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Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 05 2010,05:39) Jude 1:4(KJV) reads: Quote For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:4(NIV) reads:
Quote For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
I find it interesting that there is a significant difference between these two scriptures which The Thinker has pointed to. Which if either is the correct translation.
KerwinThe King James once again is faulty in its translation!
Most all the translations on Biblegateway.com and Blueletterbible.org render the verse different.
AT Robertson writes…
Our only Master and Lord (ton monon despothn kai kurion hmwn). For the force of the one article for one person see on “2Pe 1:1”. For despothn of Christ see 2 Peter 2:1 . Denying (arnoumenoi). So 2 Peter 2:1 . See also Matthew 10:33 ; 1 Timothy 5:8 ; Titus 1:16 ; 1 John 2:22 .
The GSR once again is at play here because of the force of the one article.
But even so, the key is there is “Only One Master and Lord”.
WJ
Kerwin said:
Quote I find it interesting that there is a significant difference between these two scriptures which The Thinker has pointed to. Which if either is the correct translation. Kerwin,
Have you noticed the problem with the Majority text (KJV)? It says “the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.” If God is your “only” Lord then how can Jesus Christ be your Lord too?The Critical text is an older Greek manuscript and thought to be more reliable because it would be closer to the original. It says,
καὶ τὸν μόνον δεσπότην8 καὶ κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἀρνούμενοι.
“and denying the only Master and Lord of us Jesus Christ.”
thinker
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,04:16) [יהוה] GOD’s Name [י] Yod [ה] Ha [ו] Vav [ה] Hey is CORRECTLY pronounced YÄ-hä-vā & [יה] YÄ
Strong’s con. Heb. # 3068, 3069 & 3050 should have been used instead of relying on Wikipedia for your “Truth”!
Dr James Strong was a Bible scholar, Wikipedia Paramount's to hearsay; inadmissible in a court of law.
Why do you insist on propagating a half truth?I gave you other sources besides “Wikipedia” and as far as “Strongs” he has chosen a preferred rendering of the name because he cannot know the correct pronunciation because “the vowels were lost“. There is no way to know the exact pronunciation of the Tetragammation. But you close your eyes and insist that there is!
The following is further proof for you which is not from “Wikipedia”.
“SINCE ANCIENT HEBREW DID NOT USE ANY VOWEL MARKINGS THE ACTUAL PRONUNCIATION OF THE SACRED NAME IS SIMPLY NOT KNOWN….There are some people (Ed) who, despite the educated uncertainty of careful scholarship and Jewish tradition, pretend to “truly” understand the phonetics of the sacred name and offer to “restore it” to those of us willing to be initiated into their (Eds) secret knowledge Source
I am beginning to wonder about your scholarship and whether you have done any extensive Biblical study or research or just spent your life with made up numbers and writing and promoting your book?
WJ
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote I am beginning to wonder about your scholarship and whether you have done any extensive Biblical study or research or just spent your life with made up numbers and writing and promoting your book?
Keith,I was also wondering about Ed's “scholarship” when he showed that he was ignorant of the older manuscripts which read “only Master and Lord Jesus Christ” (Jude 4). And even after I introduced the older readings to him he accused me of poor reading comprehension. Yet he thinks that he is appointed to “bridge gaps.”
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 04 2010,22:56) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 05 2010,00:01) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 02 2010,10:07) TO ALL: Today on the “Arain dissenter's” thread I said that Christ became the “only Master and Lord.”
I said:
Quote Jesus Christ was exalted to God's right hand and in that position He enjoys the title “only Master and Lord” of men (Jude vs. 4-5). Nick replied:
Quote You have just suggested he BECAME GOD. Then I said:
Quote Aahhhhhhhhhh! I said that Jesus became the “only Master and Lord.” You say that I suggest that He became God. I thought the terms “Lord” and “God” were not equal terms in your thinking? Anti-trinitarian insincerity is exposed! Many of you including Nick have insisted that the terms “Lord” in reference to Jesus and “God” are not equal terms. Jesus is “Lord” you say but He is not “God.”
Yet Nick says that I suggest that Christ became God when I never used the word “God” in reference to Jesus in that post. I said that Jesus became the “only Master and Lord.” So Nick himself infers that the terms “Lord” and “God” are equal.
Okay, if the term “Lord” in reference to Jesus and the term “God” are not equal terms, then let all of you who deny that Jesus is God PUBLICALLY confess Him as the “only Master and Lord” (Jude vss. 4-5). As many of you who fail to PUBLICALLY confess Jesus as the “only Master and Lord” are by your silence admitting that the term “Lord” in reference to Jesus and the term “God” are equal.
