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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 05 2006,02:59) Yes cubes,
Are their lives dominated by the rules of men?
Hi Nick, if such things are true, then JWs whether they recognize it or not, have to a good extent missed Galatians 5:1 entangling the people again.Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Amen cubes, and the reason for so doing is to be able to hear the voice of the Spirit above the clamour of men's voices.
Have any of you had a parent that was killed in the war? A grandfather or great grandfather perhaps? An uncle? A brother? A cousin?
Rest assured it wasn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses who killed them.
Quote clamour of men's voices.
Interesting way to describe scripture Nick.Hi david,
Do you hear the voice of God in the teachings of your church?
Are the teachings of your religion equal, in fact, to scripture?Nick, you have yet to show me a single scripture other than the 'be in subjection to the superior authorities' one.
I haven't seen a single scripture from you that says: “Christians ought to be in the armed forces.”
Let's look at your one scripture in the light of other scriptures.Quote I don't know a lot about Gandhi. So let's talk about the early Christians, and the Bible writers, and God's servants in the Bible. God’s servants have always recognized that there are limits to the subjection that they conscientiously owe to the superior authorities.
About the time that Moses was born in Egypt, Pharaoh commanded two Hebrew midwives to kill all newborn Hebrew boys. The midwives, however, preserved the babies alive.
NICK, were they wrong to disobey Pharaoh? No, they were following their God-given conscience, and GOD BLESSED THEM FOR IT. (THE BIBLE-Exodus 1:15-20)When Israel was in exile in Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar demanded that his officials, including the Hebrews Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, bow before an image that he had placed on the plain of Dura. The three Hebrews refused.
NICK, WERE THEY WRONG? No, since following the king’s command would have meant disobeying God’s law.—Exodus 20:4, 5; Daniel 3:1-18.Similarly NICK, when the Jewish authorities commanded Peter and John to stop preaching about Jesus, they replied:
“Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves.” (Acts 4:19; 5:29) They could not keep silent.WHY DID THE EARLY CHRISTIANS NOT SERVE AS SOLDIERS?
Doubtless, each one carefully studied God’s Word and laws and made his personal decision on the basis of his Bible-trained conscience. They were neutral, “no part of the world,” and their neutrality forbade them to choose sides in this world’s conflicts. (John 17:16; 18:36) Further, they belonged to God. (2 Timothy 2:19) Laying down their lives for the State would have meant giving to Caesar what belonged to God. Moreover, they were part of an international brotherhood bound together in love. (John 13:34, 35; Colossians 3:14; 1 Peter 4:8; 5:9) They could not in good conscience take up arms with the possibility of killing a fellow Christian.
If the governmental authority demands something that offends a trained Christian conscience Nick, it is going beyond its God-given limit. Jesus indicated this when he said:
“Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” (Matthew 22:21)
When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.
Quote
Surely before you deliberately disobey God given authority you would prayerfully consider every aspect and every alternative before doing so?Nick, I wonder what you think of the Bible examples I mentioned where God's servants disobeyed the authorities BECAUSE IN EACH CASE, IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO–TO DISOBEY THE GOD APPOINTED AUTHORITIES, AND TO OBEY GOD.
What do you think of those references?Nick, I would really appreciate your feelings on God's servants who disobeyed the government and then were blessed for it.
Or another scripture would be nice.
You keep accusing me of following the teachings of my “church.” You wouldn't have gotten along very well with the earliest Christians Nick.
What would you have been considered back then, by them?
Hi david,
You seem far keener to propound your rebellion against government than show any respect for authority. Your words would carry more weight perhaps if you would insist that this was the exception and not the general rule in your attitude to authority.Quote (david @ May 05 2006,03:47) Have any of you had a parent that was killed in the war? A grandfather or great grandfather perhaps? An uncle? A brother? A cousin? Rest assured it wasn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses who killed them.
Chances are if one of your relatives got saved through defense and protection in time of trouble, it was probably not a JW that did it either… according to the strict stance that David takes. Though in my heart of hearts, I believe that people as individuals do what they have to do following their conscience, so someone who happens to be a JW might have saved your relative on his own accord, but would have done that as an individual breaking from the JW protocol.Hi cubes,
I agree
God is God, Mighty, Almighty God.
