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Hi,
The greeks loved to argue for entertainment.
Acts 17
“18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) “
The Greeks also sought to see the Master.
Jn 12
“20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.”
The greek influence entered the kingdom and brought it's own plague. Being based on human wisdom it does it does include essential commonsense but we see it expressed here in a similar way as some of the Jews looked at tradition, as equal to scripture.
The JWs rely heavily on it to try an show Christ is an angel and to deny the existence of the punishment for sin.
Trinitarians use it to bridge their confusion with Christ being called God and so they teach that he must be God Himself lest they are accused of polytheism.
It is useful but not equal to scripture.
And Paul used his God given ability to reason to explain some things about the Christ:
(Acts 17:2-3) “So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to YOU.””
Romans 12:1 says that we have “power of reason.”
The ability to put one and one together is an ability that we should use wisely. You cannot shake your head and say, we have no idea what one and one equals when math or logic or reason tells us it has always equalled 2. “But it doesn't say that” you say. Well, math dictates that it equals 2.
Math or logic is no substitute for scripture, obviously. We don't want to go beyond the things written, obviously. But some things, lead us to one of two conclusions and we must let the evidence of the entire scrptures point us in the right direction.Nick, if someone said: “You argue against logic, therefore you are unlogical,” this would be a fallacy.
And the ability to catch erros in thinking is one that is based firmly in logic, the ability to think correctly.I agree, it is useful, but not equal to scripture.
And, for the record, I think that everything about the trinity is illogical and goes against normal everyday thinking, common sense and reason.
of course logic is true… you have to use it to even (attempt) to argue against it… consider the law of non-contradition which simply says that a thing cannot both be and not be in the same time and in the same relationship… eg “A” cannot be both “A” and “~A” at the same time and in the same relationship…
so suppose someone tries to tell me that the logic of the law of non-contradiction (call it N) isn't true… what have they just done? well they have appealed to the very law of logic they set out to disagree with!! they are saying that N is false… but how can N be false and at the same time be true? And IF it is either true or false, then we have appealed to logic in order to prove that a proposition is true or false…. specifically we have appealed to the law of non contradiction. If things that are what they are, and therefore cannot be at the same time the very opposite of what they are, then the law of contradiction stands as an absolute no-negotiable foundation of all rational thought… to try to negate it means that I could say something like “its true that God exists and, oh, btw, God doesn't exist”…. absurd!!! Instead, God says to be reasonable… to think rightly…. to discern good from evil, right from wrong, and if there is no logic in the universe, no principle by which to ascertain the difference between the 2 then all rationality is lost!! It would be to say that I am am saved and not saved, that Jesus died on the cross and He did not die on the cross….
so don't be frightened of words like “logic”…. I suppose this might be another one of those rather silly so called “arguments that tries to say “since the word `logic' does not appear in the Bible therefore its unbiblical” … but this is simply nonsense… 2+2=4 (or isn't in the bible…. the word “gravity” isn't in the bible… why, in fact the word “bible” isn't even in the bible… so should we therefore strike the word “bible” from our vocabularies because the word does not appear in the bible!?!!? ridiculous… absurd… and certainly the fact that there are only or will only ever be 66 books in the Bible is not in the Bible either… does that make any of these things less true or untrue? Of course not….
(Isaiah 1:18) “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.”
And Jesus is said to be the epitome of logic as the disciple John “borrowed” the word “Logos” from the secular philosophers and “Christianized” it by saying that ancient Greeks and their conception of the divine mind, that the divine rationality behind this word and it's concept was actually to be found in Christ Jesus…..
“To speak of the Word (logos) in relation to the beginning of creation would make sense to both Jews and Greeks. In some schools of Greek thought, the universe is kosmos, an ordered place, and what lies behind the universe and orders it is reason (logos). —IVP New Testament Commentary Series, The
“What does John mean by “the Word”? Theologians and philosophers, both Jews and Greeks, used the term word in a variety of ways. The Greek term is logos. In the Hebrew language of the Old Testament, “the Word” is described as an agent of creation (Psalm 33:6), the source of God's message to his people through the prophets (Hosea 1:2), and God's law, his standard of holiness (Psalm 119:11).
