Looking into Jehovah Witnesses?

[k4c]

I'm looking for a fellowship of believers of like minded faith but I'm having a hard time finding one. What are your thoughts regarding the Jehovah Witness faith?

I have never been to a JW service so I don't know too much about them. Should I look into fellowshiping with them and serving God through them?

What are your thoughts?

[david]

Hello K4c
While I'm certain that Satan will argue with what I am to say, because he doesn't want people to know about Jehovah, I'll simply say this:

If you have the right heart and you really are searching for the truth, it will find you.

Secondly, if you would like to know about Jehovah's Witnesses as a people, go to a kingdom hall. Meet the people. (There's likely to be between sixty and a hundred people there, unless you live in a small town.) I would suggest around 10:00 in the morning. Bring a Bible. We use it extensively. (If you want to look like you belong there and don't want as much attention, wear a suit.) If you want attention, wear jeans. There will be a Bible discourse that lasts 45 minutes. Then, there will be a Bible discussion (question and answer part) based on the current Watchtower article that lasts an hour. No collections are ever taken. People will come up to you and talk to you. First, they will ask where you're from. I think that is a clever way of determining if you are a Witness or not. If you say you're from so and so (which they recognize as a congregation), then you're a Witness. If you say: Taylor street, then you're not. (Of course, if you're not wearing a suit, or are covered in tatoos or have purple hair, this also will tell people that you're not a Witness.) Once that's determined, they'll ask how or why you came to be there.
If you want to learn what they believe, ask for a Bible study. Or, ask for a broshure that explains what they believe. Or, ask someone when and where the next convention in that area is.
But the easiest way to learn about Jehovah's Witnesses is the approach most people opt for. Sit on your couch. Wait a few months. Even though I don't know where you live, I'm going to make a prediction: There will be a knock on your door. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20)

Not everyone will be happy to see you studying the Bible or associating with Jehovah's Witnesses, but do not let that stop you. Your eternal future depends on your getting to know God and doing his will despite any opposition. —Matthew 5:10-12; John 17:3.

david.

[k4c]

How would they respond if they learned that I was in politics, military, law enforcment or security?

Could someone be a member of the JW's is they were part of one of the above?

[david]

Hi K4c.
First, I'd imagine out of curiosity, they would ask how it is possible to be a a military politician policeman security guard.

As for law enforcement, most of Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid employment that would require them to carry a weapon, since they do not want to incur bloodguilt by taking a life. (Exodus 20:13; Matthew 26:51, 52) It should be noted, however, that there are many people employed by law-enforcement agencies who do not have to carry any kind of weapon, and in some countries most policemen do not carry guns.

As for politics, Satan is the world's ruler. (Matthew 4:8-10; John 14:30; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 6:12) We look to God's government, his heavenly kingdom for the solutions to man's problems. Jehovah's Witnesses are therefore not involved in politics. They are “no part of the world,” even as Jesus was no part of the world. (John 15:19)

As for the military, here are some scriptures to consider:
Matt. 26:52: “Jesus said to him: ‘Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.’” (Could there have been any higher cause for which to fight than to safeguard the Son of God? Yet, Jesus here indicated that those disciples were not to resort to weapons of physical warfare.)
Isa. 2:2-4: “It must occur in the final part of the days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains . . . And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Individuals out of all nations must personally decide what course they will pursue. Those who have heeded Jehovah’s judgment give evidence that he is their God.)
2 Cor. 10:3, 4: “Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.” (Paul here states that he never resorted to fleshly weapons, such as trickery, high-sounding language, or carnal weapons, to protect the congregation against false teachings.)
Luke 6:27, 28: “I [Jesus Christ] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you.”

So in answer to your question, they would respond very kindly. But if you wanted to have a Bible discussion with them, they would reason with you on these scritpures and many others in order to see how God feels about such things. It is his thoughts that matter. They might ask questions like: “If Jesus were here, on earth, would he be a politician (remembering that they tried to make him a king and he withdrew) or would he be involved in the military?” Regardless of what they said, they would point to the Bible and let it speak to you.

I hope this helps.

david.

[k4c]

I believe there is a literal kingdom coming where there will be no more wars, death, pain or sorrow. It will be a time when all weapons will be made into farming tools becasue there will be no need for them in this coming kingdom of peace and blessing in God's presence. I don't believe that time has come yet. Jesus says that until that time comes there will be wars and nations will rise against nation. Within this world system are two apposing forces influenced good or evil. All throughout history we see godly kings ruling in God's behalf. We also see evil kings ruling against the commandments of God. This does not make all ruling systems in this world evil.

God has established a rightous ruling system within this present evil age to keep evil in somewhat check until the stone cut out of the mountain comes to destroy all apposing kingdoms. The whole first part of Romans speaks of this godly system ordained by God to serve God in rightousness. It even goes on to say that those who are not called into this type of servanthood need to support it with our money.

