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Well since you all you non-Trinitarians love to quote 1 Corinthians 8:6 as proof that there is only one Lord, and the Lord is clearly God in this verse, then yes, every time Lord is used in Revelation, or in the New Testament for that matter, it is referring to God, otherwise there would be two Lords, which would contradict 1 Corinthians 8:6. So Jesus is the Lord, and the Lord is God. This means Jesus is God.
*******************
Good grief. This makes no sense. The verse doesn't say that the Lord is “clearly” God. The verse says there is one God AND one Lord (Jesus). This is a clear-cut scripture, Tim. Good luck convincing anyone who is using their logic that this means anything other than what it clearly says.Just ask your self why did not John or Jesus not address his statement, which would be a serious act of Idolatry?
*************Curious you should ask this. John nor Jesus had anything to say contrary to Thomas because they knew he didn't mean to call him the Almighty God. Otherwise, Jesus would have corrected him like he corrected everyone else who tried to call him (or make him equal to) God.
Where is the Son Begotten before his birth. And since he was the Word/God as you say and as I believe, if he was God how could he be a son until he was born.
****************************According to your doctrine, WJ, Jesus wasn't a “true” Son anyway, so it doesn't matter if he was pre-existent or not!
Jesus was not a new individual, a combination of his mother and father like a “true” son is – he is an incarnation of God Almighty.
God comes to earth in the form of a man. Isn't that what you believe? So God changed (which he doesn't do), and became a man (which he is not), and even changed his name! He took on a new identity and only pretended he knew certain things while others were clouded by his half-flesh (man). Goodness, what a web we weave.
Not3in1 said:
Quote If Thomas is confessing (as you hope he is) that Jesus is both that same One God AND Lord – then Thomas is confused! Note that he is the only one of the followers that did this, too. Hm???
I replied:Quote Then the twenty four elders were confused as well, for they said, “Worthy are you, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power.” Revelation 4:11. So God is the Lord, and the Lord is God
Not3 replied:Quote So every time the “Lord” is mentioned in Rev. it is referring to God?
I replied:Quote Yes, every time Lord is used in Revelation, or in the New Testament for that matter, it is referring to God, otherwise there would be two Lords, which would contradict 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Not3 replied:Quote Good grief. This makes no sense. The verse doesn't say that the Lord is “clearly” God. The verse says there is one God AND one Lord (Jesus). This is a clear-cut scripture, Tim. Good luck convincing anyone who is using their logic that this means anything other than what it clearly says.
Not3in1,You asked me if Lord in Revelation always refers to God. I said yes, because there is only one Lord. 1 Corinthians 8:6. You, Nick, and all the other non-trinitarians use 1 Corinthians 8:6 as proof that only the Father is God, because there is only one God. Well by that same logic there is only one Lord, Jesus, and from Revelation 11:17, among other places, we know that the Lord is God.
Tim
Hi tim2,
Then perhaps you should read again 1Cor 8 more carefully.
You will see FOR US written.
Then you need to decide if that includes you.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 26 2007,13:10) Just ask your self why did not John or Jesus not address his statement, which would be a serious act of Idolatry?
*************Curious you should ask this. John nor Jesus had anything to say contrary to Thomas because they knew he didn't mean to call him the Almighty God. Otherwise, Jesus would have corrected him like he corrected everyone else who tried to call him (or make him equal to) God.
Not3Boy talk about reading into a scripture what you want, this is the worse stretch I have ever seen!
Show me one scripture where Jesus corrected them for saying he was equal to God!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2007,11:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2007,10:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2007,09:59) Hi W,
Do you not know God sent His beloved monogenes Son into the world?
He did not come but the Word who was with him begotten from him, was sent.
John testifed that he had seen the Word, the Son of God.1jn 1
' 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
We should fellowship with THEM
NHYou say…
Quote
John testifed that he had seen the Word, the Son of God.No, John testified that he saw the Word/God not son of God that was with God and was God.
So again was he a son or the Word/God like John says.
You said the Word “Was” God. Now you are retracting and saying the Word was the son of God.
Hi W,
Do you think verse 1
does not align with what John said in verse 3?
hmmm
NHOf course it does. It also lines up with verse 2.
1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.1:3
All things were made by him; and *without him *was not any thing made that was made.He is the crerator too.
The Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit were present at creation.
You still havnt answered the question.
You said that the “Word was God”, who was made flesh and ceased to be God.
Then you said the Son of God partook of human flesh.
Did the Son stop being the Son also?
You seem confused, was the Word the Son or God or God?
Not3
5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.LOL
Where is his rebuke to them. These scriptures affirm his Deity and equality.
1.What ever God does he does.
2. God shows him *all things* that they may marvel.
3. God raises the dead, so does the Yeshua.
4. God dosnt judge but all judgment is the Sons.
5. They should honour Yeshua even as they honour God.
Yeshua was almost taunting them with his answers that were obviously claims to his equality with God.
Ye blind guides who strain at a knat and swallow a camel.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 26 2007,13:14) Where is the Son Begotten before his birth. And since he was the Word/God as you say and as I believe, if he was God how could he be a son until he was born.