The Greeks used “the Word” in two ways. It could mean a person's thoughts or reason, or it might refer to a person's speech, the expression of thoughts. As a philosophical term, logos conveyed the rational principle that governed the universe, even the creative energy that generated the universe.
In both the Jewish and Greek conceptions, logos conveyed the idea of beginnings—the world began through the Word (see Genesis 1:3ff., where the expression “God said” occurs repeatedly). John may have had these ideas in mind, but his description shows clearly that he spoke of Jesus as a human being he knew and loved (see especially 1:14), who was at the same time the Creator of the universe, the ultimate revelation of God, and also the living picture of God's holiness, the one in whom “all things hold together” (Colossians 1:17 niv). Jesus as the logos reveals God's mind to us.
To strict Jewish readers, “the Word was God” sounded like blasphemy. Strongly monotheistic, they found it difficult to even speak about God without running the danger of offending the One and Only. Certainly God “spoke” words, but to say “the Word was God” equated the two realities; the Hebrew mind resisted any such thinking about God. One of the most compelling reasons to believe the doctrine of the Trinity comes from the fact that it was revealed through a people most likely to reject it outright. In a world populated by many gods, it took the tough-minded Hebrews to clarify the revelation of God's oneness expressed through Three-in-oneness. We humbly bow before the one God, but we do not presume to easily comprehend his essential being.
—Life Application Bible CommentarySo, whether one believes the Trinity or not, it seems that people here get a little to hung up on words instead of the concepts behind them… just because the word “logic” isn't in the Bible, it hardly follows from this that the Bible isn't logical… in fact it is….
blessings,
KenLogic defends what it can see, touch, hear, smell, taste, and understand. Logic tells us that spring comes before summer; a child is first conceived before it is born, a God who says he is One is mathmatically ONE.
We look to nature to help us in our logic. We understand God by his creation. It is right and natural to do this.
Nothing in all creation, including the written Word of God, describes what this Trinity is. As Nick says – you have to make a quilt of scriptures (cutting and sewing) to make out the doctrine. My good Lord never taught it to anyone – not even once!
I don't care how many words you use to eloquently state your Trinitarian position………it goes against logic. And if it doesn't appear logical – our minds go into Star Trek mode. Thus, the Trinity.
Hi not3,
Yes human logic is bound by the visible universe.
It reflects the visible order of God
There are deeper matters.
Matt 16
'1The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.2He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Ah…….good passage, Nick. Thank you.
Yes, deeper things. Sometimes we miss the basics though, and they are clouded by not using the reason and logic that God gave us! Then, and only then, can we move on to the “deeper” matters.
Hi not3,
Commonsense is vital.
Ecc7
“16Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself ?”But we cannot apply logic to scripture and develop doctrine. Scripture shows scripture.
Heavenly matters are not encompassed and we can only work with what we are given.Logic to scripture…..well, we must to understand. See, this is where so many walk off the main road and follow the little paths along the way.
When scripture says something like: God is One. We must use our logic to understand that scripture is telling us that God is a SINGLE person. Otherwise, you develop doctrine like the Trinity.
So, I feel that you must apply logic to the scriptures SO THAT you do not develop unscriptural doctrines.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,07:02) Hi E,
Logic seems to suggest that if the trinity is true it is written?