Nicky just dug a deep hole for himself. He must hope that his Arain buddies can dig him out.
thinker
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our Yahuweh into lasciviousness, and denying the only [despotēs] Yahuweh 'Elohim, and our [kyrios] Lord Yashuw'ah HaMoshiach.Despotēs: Master, Lord.
Relates only to a slave and denotes absolute ownership and uncontrolled power.
Kyrios: [1] He to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord. [2] The possessor and disposer of a thing. [3] The owner; one who has control of the person, the master. [4] In the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor. [5] Is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master. [6] This title [kyriosis] given to: Yahuweh, the Messiah, Angels, Patriarchs, Prophets, Teachers, Masters, Sirs.
Has a wider meaning, applicable to the various ranks and relations of life and not suggestive of either property or of absolutism.
TT your straining at a gnat.
Matthew 23:24
ConNo you guys are straining at a gnat.
For the scriptures says Jesus is our “ONLY” Master and Lord!
You guys play games with the words “Theos”, “despotēs” and “kyrios”!
Do you see the word “ONLY” (kyrios) in Jude 1:4, it means “alone, without a companion”? Therefore Jude 1:5 cannot mean a different Lord than verse 4.
Have you shut your eyes to this truth?
This means that the Arians have a conundrum, for they must swallow a camel and say that the Father is not Master and Lord, or they have to admit that they serve 2 Lords and 2 Masters!
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deut 6:4
Now before you go on about the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, YHWH in Deut 6:4, remember that the LXX translates the Hebrew YHWH into “kyrios” the same Greek word used for Lord in Jude 1:4, 5 which states…
…how that the Lord (kyrios), having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (Jude 1:5) in speaking of the same Lord (kyrios) in Jude 1:4 which is Jesus!
So how many Masters and Lords do you have or serve?
My Bible says there is only “One Lord” that we serve. (1 Cor 8:6, Eph 4:5, Deut 6:4, Mk 12:29)
Jesus said you cannot serve 2 Masters, whether it be money or anything you make first in your life. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is to be “first” in our lives. Paul said he was a “Bond slave” to Jesus and a Prisoner of Jesus. In the Hebrew world if Jesus was not God, that kind of devotion would be Idolatry and the breaking of the Shema the first commandment (Deut 6:4 Mk 12:29).
Jesus demands that men “lay down their lives” even to the point of death for “HIM”, (Mk 8:34-38) No one but God can make those kind of claims on a mans life!
The Hypocrisy of the Arians is they would not dare say that the Father is not Lord though the Bible says there is “ONLY ONE Lord” and that is Jesus, while at the same time they claim only One God “Theos” and condemn the Trinitarians for claiming Jesus is God also!
Yes they do strain at a gnat and swallow a camel!
WJ
Quote Jesus said you cannot serve 2 Masters, whether it be money or anything you make first in your life. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is to be “first” in our lives. Paul said he was a “Bond slave” to Jesus and a Prisoner of Jesus. In the Hebrew world if Jesus was not God, that kind of devotion would be Idolatry and the breaking of the Shema the first commandment (Deut 6:4 Mk 12:29). Correct Yashuw'ah did say we can only serve ONE MASTER and whom may that be?
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Yashuw'ah unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Yahuweh thy 'Elohim, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 4:8
The verse you spoke of deals with “mammon”.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve 'Elohim and mammon.
What does that verse mean? If you “serve” yourself you cannot “serve” 'Elohim. Nothing else is implied.
Yashuw'ah tells you to serve each other.
Luke 22:26 But ye not so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
The writer of Romans says he serves the Father with his spirit through the good news by his son.
Romans 1:9 For 'Elohim is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Only “ONE” G-d mentioned here.
Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of 'Elohim and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Now you can serve:
Your wife.
Your family.
Your employer.
Your church.
Your friends.
Your neighbors.
Your community.
Your country.
Your Lamb OF 'Elohim.
And Yahuweh!
Your the one twisting.
Constitutionalist said to WJ:
Quote Now you can serve: Your wife.
Your family.
Your employer.
Your church.
Your friends.
Your neighbors.
Your community.
Your country.
Your Lamb OF 'Elohim.
And Yahuweh!
Your the one twisting.
Which one of the above saved the people out of Egypt? Was it my employer or my church? Was it my wife or my neighbor?According to Jude 4-5 it was Jesus.
Your commenting on “kurios” out of context makes you appear foolish.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,11:03) Constitutionalist said to WJ: Quote Now you can serve: Your wife.
Your family.
Your employer.
Your church.
Your friends.
Your neighbors.
Your community.
Your country.
Your Lamb OF 'Elohim.
And Yahuweh!
Your the one twisting.