****************************According to your doctrine, WJ, Jesus wasn't a “true” Son anyway, so it doesn't matter if he was pre-existent or not!
Jesus was not a new individual, a combination of his mother and father like a “true” son is – he is an incarnation of God Almighty.
God comes to earth in the form of a man. Isn't that what you believe? So God changed (which he doesn't do), and became a man (which he is not), and even changed his name! He took on a new identity and only pretended he knew certain things while others were clouded by his half-flesh (man). Goodness, what a web we weave.
Not3No offence, but I think you are confused about what I believe.
You deny your own defeinition of “True Son” .
For a true Son like you believe Jesus is, is one with a human father and mother concieved by human sperm.
You say…
Quote
he is an incarnation of God Almighty.Incarnation;
the embodiment of a deity or spirit in some earthly form capitalized : the union of divinity with humanity in Jesus ChristDeity; the rank or essential nature of a god, Synonyms; Divinity, God, Supreme being.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/deity
So before you promote “Incarnation” you should at least know what it means.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 26 2007,16:21) Tim, you are really dancing now, aren't you? Lord, lord, LORD, and God, god, Almighty God.
Not3in1,I've come to expect such taunting answers from Nick, but not from you. I was trying to discuss with you the meaning of Lord in the Bible. I've shown that it applies to Jesus and to God in the New Testament. I've also shown that according to the New Testament, there is only one Lord, Jesus. Hence, if God is called Lord, it means that Jesus is God.
Will you please just discuss this with me instead of taunting?
Thanks,
TimQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2007,18:54) Hi Tim2,
This is facile logic
” Hence, if God is called Lord, it means that Jesus is God.”
Grow up.
NHIf YHWH says there is one Lord and one name and he is that One Lord and One Name then yes Jesus is God, YHWH in the flesh.
Zech 14:9
And the LORD, (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be *one LORD*, and *his name one*.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2007,17:21) Not3 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.LOL
Where is his rebuke to them. These scriptures affirm his Deity and equality.
1.What ever God does he does.
2. God shows him *all things* that they may marvel.
3. God raises the dead, so does the Yeshua.
4. God dosnt judge but all judgment is the Sons.
5. They should honour Yeshua even as they honour God.
Yeshua was almost taunting them with his answers that were obviously claims to his equality with God.
Ye blind guides who strain at a knat and swallow a camel.
WJ,Haven't you ever heard the saying, “A son of a Physician is a Physician”?
Of course Jesus does what his Father does. Does not even an earthly father show his son what he does and how to accomplish it? So our heavenly Father shows Jesus what he does and enables him to do the very same things. This is what these verses teach clearly.
You say…Quote
he is an incarnation of God Almighty.
Incarnation;
the embodiment of a deity or spirit in some earthly form capitalized : the union of divinity with humanity in Jesus Christ*********************
Incarnation is taking on bodily form.
Jesus was conceived of God and Mary.
Jesus is a part of God (divinity) and Mary (human). MIXED. A COMBINATION. A TRUE SON.I've come to expect such taunting answers from Nick, but not from you. I was trying to discuss with you the meaning of Lord in the Bible. I've shown that it applies to Jesus and to God in the New Testament. I've also shown that according to the New Testament, there is only one Lord, Jesus. Hence, if God is called Lord, it means that Jesus is God.
************************Sorry, Tim. I guess I've developed a bit of thick skin around here, and it's really not needed, nor is it the fruit of the spirit; please accept my apology.
The thing is, there is only ONE “Lord Jesus” – the term “Lord” can be used in a variety of ways.
The “Lord” Jesus is not the ONE “LORD” God.
Paul takes great efforts to separate the two.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2007,04:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2007,18:54) Hi Tim2,
This is facile logic
” Hence, if God is called Lord, it means that Jesus is God.”
Grow up.
NHIf YHWH says there is one Lord and one name and he is that One Lord and One Name then yes Jesus is God, YHWH in the flesh.
Zech 14:9
And the LORD, (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be *one LORD*, and *his name one*.
Hi W,
Who will rule in the millenium?Ps 2
“1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
God through Christ and those in Christ
Hi Not3in1,
Thanks. I'm glad you didn't mean it. I do the same thing too, as you should know, so accept my apologies too. I would really like it if all of us could stop with the taunting, ahem, cough … cough … Nick … cough.
I understand the difference you are proposing between Lord and LORD. There is such a difference in the Old Testament, between Adonai and YHWH, although I believe Adonai is used almost entirely of YHWH. But in the New Testament, there's only one word, kyrios. Some times it means sir, other times lord, and other times, as you say, LORD, a transliteration of YHWH.
So the first thing to note is that Paul does use it in the last sense, of YHWH, regarding Jesus in Romans 10:9-13. We must confess Kyrios Jesus, the same is Kyrious of all, and whoever will call on the name of KYRIOS will be saved. This is a quotation from Joel 2:32, where it says YHWH.
But my main point is that every non-Trinitarian here uses 1 Corinthians 8:6 to say that the one God is the Father, so Jesus can't be God. But by that same logic the one Lord is Jesus, so the Father can't be Lord. But the Father is Lord of heaven and earth. Matthew 11:25. Likewise, Jesus is God. John 1:1.
Tim
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