Where?
ah well… can't expect you to admit y7ou are wrong about anything now can we Nick…. too bad really….anyways….
logic teaches us the Trinity is true because of the concept that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God having varied aspects to their relationship to creation, and yet the Bible says there is one God… now if I were to say that there is only one God, and that there are also, in the same respect and in the same relationship, there are 3 Gods, then I would be defying logic… however the Trinity does not defy or contradict logic because the doctrine does not say that there is one God and that there are three God's in the same sense and same relationship…. God is one in being or in essence, yet 3 in person… therefore God is not both 1 and 3 in the same time and in the same relationship…. so disagree with the Trinity all you like, the doctrine itself is not a violation of any of the laws of logic…. in fact… to make sense of the fact that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God and yet there is only one God, the doctrine of the Trinity is necessary in order for the Bible to not contradict itself… and ultimately, all Arian, Unitarian, Binitarian or whatever other heretical doctrine that denies the Trinity wants to be called, are all in fact illogical and irrational…..
and Nick, logic seems to suggest that if the Trinity is true, it is written, its just that it is not necessary for a word (the word “Trinity” for example) to be written in order to be logical…
your continued attempt at what you apparently take to be “clever” questions that are supposed to trip people up are all simply sad attempts for you to go beyond where you ought to be going by attempting to ask questions that happen to think are clever, and that, since you apparently think that since your mind cannot answer them, no one else's can either… this is a very arrogant thing to do my friend….
blessings,
KenHi e,
You say
'logic teaches us the Trinity is true'
Thank you.
Just as I was saying it is based on foolish human logic.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 24 2007,07:03) Logic defends what it can see, touch, hear, smell, taste, and understand. Logic tells us that spring comes before summer; a child is first conceived before it is born, a God who says he is One is mathmatically ONE. We look to nature to help us in our logic. We understand God by his creation. It is right and natural to do this.
Nothing in all creation, including the written Word of God, describes what this Trinity is. As Nick says – you have to make a quilt of scriptures (cutting and sewing) to make out the doctrine. My good Lord never taught it to anyone – not even once!
I don't care how many words you use to eloquently state your Trinitarian position………it goes against logic. And if it doesn't appear logical – our minds go into Star Trek mode. Thus, the Trinity.
well apparently neither you nor Nick are yet understanding the nature of logic… it is NOT based on the 5 senses at all…. tell me…. please… where I can touch, smell, hear, feel or see the law of non-contradiction, the law of the excluded middle, the genetic fallacy……., the complex question…… etc etc… now we can see examples of these errors… but the concepts of the errors concerned arre in the abstract reasoning faculties…. and just like God, who is spirit… who can be neither seen, touched, felt, heard o r smelt… unless He chooses to allow these things to happened in a special way, a way that a human could never naturally engage in being able to do… just as God is real and yet a non-physical entity… so too are things like abstract reasoning, the existence of other minds, the existence of the past etc, so too does logic, or logical principles exist….show me one verse anywhere in the bible that says “God is [/b]mathematically one”…. if you can't then you fall to your own “exegetical” principles…. for if the phrase “God is mathematically one” does not appear in the Bible, it is not a bible doctrine…..
we look to nature to look for the Trinity you say….!?!? good point… one good example is the sun… we have the sun, its rays and its warmth….. we have, in plants… the root shoot and leaf… we have in water, ice water ands steam…. there is trinity everywhere… so thanks for allowing this principle to be addressed, though how you can say this and also jump on your “if the exact words don't appear in the Bible then the concept isn't biblical….” I guess you invoke that theory only when it is convenient ehhh?
and the trinity is indeed explained in the Bible… what!?!? you think it was made up in whole cloth and thousands of years of Christians just haven't been as smart as you or something? please….. give me a break… disagree with the Trinitarians if you like, but don't be patronizing and think that no one knew how to study and interpret the Bible until you came along…?
give me a break…..and your Lord may not have taught the doctrine of the Trinity to you even once, but I can tell you that the Lord Jesus taught it in numerous places…. by saying to be baptized int he name (singular) of the father, son and holy spirit…. by ascribing deity to himself and by saying he would send another (allos) one like himself, a Paraclete… a comforter to be with us…. and since Jesus was a person, therefore, unless you want to say that Jesus lied, when Jesus said he would send another one like himself to his people, you can bet that he did exactly that….
