turretin, Robert Dick Wilson, BB Warfield, John Murray, etc etc etc have all gone before you.
As far as “discrepancies” go, have you ever read When Critics Ask by Norm Geisler? How about the New International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties by Gleason Archer? Consulted commentaries? How about Hard Sayings of the Bible by Walter Kaiser? I thought not…
People who study the bible for a living, highly educated people in the original languages have examined the difficult passages much more thoroughly than you or I could. Don't sell yourself short by only listening to the skeptical side of things.blessings,
KenThanks, Ken. Wow this post was unexpected and very welcomed. It seems I have run to the dessert and back to the ocean, at least a few hundred times in my trek for truth. I guess I have become more liberal in my thinking. Only because all the arguments are starting to sound the same, and starting to look like they hold the same evidence. I'm reserving my final judgement…
Thank you for your thoughts. I really do appreciate them so very much.
Love,
Mandy OH! And I will check out the link – thank you!Epistemaniac
Quote Don't sell yourself short by only listening to the skeptical side of things.
Augustine, Aquinas et al are not actually investigating the nature of truth, but the management of doctrine. The thing is that no one is properly skeptical of the skeptical view. Make a good point against the absurdity of taking literally things that are not supported by evidence and what do the professors in the conservative seminaries, uh sorry ‘universities’ (who are not offering any kind of objective education at all) do? Do they give a robust answer to probing questions? No. They simply laugh mockingly and shut the door. They have no actual answers, they just take young people aside and give them the message of indoctrination. I note you say you were ‘busy sorting out your spirituality’. What on earth has that got to do with getting a proper liberal (with a small ‘l’) education? Did you learn anything honest about evolution or Spinoza or even Paine or Marx at the conservative christian college?The atheist is not postulating any beings and thus is not requiring faith. Honestly you claim a big fancy knowledge of philosophy but you make the simplest blunders.
Stuart
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 11 2008,14:28) Even the atheist has to have faith that there is no God, for he or she can surely never prove that no such being exists.
You are a simply of parroting the words of others without actually looking into this statement. Does it take faith for you to not believe in Zeus? How about Allah? Ra? Brahman?No, more than likely, you don't even consider these other gods. They mean nothing to you. Now, go one step further and you have the typical atheist. He/she just believes in one less god than you.
I am still a theist — that is, I believe in a Creator God — but I simply no longer believe that Yahweh is an accurate representation. It takes no faith on my part to disbelieve in Yahweh.
That is basically what all revealed monotheistic religions are: an inadequate means of trying to describe a practically unknowable God.
Hello Mandy
I am addressing this post especially to you, because I see the struggle you have finding truth.
Man has always tried to explain the unknown, because it is against mans ego to admit, I don't know.
And so with their own intellect, and philosophy, have tried to convince man, they are right; thus, the many different believes and denominations.
Jesus came to reveal the Father to us. He first revealed him to the twelve apostles whom HE chose. He did not pick any from the pharisees, or scribes; the educated elite. He chose from the lowest of class of people, fishermen. Why? Because he knew that they would listen to him, instead of arguing, relying on their own wisdom.
It caused people to take notice, when one day they began to speak.Acts 4:13 “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.”
Perhaps it was even to the surprise of the apostles themselves, but it was what Jesus did promise them.
John 14:26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
What he had promised them occurred fifty days after his resurrection, they all received the Holly Spirit, and with that understanding.
Paul too, tells us, that without the Holy Spirit, no man will understand the things of God.1 Cor. 2:11 “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”
But man will never admit that.
Mandy, my advice to you is the advice that James gave to all of us.
James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally , and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
And not to forget the promise Jesus gave us.
Luke 11:13 “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
Never start your bible study without prayer, asking God for his Holy Spirit to guide you. Put aside the things that are confusing, trust in God's word. Doubt men, but never doubt God's word just because you are uncertain of its meaning; give yourself time to grow, God does.
I too, have given up going to church, ten years ago; it takes some getting used too, not doing the things you had become accustomed to do by tradition. For you to grow in truth and knowledge, you have to leave behind whatever is holding you back.Luke 9:62 “And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
I have never regretted taking hold of that plough.
But remember this, Satan will not easily let go of you; he will try to trip you up, put doubts in your mind when ever he can. When in doubt, don't panic, go to God's word and seek the truth. God will allow Satan to test your faith, but he will never leave you.God bless you, IM4Truth
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 11 2008,14:28) Even the atheist has to have faith that there is no God, for he or she can surely never prove that no such being exists.