Romans 1:1-6 Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. For the policeman does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear him. So if you don't want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well. The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose. Obey the laws, then, for two reasons: first, to keep from being punished, and second, just because you know you should. Pay your taxes too, for these same two reasons. For government workers need to be paid so that they can keep on doing God's work, serving you.

If this system was evil then we who pay their wages to do this work would be judged with their sin just as King David was judged for the murder when in fact he didn't do the actual murdering.

We truly need to be careful how we persecute and reject God's people in His governing system of righeousness.

While Jesus was with us on earth He was the beginning of this coming kingdom. At the time of Jesus' ministry there was no need for his disciples to have sword, money or new clothing. But towards the end of Jesus' work He made some very clear statements regarding how these things were to change. There was coming a time when His followers would need a sword, money and so on.

Luke 22:35-36 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you were without money, duffle bag, or extra clothing, how did you get along?'' “Fine,'' they replied. “But now,'' he said, “take a duffle bag if you have one, and your money. And if you don't have a sword, better sell your clothes and buy one!

This is what has been stopping me from seeking fellowship with JWs. I believe much of what they teach but they are missing the understanding in this area.

Until they come to understand this truth and the truth of a future kingdom then I don't see how I can fellowship with them.

[david]

Hi K4c,
Here are some thoughts on what you've said. If God chooses to support a human king, then of course that king should be supported. But which king is he supporting today K4C? Is he supporting all of them? Is he fighting against himself with the wars? God does not fight against himself. Back then, there was the nation of Israel. It was clear who God’s people were. Today, all ruling systems are influenced by the ruler of this world. Satan is referred to as the “ruler of the world,” a few times in Scripture. We are told he is the ‘god of this system of things,’ and that he is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” Satan offered Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.” How could such an offer be a real “temptation,” if it was not Satan’s to give? I’m not saying that good can’t be found in governments, just as some good can be found in most people. But the fact remains that God will destroy this political system at armageddon. And there is a reason for that.

John 14:30: “[Jesus said:] The ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me.” (This ruler obviously is not Jehovah God, whose will Jesus always performs loyally. This “ruler of the world” must be “the wicked one,” Satan the Devil, in whose power “the whole world is lying,” as stated at 1 John 5:19. Although mankind lives on a planet that belongs to God, the world that is made up of those who are not Jehovah’s obedient servants is under Satan’s control because such people obey him. Those who wholeheartedly submit to Jehovah’s rulership are not part of that world. Compare 2 Corinthians 4:4.)
Rev. 13:2: “The dragon [Satan the Devil] gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority.” (Comparison of the description of this “beast” with Daniel 7 indicates that it represents human government, not just one such but the global system of political rulership. That Satan is its ruler agrees with Luke 4:5-7, also with Revelation 16:14, 16, which depicts demonic utterances as leading the rulers of all the earth to war against God at Armageddon. Satan’s rulership of the world is one that is merely tolerated by God until His appointed time arrives for settling the issue of universal sovereignty.)

I agree with everything you say about Romans 1:1-6. Policemen are a needed thing. Yes, we are to pay our taxes and follow the laws of the land. We are to pay Caesars things to Caesar and God’s things to God. But when the two conflict, we must ‘obey God as ruler, rather than men,’ the scripture says.

WEAPONS:
Christians today should not instruct others personally as to what stand they must take on issues related to Christian neutrality. Each one must make his own conscientious decisions in line with his understanding of Bible principles.—Galatians 6:4, 5.
Here, however are some things to consider:
When Jesus asked his disciples to equip themselves with SWORDS, it was not for protection. In fact, it led to his stating the principle: “All those who take the sword will perish by the sword.”—Matthew 26:51, 52; Luke 22:36-38.
“But now let the one that has a purse take it up, likewise also a food pouch,” he says, “and let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one. For I tell you that this which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, ‘And he was reckoned with lawless ones.’ For that which concerns me is having an accomplishment. Then they said: “LORD, LOOK! HERE ARE TWO SWORDS.” He said to them: IT IS ENOUGH.”
“It is enough,” he answers. A couple of swords were enough. Having the swords with them would permit Jesus to teach them a vital lesson when Peter used his sword to take someone’s ear off. NOTE JESUS’ WORDS: “All those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” Did Jesus want his disciples to perish? No.
So Jesus’ words at Luke 22:36, “Let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one,” would not indicate that his disciples were about to enter into a hazardous life. Rather, he desired to have a sword available among his followers on that night in order to demonstrate clearly that, though they would come into circumstances that could easily provoke armed resistance, he did not intend to resort to the sword but would give himself up voluntarily in harmony with God’s will. Thus, when Peter did react and try to put up armed resistance, lopping off the ear of Malchus, Jesus ordered him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Mt 26:52; Joh 18:10, 11) Certainly, Peter’s sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would undoubtedly have ‘perished by the sword.’ (Mt 26:47) More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have failed, being completely contrary to Jehovah God’s purpose. (Mt 26:53, 54) As it was, later that day Jesus could plainly state to Pilate: “If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”—Joh 18:36.
How did first-century Christians apply Jesus’ words?