in order for you to say that the Trinity isn't logical, you have to do something calling for a bit more effort on your part… what?
am I sdupposed to say it isn't biblical just because you say so? Of course not, just as you shouldn't just accept it ju8st because I say so… I expect you to try and test my words just as I will do for you, Nick's, t8's… etc…. and I will indeed try yours…. so please… point out to be, specifically and exactly, what logical form or rule the doctrine of the Trinity violates… if you can't then the only Christian – like attitude to do is to apologize and retract your statement….blessings,
KenQuote (Not3in1 @ April 24 2007,07:22) Logic to scripture…..well, we must to understand. See, this is where so many walk off the main road and follow the little paths along the way. When scripture says something like: God is One. We must use our logic to understand that scripture is telling us that God is a SINGLE person. Otherwise, you develop doctrine like the Trinity.
So, I feel that you must apply logic to the scriptures SO THAT you do not develop unscriptural doctrines.
actually you are wrong again… the biblical languages have different words for the word “one”, and some words for God, like elohim for instance, indicate a plurality…. a good concept we can appeal to today to point this out is that we may say that there is one bunch of grapes when in reality, in this one “bunch” we have many grapes… or we may speak of one bunch of bananas… its one bunch containing many bananas… so plurality of unity is exactly why we have the Bible saying “let us go down and make man in our image” or “let us go down and confuse man's language”…. echad…… unity in pluralityso it is rather you who is not bing faithful to the Scriptures and developing unbiblical doctrines by denying the trinity
blessings,
KenHi e,
Jesus never taught about any trinity.
There is no greater teacher.
Scripture reveals scripture.
Human wisdom is of little use.
Better to obey the Lord Jesus and abide in the Word.Quote (epistemaniac @ April 24 2007,15:26) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 24 2007,07:03) Logic defends what it can see, touch, hear, smell, taste, and understand. Logic tells us that spring comes before summer; a child is first conceived before it is born, a God who says he is One is mathmatically ONE. We look to nature to help us in our logic. We understand God by his creation. It is right and natural to do this.
Nothing in all creation, including the written Word of God, describes what this Trinity is. As Nick says – you have to make a quilt of scriptures (cutting and sewing) to make out the doctrine. My good Lord never taught it to anyone – not even once!
I don't care how many words you use to eloquently state your Trinitarian position………it goes against logic. And if it doesn't appear logical – our minds go into Star Trek mode. Thus, the Trinity.
well apparently neither you nor Nick are yet understanding the nature of logic… it is NOT based on the 5 senses at all…. tell me…. please… where I can touch, smell, hear, feel or see the law of non-contradiction, the law of the excluded middle, the genetic fallacy……., the complex question…… etc etc… now we can see examples of these errors… but the concepts of the errors concerned arre in the abstract reasoning faculties…. and just like God, who is spirit… who can be neither seen, touched, felt, heard o r smelt… unless He chooses to allow these things to happened in a special way, a way that a human could never naturally engage in being able to do… just as God is real and yet a non-physical entity… so too are things like abstract reasoning, the existence of other minds, the existence of the past etc, so too does logic, or logical principles exist….show me one verse anywhere in the bible that says “God is [/b]mathematically one”…. if you can't then you fall to your own “exegetical” principles…. for if the phrase “God is mathematically one” does not appear in the Bible, it is not a bible doctrine…..
we look to nature to look for the Trinity you say….!?!? good point… one good example is the sun… we have the sun, its rays and its warmth….. we have, in plants… the root shoot and leaf… we have in water, ice water ands steam…. there is trinity everywhere… so thanks for allowing this principle to be addressed, though how you can say this and also jump on your “if the exact words don't appear in the Bible then the concept isn't biblical….” I guess you invoke that theory only when it is convenient ehhh?
and the trinity is indeed explained in the Bible… what!?!? you think it was made up in whole cloth and thousands of years of Christians just haven't been as smart as you or something? please….. give me a break… disagree with the Trinitarians if you like, but don't be patronizing and think that no one knew how to study and interpret the Bible until you came along…?
