Lightenup and david only

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 15 2013,12:52)

Quote I see no real evidence that Jehovah (the Father) is called the son. Well, David, perhaps I have not made myself clear but I agree that Jehovah the Father is not called the Son, only Jesus is the Son of God. I am saying that Jehovah the Father gave his name to His Son…Do you know any fathers and sons that have the same name as each other. Usually there is a Sr. or a Jr. after their name in our day, or like Charles I or Charles II. I am not saying that John Sr. is also John Jr. or Charles I is also Charles II, for instance. I am saying that there are two who are called Jehovah, the Senior gave His name to His Junior so to speak. Understand? Read this here: John 17 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me.

So, the way you understand John 17, if understood that way, would have to make you ask: where is any proof of this at all?

There are other ways of understanding this scripture.

If you are saying that Jehovah gave his name (Jehovah) to Jesus, why didn't anyone know this? Did he use that name for himself? Other than a small group of conspiracy theorists (I'm poisoning the well with ad hominems here) believe in the Mar yah thing. I googled mar yah and the top hit was a website called “the mar yah deception.” I didn't read it. Me studying this would take a couple weeks if I actually wanted to get to the bottom of it. Perhaps you could explain it simply.

I should just ask: if Jehovah gave the name Jehovah to Jesus, why, when asking who Jesus was, did everyone above answer: “the son” or “the son of god,” rather than say “Jehovah”?

Why does it seem to almost everyone on the planet that Jesus was never called Jehovah while on earth?

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ May 14 2013,21:46)

For me, asking if jesus is also Jehovah, seems very similar to asking: “Is the son also the father”. As my post made clear, Jesus was recognized as the “son” (of God) by a wide variety of persons.  He was known as the “son of God,” by those around him, and by those who accused him. Similarly, 1000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures, “Jehovah” is called “God.”   And, while Jehovah is only called the father a few times, the father is called “God” many times.   Jehovah is definitely “the God,” and the God is also described as the father.   So, my point, while I know it didn't directly attack your position, was just to show that: 1. Nowhere in scripture is Jehovah actually called the son (unlike where he is called the father) and 2. “Jesus” was known by everyone as the “son” (of God), and in comparison, I don't see any scriptures where Jehovah's identity is described as the “son.”

David,
In the OT, the Word of Jehovah who came in a vision to Abram (a vision is something seen and not just heard), tells Abram that He is Jehovah. Gen 15.

Jesus is the Word of God who was with God in the beginning and who was God.

Jehovah identifies Himself as God.

In the NT, the Greek manuscripts do not call God, the Father, the Son, or anyone 'Jehovah,' they use kyrios translated as LORD/Lord/lord. This can be confusing because kyrios is also used for men who are masters/lords. So even if Jesus was named Jehovah before creation and before flesh, you won't see it in the English translations because Jehovah is not an English word. Some Bibles put it in the OT and NT but most don't.

In the NT, the Aramaic manuscripts do not call God or anyone Jehovah either, they use MRYA apparently.

This is what is claimed
“Marya” is never used to identify anyone but hwhy.”

http://www.peshitta.org/forum….tart=45
Go to the 8th post down.

[Lightenup]

Quote

I should just ask: if Jehovah gave the name Jehovah to Jesus, why, when asking who Jesus was, did everyone above answer: “the son” or “the son of god,” rather than say “Jehovah”?

He is called 'the Lord' quite frequently. The word “Lord” is used for the word Jehovah as well as man.

[david]

http://www.natzraya.org/Articles/The%20Mar-Yah%20Deception/The%20Mar-Yah%20Deception.html

I haven't read any of this website, only spent 20 seconds skimming it, but these people seem to think this mar yah idea is a deception, and if you want to look at the critical side of this idea, I'm sure they present it.