He makes His will happen despite the foolish machinations of weak men who are as grass.Quote You seem far keener to propound your rebellion against government than show any respect for authority. Your words would carry more weight perhaps if you would insist that this was the exception and not the general rule in your attitude to authority. Obviously it is the exception. There are very few instances where Jehovah's Witnesses do not follow the law of the land–only when doing so would be to directly violate God's commands–such as preaching the good news.
Jehovah's Witnesses are known for obeying the law, paying their taxes, etc.
And I realize that God is allowing these governments to rule for our benefit. But the governments are not above God. You must choose which kingdom you truly support Nick. Saying you are for God's kingdom is one thing. Words are cheap. Do not put human kingdoms above God's.Quote Nick, you have yet to show me a single scripture other than the 'be in subjection to the superior authorities' one.
I haven't seen a single scripture from you that says: “Christians ought to be in the armed forces.”
Let's look at your one scripture in the light of other scriptures.Quote
I don't know a lot about Gandhi. So let's talk about the early Christians, and the Bible writers, and God's servants in the Bible.God’s servants have always recognized that there are limits to the subjection that they conscientiously owe to the superior authorities.
About the time that Moses was born in Egypt, Pharaoh commanded two Hebrew midwives to kill all newborn Hebrew boys. The midwives, however, preserved the babies alive.
NICK, were they wrong to disobey Pharaoh? No, they were following their God-given conscience, and GOD BLESSED THEM FOR IT. (THE BIBLE-Exodus 1:15-20)When Israel was in exile in Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar demanded that his officials, including the Hebrews Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, bow before an image that he had placed on the plain of Dura. The three Hebrews refused.
NICK, WERE THEY WRONG? No, since following the king’s command would have meant disobeying God’s law.—Exodus 20:4, 5; Daniel 3:1-18.Similarly NICK, when the Jewish authorities commanded Peter and John to stop preaching about Jesus, they replied:
“Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves.” (Acts 4:19; 5:29) They could not keep silent.WHY DID THE EARLY CHRISTIANS NOT SERVE AS SOLDIERS?
Doubtless, each one carefully studied God’s Word and laws and made his personal decision on the basis of his Bible-trained conscience. They were neutral, “no part of the world,” and their neutrality forbade them to choose sides in this world’s conflicts. (John 17:16; 18:36) Further, they belonged to God. (2 Timothy 2:19) Laying down their lives for the State would have meant giving to Caesar what belonged to God. Moreover, they were part of an international brotherhood bound together in love. (John 13:34, 35; Colossians 3:14; 1 Peter 4:8; 5:9) They could not in good conscience take up arms with the possibility of killing a fellow Christian.
If the governmental authority demands something that offends a trained Christian conscience Nick, it is going beyond its God-given limit. Jesus indicated this when he said:
“Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” (Matthew 22:21)
When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.
Quote
Surely before you deliberately disobey God given authority you would prayerfully consider every aspect and every alternative before doing so?Nick, I wonder what you think of the Bible examples I mentioned where God's servants disobeyed the authorities BECAUSE IN EACH CASE, IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO–TO DISOBEY THE GOD APPOINTED AUTHORITIES, AND TO OBEY GOD.
What do you think of those references?Nick, I would really appreciate your feelings on God's servants who disobeyed the government and then were blessed for it.
Or another scripture would be nice.
You keep accusing me of following the teachings of my “church.” You wouldn't have gotten along very well with the earliest Christians Nick.
What would you have been considered back then, by them?
Nick, there are Bible precidents for disregarding human governements when they violate godly principles.
So despite the fact that human governments have been allowed to rule for a time, when the government asks of us that we go against God, obviously the Bible doesn't hold out that we disregard God. The Bible makes that clear.