Which one of the above saved the people out of Egypt? Was it my employer or my church? Was it my wife or my neighbor?According to Jude 4-5 it was Jesus.
Your commenting on “kurios” out of context makes you appear foolish.
thinker
The Yahuweh 'Elohim saved the Israelites out of Egypt as I previously explained. Your commenting on “kurios” out of context.Constitutionalist said:
Quote The Yahuweh 'Elohim saved the Israelites out of Egypt as I previously explained. Your commenting on “kurios” out of context.
Here we go again!For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Show how the word “Lord” can refer to Jesus Christ in verse 4 and then mystically and magically refer to a different person in verse 5. Incorporate Paul's statement that it was Christ who accompanied them in the wilderness.
While you're at it discredit the Greek text which says outright that it was Jesus who saved them out of Egypt.
thinker
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 05 2010,13:39) Yashuw'ah tells you to serve each other.
Does Jesus tell you to call one another your “Only Master and Lord”?Are you a Bond Slave or Prisoner to anyone but God?
I repeat…
“Jesus said you cannot serve 2 Masters, whether it be money or anything you make first in your life. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is to be “first” in our lives. Paul said he was a “Bond slave” to Jesus and a Prisoner of Jesus. IN THE HEBREW WORLD IF JESUS WAS NOT GOD, THAT KIND OF DEVOTION WOULD BE IDOLATRY AND THE BREAKING OF THE SHEMA THE FIRST COMMANDMENT (Deut 6:4 Mk 12:29).
Jesus demands that men “lay down their lives” even to the point of death for “HIM”, (Mk 8:34-38) No one but God can make those kind of claims on a mans life!
Why don't you address these points?
The point Jesus is making is clear. Where mens hearts are, there is where their treasure is, meaning when men are placing importance of anything over God himself who is our only Master and Lord in whom we serve then they are serving another Master.
You cannot serve 2 masters extends to anything that is more important than God himself who is our only Master!
How many Masters and Lords do you have?
You have never answered this question, nor confessed that Jesus is your “Only Master and Lord”!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,14:50) Constitutionalist said: Quote The Yahuweh 'Elohim saved the Israelites out of Egypt as I previously explained. Your commenting on “kurios” out of context.
Here we go again!For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Show how the word “Lord” can refer to Jesus Christ in verse 4 and then mystically and magically refer to a different person in verse 5. Incorporate Paul's statement that it was Christ who accompanied them in the wilderness.
While you're at it discredit the Greek text which says outright that it was Jesus who saved them out of Egypt.
thinker
JackIts incredible how he ignores the word “ONLY” (Monos), and that the writer could not mean that “Kyrious” in verse 5 is another “Lord”.
This is what you call willing blindness and denial!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2010,07:06) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,14:50) Constitutionalist said: Quote The Yahuweh 'Elohim saved the Israelites out of Egypt as I previously explained. Your commenting on “kurios” out of context.
Here we go again!For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Show how the word “Lord” can refer to Jesus Christ in verse 4 and then mystically and magically refer to a different person in verse 5. Incorporate Paul's statement that it was Christ who accompanied them in the wilderness.
While you're at it discredit the Greek text which says outright that it was Jesus who saved them out of Egypt.
thinker
JackIts incredible how he ignores the word “ONLY” (Monos), and that the writer could not mean that “Kyrious” in verse 5 is another “Lord”.
This is what you call willing blindness and denial!
WJ
WJ,You're too kind. It's called “lying.”
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2010,07:03) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Jan. 05 2010,13:39) Yashuw'ah tells you to serve each other.
Does Jesus tell you to call one another your “Only Master and Lord”?Are you a Bond Slave or Prisoner to anyone but God?
I repeat…
“Jesus said you cannot serve 2 Masters, whether it be money or anything you make first in your life. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is to be “first” in our lives. Paul said he was a “Bond slave” to Jesus and a Prisoner of Jesus. IN THE HEBREW WORLD IF JESUS WAS NOT GOD, THAT KIND OF DEVOTION WOULD BE IDOLATRY AND THE BREAKING OF THE SHEMA THE FIRST COMMANDMENT (Deut 6:4 Mk 12:29).
Jesus demands that men “lay down their lives” even to the point of death for “HIM”, (Mk 8:34-38) No one but God can make those kind of claims on a mans life!
Why don't you address these points?
The point Jesus is making is clear. Where mens hearts are, there is where their treasure is, meaning when men are placing importance of anything over God himself who is our only Master and Lord in whom we serve then they are serving another Master.
You cannot serve 2 masters extends to anything that is more important than God himself who is our only Master!
How many Masters and Lords do you have?
You have never answered this question, nor confessed that Jesus is your “Only Master and Lord”!