You are a simply of parroting the words of others without actually looking into this statement. Does it take faith for you to not believe in Zeus? How about Allah? Ra? Brahman?No, more than likely, you don't even consider these other gods. They mean nothing to you. Now, go one step further and you have the typical atheist. He/she just believes in one less god than you.
I am still a theist — that is, I believe in a Creator God — but I simply no longer believe that Yahweh is an accurate representation. It takes no faith on my part to disbelieve in Yahweh.
That is basically what all revealed monotheistic religions are: an inadequate means of trying to describe a practically unknowable God.
Hi KevinBoy, You sure have gone a long way from your baptist days.
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) You are a simply of parroting the words of others without actually looking into this statement. Does it take faith for you to not believe in Zeus? How about Allah? Ra? Brahman? Yes “I believe” that zeus, allah, ra, brahman were not gods at all. It does take faith to believe that because I cannot prove that they didnt exist.
Blessings. Hope you and yours is well.
WJ
Dear Georg,
Thank you for your words of encourgement, and indeed they did encourage me!!In reading your simple account of how Jesus chose the 12, and how we are to study, reminds me that our Father is not always angry with me for “not getting it”. Sometimes I think that I am one of the ones who are “ever studying but never learning…”. That frustrates me to no end! I see other women here expounding on scripture and able to argue a good debate and I think to myself, “Well, Mandy, their minds are just a bit sharper than yours.”. Sometimes I think that God is constantly frustrated with me.
The other day I saw a bumper sticker that said, “You make God smile”. And I instantly got tears in my eyes. Not because it made me happy, but because I thought, “I don't.”. I don't make God smile – I frustrate him. I guess I imagine that he is angry most of the time. I guess I've been reading too much in the OT lately….
Anyway, bless you Georg. I so appreciate you reaching out to me. Lately I've only checked in here briefly because I've been trying to resuscitate my marriage (which seems to be working, praise God). So, I'm glad I caught this post directed to me.
Love to you and Irene,
MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 12 2008,11:19) Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) Quote (epistemaniac @ July 11 2008,14:28) Even the atheist has to have faith that there is no God, for he or she can surely never prove that no such being exists.
You are a simply of parroting the words of others without actually looking into this statement. Does it take faith for you to not believe in Zeus? How about Allah? Ra? Brahman?No, more than likely, you don't even consider these other gods. They mean nothing to you. Now, go one step further and you have the typical atheist. He/she just believes in one less god than you.
I am still a theist — that is, I believe in a Creator God — but I simply no longer believe that Yahweh is an accurate representation. It takes no faith on my part to disbelieve in Yahweh.
That is basically what all revealed monotheistic religions are: an inadequate means of trying to describe a practically unknowable God.
Hi KevinBoy, You sure have gone a long way from your baptist days.
Quote (kejonn @ July 13 2008,00:21) You are a simply of parroting the words of others without actually looking into this statement. Does it take faith for you to not believe in Zeus? How about Allah? Ra? Brahman? Yes “I believe” that zeus, allah, ra, brahman were not gods at all. It does take faith to believe that because I cannot prove that they didnt exist.
Blessings. Hope you and yours is well.
WJ
Are you being honest WJ? Because I never needed any faith to disbelieve those other gods because I was told from a young age that they were nothing but myths.And yes, I certainly have come far from my baptist days. The “progression” came from basically the bible itself. First, bible study showed me the trinity theology was flawed. Then, bible study showed me pre-existence was flawed. Bible study then further showed me that Jesus as the promised Jewish messiah was flawed. Finally, noting the brutality — what you like to call “justice” — of the OT god, Yawheh, I saw the that the bible description of God was flawed.
With all of this added together, it was actually rather refreshing to find that there was another faith that didn't make God into another human being. The bible says we are made in God's image but the truth is that God in the bible is made in the image of man, with the same set of failings and emotions.
Hello Mandy
Know that you are on the right track, and you are right, God is never mad or disappointed with any one that doesn't get it, he is always happy to see you in his word, he just sometimes waits for you to ask him, should you forget, you may not thing so, but it is very important.
Satan has no greater pleasure than to see families fall apart, we have to remember, it is he who is behind all the trouble in the world, and yours. Be strong and make no hasty decisions, I will pray with you that all will come to a happy end.Love you and God bless you, Georg.
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