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Quote (david @ May 07 2006,04:11) Is that all you got?
Hi david,
I never put all of my cards on the table to start with and I want others to add.It is not a competition or a knowledge challenge is it?
Many know more than you and I do and I would like all to contribute.
Quote Hi david,
The bible says he was raised from the dead. That would seem to mean that the body he died in was raised back to life.
Sorry, I was just hoping for a scripture, or two, or ten. Had you had something to say, I would have addressed it in my post. I have had a headache all day and am going to bed now.
Please read the scriptures I posted and comment freely, as I know you will.Hi david,
Your theory of multiple bodies to suit the situation has me entirely baffled. Even having a specially perforated form to let Thomas put his hand through the holes!The new abilities Jesus had in his old body which was yet to be transformed should not be any sort of proof that it was not the body Jesus died in.
If someone you knew and loved died would you be expecting to see him walking around or would that be the last thing you would expect? So how come you are surprised that the disciples did not recognise Jesus?
Does the fact he was wearing clothes and not wrapped in the bindings of death show you it was not the man who had died but Jesus in another body form?
Circumstantial evidence is weak evidence and most of what you have said is circumstantial.
.
The sign to all men given was that the man who had died was alive. That is what resurrection means. What use is the sign if he was not the same as he died, but was alive?Quote The bible says he was raised from the dead. That would SEEM TO MEAN that the body he died in was raised back to life. (Caps added)
Quote Circumstantial evidence is weak evidence and most of what you have said is circumstantial. You have no basis for your belief, other than the fact that this is always what you believed.
What does this scripture say in your NASB Bible?
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”Threre, issue resolved.
2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”He is not flesh and blood in heaven. And when he was resurrected, he was resurrected as a spirit creature–this is what all the scriptures indicate.
There is no scripture that gives evidence for your belief.
Quote That is what resurrection means. What use is the sign if he was not the same as he died, but was alive?
It was him, but he was raised as a spirit, which is what he was before his coming to earth, and which is what he was to be after his coming to earth. So why the shock that he would be resurrected as a spirit being?The price Christ paid was his perfect human life. If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
I find it somewhat odd that you have twice brought this topic up out of nowhere as if to accuse me of believing something quite odd, when it is you who apparently have no basis for your belief.
I would recommend reading each and every one of the scriptures I have posted and consider what they mean. Don't let your preconcieved beliefs get in the way of what the Bible says and what it doesn't say.david
Hi david,
The ransom price was paid with the death of the sacrificial victim. Jesus died.What happens to the body after death does not relate to that price.Doesn't it Nick? He gave his soul a ransom in exchange for many. The Bible speaks of the ransom of Christ Jesus. A ransom is one thing in exchange for another of equal value.
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?And this scripture?
Quote What does this scripture say in your NASB Bible?
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”And the other 15 scriptures?
If Jesus was a spirit he would be deceiving thomas by manfested fake temporary bodies with nail holes in them.
Plus Jesus promised to resurrect his own body in John 2:19
Hi,
Jehovahs witnesses also teach that we are saved by works, by membership in their organisation[Studies in the scripture Vol 1 pp 150, 152].What do you make of this?Hi,
Nick also teaches that Jonah was dead, while in the belly of the fish. [Jonah thread, April 13th]
What do you make of this Nick?There is a thread on “faith and works” that I started. Perhaps you would do better to look in that thread.
Quote If Jesus was a spirit he would be deceiving thomas by manfested fake temporary bodies with nail holes in them. How would Thomas have been deceived? Deceived into believing it was Jesus, which it was?
Thomas wanted to believe. He shouldn't have needed to see the holes to believe.
“Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.””Hi david,
I learn. That is why I am here. It is fascinating to see so much wisdom from those whose base is the Word of God and who are inspired by the Spirit of God. Keep looking and you will find more examples when I have had to change my mind because of compelling biblical truth.
You continue to preach the Jehovahs witness faith it seems.What have you learned?