give me a break…..and your Lord may not have taught the doctrine of the Trinity to you even once, but I can tell you that the Lord Jesus taught it in numerous places…. by saying to be baptized int he name (singular) of the father, son and holy spirit…. by ascribing deity to himself and by saying he would send another (allos) one like himself, a Paraclete… a comforter to be with us…. and since Jesus was a person, therefore, unless you want to say that Jesus lied, when Jesus said he would send another one like himself to his people, you can bet that he did exactly that….
in order for you to say that the Trinity isn't logical, you have to do something calling for a bit more effort on your part… what?
am I sdupposed to say it isn't biblical just because you say so? Of course not, just as you shouldn't just accept it ju8st because I say so… I expect you to try and test my words just as I will do for you, Nick's, t8's… etc…. and I will indeed try yours…. so please… point out to be, specifically and exactly, what logical form or rule the doctrine of the Trinity violates… if you can't then the only Christian – like attitude to do is to apologize and retract your statement….blessings,
Ken
epistemaniacExcellent points!
Quote (epistemaniac @ April 24 2007,15:26) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 24 2007,07:03) Logic defends what it can see, touch, hear, smell, taste, and understand. Logic tells us that spring comes before summer; a child is first conceived before it is born, a God who says he is One is mathmatically ONE. We look to nature to help us in our logic. We understand God by his creation. It is right and natural to do this.
Nothing in all creation, including the written Word of God, describes what this Trinity is. As Nick says – you have to make a quilt of scriptures (cutting and sewing) to make out the doctrine. My good Lord never taught it to anyone – not even once!
I don't care how many words you use to eloquently state your Trinitarian position………it goes against logic. And if it doesn't appear logical – our minds go into Star Trek mode. Thus, the Trinity.
well apparently neither you nor Nick are yet understanding the nature of logic… it is NOT based on the 5 senses at all…. tell me…. please… where I can touch, smell, hear, feel or see the law of non-contradiction, the law of the excluded middle, the genetic fallacy……., the complex question…… etc etc…
Yes, this is an excellent point. You could go even further and ask which of the five senses was responsibe for the generation of this statement:“Logic defends what it can see, touch, hear, smell, taste, and understand.”
Quote (epistemaniac @ April 24 2007,07:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,07:02) Hi E,
Logic seems to suggest that if the trinity is true it is written?
Where?
ah well… can't expect you to admit y7ou are wrong about anything now can we Nick…. too bad really….anyways….
logic teaches us the Trinity is true because of the concept that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God having varied aspects to their relationship to creation, and yet the Bible says there is one God… now if I were to say that there is only one God, and that there are also, in the same respect and in the same relationship, there are 3 Gods, then I would be defying logic… however the Trinity does not defy or contradict logic because the doctrine does not say that there is one God and that there are three God's in the same sense and same relationship…. God is one in being or in essence, yet 3 in person… therefore God is not both 1 and 3 in the same time and in the same relationship…. so disagree with the Trinity all you like, the doctrine itself is not a violation of any of the laws of logic…. in fact… to make sense of the fact that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God and yet there is only one God, the doctrine of the Trinity is necessary in order for the Bible to not contradict itself… and ultimately, all Arian, Unitarian, Binitarian or whatever other heretical doctrine that denies the Trinity wants to be called, are all in fact illogical and irrational…..
and Nick, logic seems to suggest that if the Trinity is true, it is written, its just that it is not necessary for a word (the word “Trinity” for example) to be written in order to be logical…
your continued attempt at what you apparently take to be “clever” questions that are supposed to trip people up are all simply sad attempts for you to go beyond where you ought to be going by attempting to ask questions that happen to think are clever, and that, since you apparently think that since your mind cannot answer them, no one else's can either… this is a very arrogant thing to do my friend….
blessings,
Ken
The WISDOM OF MAN is what to God?
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