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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,06:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2007,04:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2007,18:54) Hi Tim2,
This is facile logic
” Hence, if God is called Lord, it means that Jesus is God.”
Grow up.
NHIf YHWH says there is one Lord and one name and he is that One Lord and One Name then yes Jesus is God, YHWH in the flesh.
Zech 14:9
And the LORD, (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be *one LORD*, and *his name one*.
Hi W,
Who will rule in the millenium?Ps 2
“1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
God through Christ and those in Christ
NHYes the Father is in Christ, Zech speaks of YHWH/Jesus feet standing on the mount.
He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
All power and authority is given to him.
He will rule.
Tell me NH, If The Father gave Jesus “All Power and authority”, then does the Father have any?
Of course he does because they are One God.
You and I will only see YHWH, Jesus sitting in the throne in the millineum.
Hi W,
You should listen to Thomas.
He knew when he saw Jesus he also saw the Father in him.Ps 2
“2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, AND against his anointed, saying, .Christ is the anointed one.
Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2007,05:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2007,17:21) Not3 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.LOL
Where is his rebuke to them. These scriptures affirm his Deity and equality.
1.What ever God does he does.
2. God shows him *all things* that they may marvel.
3. God raises the dead, so does the Yeshua.
4. God dosnt judge but all judgment is the Sons.
5. They should honour Yeshua even as they honour God.
Yeshua was almost taunting them with his answers that were obviously claims to his equality with God.
Ye blind guides who strain at a knat and swallow a camel.
WJ,Haven't you ever heard the saying, “A son of a Physician is a Physician”?
Of course Jesus does what his Father does. Does not even an earthly father show his son what he does and how to accomplish it? So our heavenly Father shows Jesus what he does and enables him to do the very same things. This is what these verses teach clearly.
Not3No these verses teach that Yeshua has equality with God.
Tell you what, show me a recorded incident anywhere in the Bible where any other son of God or Apostle or Prophet or Teacher or Evangilist or anointed believer ever did a work or miracle of God and said “I did it” because I saw the Father do it?
Show me one who takes credit for God working through them, without saying I didnt do this but God did this.
Show me where God does all things by any other than Jesus.
But Jesus not only claims he does it, but recieves worship and dosnt reject it nor correct them.
You dont serve the same Jesus I do obviously.
But I am praying for you!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,08:48) Hi W,
You should listen to Thomas.
He knew when he saw Jesus he also saw the Father in him.Ps 2
“2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, AND against his anointed, saying, .Christ is the anointed one.
Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “
NHThere you go with inference that you so adamently preach against.
No Thomas said *unto him*, “My Lord and My God”.
Did John make a mistake when he wrote “Thomas said Unto him”? He didnt say “Unto Them”,
Inference is the Glue that holds together false doctrine!
Hi W,
You must realise that now our abilities come from our God through our Lord Jesus
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2007,09:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,08:48) Hi W,
You should listen to Thomas.
He knew when he saw Jesus he also saw the Father in him.Ps 2
“2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, AND against his anointed, saying, .Christ is the anointed one.
Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “
NHThere you go with inference that you so adamently preach against.
No Thomas said *unto him*, “My Lord and My God”.
Did John make a mistake when he wrote “Thomas said Unto him”? He didnt say “Unto Them”,
Inference is the Glue that holds together false doctrine!
Hi W,
God was not alongside the vessel of Christ
but within that vessel that was addressed.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,09:28) Hi W,
You must realise that now our abilities come from our God through our Lord Jesus
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
NHIsnt that amazing NH.
I can do all things through Jesus.
I can also do all things through God.
Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world.
NH Who is the he that is in us?
Hi w,
The same Spirit of God from God and through Jesus in us can do the works of God.
There is no trinity.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,10:25) Hi w,
The same Spirit of God from God and through Jesus in us can do the works of God.
There is no trinity.
NHIt really was a simple question requireing only a simple answer.
But, of course you dont have an answer.
Hi w,
What is it that you do not like about simple biblical truth?
Perhaps that it grates with your foundational doctrines?
The real foundational doctrines are written in Heb 6.No trinity there
or anywhere.I have been accused of using too much “logic” in my reasoning about Jesus (and the who and what) he is.
Didn't God give us our logic for a reason? Would he gift us with abilities to logic and then give us truths that defy logic? Unfair, I say!
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2007,16:05) I have been accused of using too much “logic” in my reasoning about Jesus (and the who and what) he is. Didn't God give us our logic for a reason? Would he gift us with abilities to logic and then give us truths that defy logic? Unfair, I say!
Not3Jesus said…
Jn 6:
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?If any one of us would have been standing there hearing these words, we would not have understood his meaning.
Human Logic would not and cannot understand how a Jew could eat his flesh and drink his blood.
After Jesus said these words…
Jn 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then Jesus asked the disciples…
6:67
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?And Peter said…
Jn 6:68
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.Do you believe that God still has many things to say to the Church and his people that may be hard to hear?
I do. Sometimes we will not understand certain truths because they go against our human logic.
Some things God dosnt want us to know. For if we knew everything then we would not need to trust him.
It is faith that is needed in approaching the word of God.
And the Spirit of truth will help us say with Peter…
*Lord you have the words of eternal life*.
Blessings
Wow. WJ, thank you for this post! You are so right on many levels. I'll ponder this as I head out to work…
Hi W,
Good post,
But you say
“*Lord you have the words of eternal life*.”
Now abide in those words and ahbor the teachings of men from outside of those words.
He never spoke of any trinity.I confess that if something offends my ablility to reason and use logic, at first I toss it out. After all, God said to Abraham, “….come let us reason together…..” So I figure that God gave us our brains so that we would use them.
I also understand that man's wisdom is foolishness to God, and without faith it is impossible to please God.
I do believe that words have meaning. I do believe that God would not intentionally confuse us (he wants us to know him, what good would it do to confuse us?) How are we to make sense of the world we live in if we do not use logic?
Hi Is 1.18,
You asked in another thread.
“NH, I'm still waiting for you to tell me whether or not you hold Yeshua's and Paul's application of logic to scripture against them. And if not, why is it wrong for Yeshua's followers to do likewise?Can you please address this for us?”
Greek logic cannot define God.
Greek logic cannot be used teach what is not revealed.Commonsense is useful and necessary.
But Scripture is the basis
of what we believe
not logic.It seems that you are trying to create a false dichotomy between logic and common sense, when most would see these as mutually inclusive.
Is logic from God or man?
And you still haven't answer the first part of the question, which was this:
Was Yeshua's and Paul's application of logic to scripture wrong?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 30 2007,10:50) It seems that you are trying to create a false dichotomy between logic and common sense, when most would see these as mutually inclusive. Is logic from God or man?
Hi Is 1.18,
Go to the home of human wisdom and see it's derived follies.Acts 17
19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.”
Paul used logic. He became all things to all men to draw them to the eternal gospel of Christ.
1Cor 9
17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.18What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.”
To find truth we cannot blinker ourselves with weak human wisdom.
Neither can we try to understand scripture with just logic but fuirst with other scripture.
Scripture is of God and thus is bigger and broader and more powerful.
Commonsense is the aspect of wisdom that even children can understand.
The gospel is for children.
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