Note the following quotations.

“A careful review of all the information available [shows] that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity.

“The behavior of the [early] Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers.”—Our World Through the Ages.

True Christians, therefore, follow the words of this principal and do not arm themselves so as to harm their fellowman. (Compare Isaiah 2:4.) They follow the Bible’s advice at Romans 12:17-19: “Return evil for evil to no one. . . . If possible, as far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.’”
The Greek word Paul uses for “evil” (kakoś) could also mean “destructive, damaging.” Hence, Christians are to keep from all thought of vindictively damaging or harming another person.
“A slave of the Lord does not need to fight.”–2 Timothy 2:24
(While the context shows that Paul was here referring to verbal fights, the original language word rendered “fight” (mákhesthai) is generally associated with armed or hand-to-hand combat.)
Christians of the first century would later recall Jesus’ fervent prayer to Jehovah, in which he said of his disciples: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” They would remember Jesus’ explanatory answer to Pontius Pilate: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (John 17:14, 16; 18:36) In those days, Jewish factions were fighting one another, both verbally and by shedding blood. But Jesus’ disciples did not get mixed up in those revolutionary campaigns. For some 30 years they waited in Jerusalem. Then they obeyed Jesus’ prophetic sign by “fleeing to the mountains.” Their neutral stance and their flight resulted in their salvation.—Matthew 24:15, 16.

NOT PACIFISM
This is not pacifism, a policy of nonresistance under any circumstance. For example, Christians look forward to Armageddon, God’s war to end wickedness. As well, at Exodus 22:2, 3, a situation is described in which a thief is fatally struck while entering someone’s home during the day. Such a defensive measure was considered tantamount to murder, since the thief could have been identified and brought to justice. But during the night,
it would be difficult for the householder to see an intruder and ascertain his intentions. Therefore, the person killing an intruder in the dark was considered guiltless. Thus, the Bible does not uphold impetuous attempts at self-defense. In not supporting pacifism, however, the Bible indicates that there is a time to defend oneself. Christians may ward off physically aggressive attacks against themselves, their families, or others in genuine need of defense. (A woman threatened with rape should scream and use any means at her disposal to resist intercourse.—Deuteronomy 22:23-27) But they would not initiate an attack, nor would they physically retaliate to save their possessions. They would not carry weapons in anticipation of such an attack; rather, they endeavor to “live peaceably.”—2 Corinthians 13:11
The warfare Jehovah’s Witnesses wage is strictly spiritual. Paul wrote: “The weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”—2 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Timothy 1:18.

David.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Where does it say God only supports certain righteous civil leaders? It does not and you have stepped again outside of scripture to make such a claim.
Rom 13.1
“..There is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God”

Can you name any human leader in the bible that God had no part in establishing? What has changed?

Men continue to create their own doctrines apart from the scriptures

He respected and submitted to very human authority however unrighteous. We follow him and not men.

[david]

Quote

Where does it say God only supports certain righteous civil leaders? It does not and you have stepped again outside of scripture to make such a claim.

I didn't say this and neither do I believe it. In fact I believe quite the opposite, that he does not support the politicians of this world under Satan's control. Perhaps you were confused by my opening paragraph. I was answering K4c, talking about how God obviously was supporting the Israelite Nation at that time. The questions that followed should have made clear what my meaning was. If I was unclear, sorry.

To “support” is different then to allow. He has allowed governments to come and go for the benefit of mankind. But are you saying that he actively supports certain nations Nick?

Please elaborate.

david.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
God is in ultimate control of the whole of the events of the universe and we are mere participants with the opportunity of eternal reconciliation with God during our few years on earth. Israel was politically under “unrighteous” and oppressive domination at the time of Christ but Jesus paid it no mind. He kingdom is not of this world.

[NickHassan]

Here is a forum on the JWs.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
People often seem to think that because many on this site have been shown by scriptural study that

Jesus is the Son of God and not God Himself

we must be JWs or even Unitarians.

Not so.

We are simply bible based in our teachings and the bible clearly shows these matters to be so.

[malcolm ferris]

Yes, why is it the peaple feel compelled to put a christian in a neat little box with a neat little label. Isn't the name Christian (follower of Christ) enough?

[NickHassan]

Hi Malcolm,
They cannot judge you unless they can put you in that box.