WJ
AMEN BROTHER! !thinker
Hi WJ and TT,
You would undersand God better if you were one with the divinely appointed Lord, Jesus.
It is a tragedy that you do not know WHO God is.Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 06 2010,03:54) If God is your “only” Lord then how can Jesus Christ be your Lord too? thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,Very simple: Lord means “Owner”, so “the Son” ([יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă]) of “The Owner” ([יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā) is owner as well; that's how!
[Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs means Lord and is akin to the Hebrew word [אדני] Âdônây meaning Lord or Owner.LORD in the “Old” “Testament”=117; Is translated from GOD's Personal name יהוה YHVH!
Juggling the facts with personal 'spin' is a distraction away from TRUE “Bible Truth”=117!Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2010,04:16) I am beginning to wonder about your scholarship and whether you have done any extensive Biblical study or research or just spent your life with made up numbers and writing and promoting your book? WJ
Hi WJ,Beginning?
Wasn't that your premise all along?
Ed J
ED J said:
Quote Very simple: Lord means “Owner”, so “the Son” ([יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă]) of “The Owner” ([יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā) is owner as well; that's how! So the Son is co-owner with God. The Son OWNS you and is therefore SOVEREIGN over you because you are HIS property. Sounds like a divine perogative to me.
Thank you!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 06 2010,13:43) ED J said: Quote Very simple: Lord means “Owner”, so “the Son” ([יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă]) of “The Owner” ([יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā) is owner as well; that's how! So the Son is co-owner with God. The Son OWNS you and is therefore SOVEREIGN over you because you are HIS property. Sounds like a divine perogative to me.
Thank you!
thinker
Hi Thinker,Now what we have presented here is a very interesting yes/no?
Since you say there is no bridge? Please explain this very interesting new dichotomy?
On the one hand you say (standardized trinity doctrine) Jesus is equal with God (John 10:29 / John14:28),
and on the other hand you say though we are Gods Children, Christ cannot raise us up to equality status? (Philip.2:6)
Please indulge for us people with “only” half intelligence, and explain this perceived discrepancy?Romans 8:14-17 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received
the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness
with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs;
heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ (Gal.6:6-7 / James 2:5);
if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.John 5:18: …(Jesus said) that God was his father, making himself equal with God.
This thought (equality with God), caused the Religious Leaders to crucify Jesus.LORD of Hosts…(AKJV Bible)…His Hosts=117: Jesus and ALL of His brethren! (Rev.11:15)
“Christ Mind”=117; Christ(77)+Mind(40)=117!Philippians 2:5 says: “Let this MIND be in you, which was also in CHRIST Jesus“:
Philippians 2:6 Who being in the form of God, thought it NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD.
The identity of GOD=26 is [יהוה=26] spoken as YÄ=26 and God's Son's name is [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă.
I seems our religious leaders, WJ and ThinklingMan, want to crucify us all (Jesus brethren) over this very same issue?
Certainly they wouldn't have been like the Pharisees (2,000 years ago) calling for Jesus' death?Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTo all,
Is this the type of discussion Paul is referring to in his letter to Timothy when he writes.
1 Timothy 6:3-5(NIV) reads:
Quote If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
ED J said:
Quote Now what we have presented here is a very interesting yes/no?
Since you say there is no bridge? Please explain this very interesting new dichotomy?
On the one hand you say (standardized trinity doctrine) Jesus is equal with God (John 10:29 / John14:28),
and on the other hand you say though we are Gods Children, Christ cannot raise us up to equality status? (Philip.2:6)
Please indulge for us people with “only” half intelligence, and explain this perceived discrepancy?TO ALL:
I am committed to defining all things within their biblical context. ED J left out that we are also CRUCIFIED with Christ. Yet it is His suffering and death ALONE that saves men. It would be insane to infer that our crucifixion with Christ makes us “Savior” with Him. Likewise, it is erroneous to infer that our resurrection with Christ makes us “Lord” with Him.
Our death, burial and resurrection with Christ has limited reference to our relationship to sin:
“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin” Romans 6:5.
I am done engaging with ED J. It's like playing chess with someone who doesn't know the basic principles of the game. The so called “discrepancy” is in ED J's mind because he does not know the basic principles of biblical interpretation.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 05 2010,16:16) Hi WJ and TT,
You would undersand God better if you were one with the divinely appointed Lord, Jesus.
It is a tragedy that you do not know WHO God is.
NHWas he Lord before he was “appointed” Lord after his resurrection?
Was he Lord when he laid the foundations of the earth with his own hands?
Your supposition is flawed! Phil 2:6-8, Jude 1:4, 5
WJ
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