Any comments on these scriptures?Quote (david @ May 05 2006,23:28) Quote You seem far keener to propound your rebellion against government than show any respect for authority. Your words would carry more weight perhaps if you would insist that this was the exception and not the general rule in your attitude to authority. Obviously it is the exception. There are very few instances where Jehovah's Witnesses do not follow the law of the land–only when doing so would be to directly violate God's commands–such as preaching the good news.
Jehovah's Witnesses are known for obeying the law, paying their taxes, etc.
And I realize that God is allowing these governments to rule for our benefit. But the governments are not above God. You must choose which kingdom you truly support Nick. Saying you are for God's kingdom is one thing. Words are cheap. Do not put human kingdoms above God's.
Hi david,
” My kingdom is not of this world..”
1Jn 4.5
“They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.”
Jn 17.14
” I have given them your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world”To quote the actions of early christians may give certain insights but compared with the word of God it is not in any way equivalent in direction or comparable to the recorded actions of the disciples in Acts.
To play out fearful scenarios only shows lack of awareness of the ability of God to take us through any future challenges. We are warned that there is one command from Government that must be disobeyed and that is the receiving of the Mark on the hand or forehead for commercial advantage shown in Revelation.
What this does show is that if God wanted us to make other decisions of this nature they too would be written.
The rest is of man.
Quote To quote the actions of early christians may give certain insights but compared with the word of God it is not in any way equivalent in direction or comparable to the recorded actions of the disciples in Acts. I agree. The Bible and the actions of the early Christians are by no means equivelant. But how the early Christians interpreted the Bible still does have merit. And the early the Christians, the more merit. What so called Christians do today, for example, means absolutely nothing. There was an apostasy, a turning away from the truth. If we found some who lived before this time, then we would get an uneffected view of matters before “twisted” thinking crept into the congregations. The earlier, the better.
I do not remember the disciples in Acts dying for their country. The disciples in Acts were dying or being thrown into prison for following God and preaching the good news of the kingdom. They were no part of Satan's world, but rather at odds with it, despite the fact that they were commendable citizens.
Hi david,
They were in the world but not of it.They entrusted their future to God and prayed for those appointed in authority over them.
1Tim 2.1f
” First of all then I urge that entreaties
and prayers,
petitions
and thanksgivings
be made on behalf of all men,
for kings
and all in authority
so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity”We are advised not to become entangled with worldly matters
2Tim 2.4
“No soldier on active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier”Quote We are advised not to become entangled with worldly matters
And isn't “war” a very worldly matter?Hi,
Jehovahs witnesses teach that Jesus was not physically raised from the dead but only spiritually. Did Thomas not put his fingers in the wounds on the battered physical body of Jesus?So we're done talking about war?
Quote Hi,
Jehovahs witnesses teach that Jesus was not physically raised from the dead but only spiritually. Did Thomas not put his fingers in the wounds on the battered physical body of Jesus?What does the Bible say?
Hi david,
The bible says he was raised from the dead. That would seem to mean that the body he died in was raised back to life.Ok, I've researched this subject. Here are some scriptures:
Many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)
ILLUSTRATION: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS]
(At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1, 4; Lu 24:15, 16.
“Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Caps added)
It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, WHY DID THEY NOT AT FIRST RECOGNIZE HIM? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16)
After Jesus’ resurrection MARY MISTOOK HIM for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15)
On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE ON THAT OCCASION FOR HIM TO SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THEIR MIDST EVEN THOUGH THE DOORS WERE LOCKED? (John 20:24-29) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)
Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity.
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course, discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the cour
age to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”
(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? The reason they knew it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; YET, THE RESURRECTED JESUS ALWAYS APPEARED FULLY CLOTHED.—John 20:6, 7.
Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.
WHERE DID HIS BODY GO?
The physical body of Jesus Christ was not allowed to decay into dust as did the bodies of Moses and David, men who were used to foreshadow Christ. (De 34:5, 6; Ac 13:35, 36; 2:27, 31) When his disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, his body doubtless having been disintegrated without passing through the process of decaying.—Joh 20:2-9; Lu 24:3-6.
Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.But since the apostle THOMAS was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.
While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. And remember, at other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.DAVID
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