Insecure people hate freedom and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.

[david]

Quote

Yes, why is it the peaple feel compelled to put a christian in a neat little box with a neat little label. Isn't the name Christian (follower of Christ) enough?

Since this thread is about Jehovah's Witnesses, I feel compelled to mention their name.
We are followers of Christ. And Christ was called the “faithful witness,” and also the “faithful and true witness.” ” (John 18:37; Revelation 3:14) Of whom was he a witness? Who did he witness about?

The Scriptural account that Jehovah’s Witnesses draw on for their name is in the 43rd chapter of Isaiah. There the world scene is viewed as a courtroom drama: The gods of the nations are invited to bring forth their witnesses to prove their claimed cases of righteousness or to hear the witnesses for Jehovah’s side and acknowledge the truth. Jehovah there declares to his people:
“Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.”—Isaiah 43:10, 11, American Standard Version.

Jehovah God had witnesses on earth during the thousands of years before Jesus was born. After Hebrews chapter 11 lists some of those men of faith, Hebrews 12:1 says:
: “So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.”
Jesus said before Pontius Pilate:: “For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.”

We are Jehovah's Christian Witnesses.
“YOU will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8) With those parting words, Jesus commissioned his disciples to be witnesses. But witnesses of whom? “Witnesses of me,” said Jesus. Do these words mean that they were not to be witnesses of Jehovah? Far from it!

Actually, Jesus’ disciples were given an unprecedented privilege—that of being witnesses of both Jehovah and Jesus. As faithful Jews, Jesus’ early disciples were already witnesses of Jehovah. (Isa. 43:10-12) But now they were to witness also concerning Jesus’ vital role in sanctifying Jehovah’s name by means of His Messianic Kingdom. Their thus bearing witness to Jesus was with Jehovah’s glory in view. (Rom. 16:25-27; Phil. 2:9-11)

HERE'S an interesting point:
While the apostles of Christ were still alive, the name Christian was distinctive and specific. (1 Pet. 4:16) All who professed to be Christians but whose beliefs or conduct belied their claim were expelled from the Christian community. However, as Jesus had foretold, after the death of the apostles Satan sowed seeds that produced imitation Christians. These counterfeits also claimed the name Christian. (Matt. 13:24, 25, 37-39)

2 PETER 2:1-2
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these THE WAY OF THE TRUTH WILL BE SPOKEN OF ABUSIVELY.”

We wish to separate ourselves from those who claim to be Christian but who belie those claims by their actions.

david

[malcolm ferris]

From what I understand, the original name from which the word Jehovah is derived consists of 4 consonants which are said to be either
YHWH or JHVH
From this there are at least two versions of the name claimed
Yahweh and Jehovah.
The name Jesus means literally YHWH (or JHVH) is saviour.
The name Jehovah (or Yahweh or whatever other variation you prefer) is used as part of a compound name to express God in at least 9 different variations that I am aware of including
YHWH (or JHVH) JIREH – the Lord is my provider
YHWH (or JHVH) GAAL – the Lord our redeemer
– SHALOM – the Lord my peace
– TSIDKENU – the Lord who sanctifies you
– RAPHA – the Lord that heals
– NISSI – the Lord my banner
– RAAH – the Lord my shepherd
– SHAMMAH – the Lord is present
All of these compound redemptive titles of God were fulfilled by God in Jesus Christ
And when Paul the faithful Jewish follower of Jehovah saw the manifestation of God in a Pillar of Fire – recognising it to be Jehovah – cried out Lord who are you? the answer was?
Now I know that the translation is disputed and some say it says sir who are you?
But the original greek word is the same that is used to denote the Lord God Almighty on numerous other occasions, only on this occasion is it changed to read sir.
Why? I say because it suits their theology to interpret it this way.
As I understand it God has one name He uses in His relationship to men that is the name of His only begotten son Jesus.
Whatever you do in word or deed do it all in the name of Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
David has given more explanation of his views here on military service here.

[david]

Thanks Nick. There were some things mentioned in this thread that I was forgetting to mention in the “christians who kill” thread.

[Cubes]

Hi David,

Shall we talk about some of the other differences between JWs and other Christians?

Is it true that JWs do not dance because of this verse?

Mar 6:22 And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give [it] thee.

If so, have JWs not missed the point of why John the Baptist was actually sentenced to death?

[NickHassan]

Yes cubes,
Are their lives dominated by the rules of men?

[david]

Quote

Hi David, Shall we talk about some of the other differences between JWs and other Christians? Is it true that JWs do not dance because of this verse? Mar 6:22 And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give [it] thee. If so, have JWs not missed the point of why John the Baptist was actually sentenced to death?

I know you are trying to make a point. I'm just not clear on what it is.

[Author]

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