You have missed my point apparently. You were quoting from something that was roughly 100 years old.
We learn.
You should know this as I discussed works and faith in the “works and faith” thread that I began. We have had these conversations before. Yet you go digging through anti-JW websites for things that lead you to false conclusions.
What have you learned?
Hi david,
What conclusions have I reached? I concluded that the JWs are deceived on most of the basic truths of christianity and the one about Jesus being Michael is extraordinary.The clear message is that despite all their hard work, intellectual knowledge and good works it is all futility as it is done without knowledge of salvation and without the direction of the Spirit of God. That is sad.Quote What conclusions have I reached?
If you could just focus for one second and stay on topic.You said that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are “saved by works.”
You mentioned a reference that was very old.I then said that You believed something you no longer believe.
I mentioned a reference which was older than your new belief on Jonah.I was hoping you would get the point that you too have changed your beliefs. If you want to know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe (or if I want to know what you believe) it may not be wise to look to 100 years ago. Especially, when on a topic that you and I have discussed (so you should know what we believe in that regard).
Quote (david @ May 09 2006,08:07) Quote What conclusions have I reached?
If you could just focus for one second and stay on topic.You said that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are “saved by works.”
You mentioned a reference that was very old.I then said that You believed something you no longer believe.
I mentioned a reference which was older than your new belief on Jonah.I was hoping you would get the point that you too have changed your beliefs. If you want to know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe (or if I want to know what you believe) it may not be wise to look to 100 years ago. Especially, when on a topic that you and I have discussed (so you should know what we believe in that regard).
Hi david,
Sorry if I have misunderstood you. You say that what was taught was wrong and you now no longer believe in salvation by works?When will they realise that Jesus is not Michael, or will you show them that is incorrect and be a leader among them, a teacher of truth?
Hi david,
I have read your justifications for Jesus being Michael in another thread. What you have not shown is any scripture stating this matter plainly. What you have found is inferences that might make some believe it is truth.
The same can be said of the trinity diogma. Some see strong inferences that it is truth but it also is not written.
You have rightly rejected trinity as unbiblical so it baffles me that you do not seem to apply the same ruler to 'Jesus is Michael'.
Why is this?Quote When will they realise that Jesus is not Michael, or will you show them that is incorrect and be a leader among them The Bible:
MATTHEW 23:10
“Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ.”I would much rather discuss this in the Michael the archangel thread. (I think there are two of them.) But just so that people who stumble upon this thread understand what I believe:
WHO IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL?
The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name–“Who is Like God?”
He is referred to as “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS)
At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon (Gen 49:1,2; Mat 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. There is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus. There are 5 or so points that all strongly imply it however.JESUS CALLS OUT WITH AN ARCHANGELS VOICE.
At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael.
It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.” Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority?
For example, a king is above a noble. If you have a king, someone in great power and he calls out something of importance, you wouldn’t say: ‘He called out with a nobles voice,’ unless the King was a also a noble. If the king wasn’t a noble, you would say: He called out with the voice of a king. To say he called out with a nobles voice would be to diminish him, UNLESS HE WAS BOTH A NOBLE AND A KING.
It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14)
If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.“ARCHANGEL” IS NEVER FOUND IN PLURAL IN SCRIPTURE.
Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is only found in the singular, never in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.WHO TAKES ACTION AGAINST SATAN, “RULER OF THIS WORLD”?
Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16)
Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31)
Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them.
So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.WHO ELSE IS SPOKEN OF AS HAVING ANGELS UNDER SUBJECTION?
Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.
ARMY LEADER:
The Bible states that “Michael and HIS angels battled with the dragon….and its angels.” (Rev 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Rev 19:14-16) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels” (2 Thess 1:7; Mat 16:27; 24:31; 1 Pet 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Mat 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven–one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus–it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.JESUS IS COMMISSIONED TO DESTROY ALL THE NATIONS AT ARMAGEDDON
There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel.
Hi david,
I was not suggesting that the JW denomination was part of the body of Christ,
to which that quote belongs.
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