I can't even remember what mar yah or marya means. I should probably look at this. Is there some sort of website that presents a few pages at the most that explain it? (Not looking for a forum or debate section but looking for a simplified explanation for someone who knows nothing about it)

[david]

Quote

In the OT, the Word of Jehovah who came in a vision to Abram (a vision is something seen and not just heard), tells Abram that He is Jehovah. Gen 15. Jesus is the Word of God who was with God in the beginning and who was God.

There are places in the bible where its clear that when it says “word,” it's just referring to messages. There does not have to be a hidden meaning in the phrase the “word of Jehovah.” It can just mean the word of Jehovah.

Jesus is called the “word,” because he was Jehovah's prime spokesman, his prime messenger. He was sent by God, to convey thoughts, just as a word does.

“For this I have been born, for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.”–Jesus.

Jesus came into the world to, among other things, convey a message, deliver an idea, express a thought…as any “word” does.

[Lightenup]

Here David, this is something you can read regarding MRYA:

http://www.scribd.com/doc….eshittO

[Lightenup]

Quote

Jesus is called the “word,” because he was Jehovah's prime spokesman, his prime messenger.  He was sent by God, to convey thoughts, just as a word does.

The spokesperson for a group is still a part of the group and speaks for the group which they themselves are a part of. Jesus speaks for Himself as well as the unity which He is representing of Him and the Father.

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2013,02:52)

Quote Jesus is called the “word,” because he was Jehovah's prime spokesman, his prime messenger.  He was sent by God, to convey thoughts, just as a word does.   The spokesperson for a group is still a part of the group and speaks for the group which they themselves is a part of. Jesus speaks for Himself as well as the unity which He is representing of Him and the Father.

Ok.

I was just pointing out that sometimes there isn't a hidden meaning. Sometimes, the word of Jehovah is just the message or thoughts or commands of Jehovah.

[Lightenup]

Yes, that is true. In Gen 15 that doesn't seem to be the case though.

[david]

Quote

The Word of Jehovah plainly says that He is Jehovah in Gen 15.

Perhaps it's time to expand on this. I'm not sure it's plain.

[Lightenup]

The Word of the LORD in Gen 15 is something/someone who can be seen because He came to Abram in a vision and clearly identified Himself as Jehovah.

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,16:40)

The Word of the LORD in Gen 15 is something/someone who can be seen because He came to Abram in a vision and clearly identified Himself as Jehovah.

“But, look! the word of Jehovah to him was in these words: “This…..” (Verse 4)

Sometimes words are just words.

It's clear that it is Jehovah conveying a message to him through a vision. And he used “words.”

If I said: “the word of the king is: set them free,” you would understand that I just mean the “message” or “proclamation” or “command” of the king.

Why here, does the word of Jehovah have to be anything more than the word of Jehovah?

Why does it have to be a secret hidden code?

Or, if I said: “the word of the king has has been sent to all and received by all.” Would this mean the word of the king is a person?

LU, if you come to visit me, send word by means of email before you come.
People sometimes say things like: “Your word means little.” What does it mean?

Or, what do you think this means:

“the word of Jehovah to him was in these words:”?

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,16:40)

The Word of the LORD in Gen 15 is something/someone who can be seen because He came to Abram in a vision and clearly identified Himself as Jehovah.

“The Word of Jehovah plainly says that He is Jehovah in Gen 15.”–LU,

Maybe if you quoted this and said which bible it was from, I would see better why you say this.  I could check them all, but I get the feeling none of them will have the “word of Jehovah” plainly saying “I'm Jehovah.”

If I said: “the rules of t8 state that we can't get more than so many tiles.”  And then a sentence later, I said: “t8 says someone with X tiles will be banished.” Here we have:

1. The “rules of t8” stating it.
2. T8 stating it.

Therefore, the rules of t8 must be t8 himself.  

This is essentially your argument, is it not?

I could just as easily have said the “word” or “words” of t8, rather than rules.

When you look at those two sentences, do the “rules of t8” plainly state that he is t8?
If not, why not?

David

[Lightenup]

David,
The thing about Gen 15 is that the one that Abram sees in the vision never says anything about 'the word of Jehovah says…' He just starts talking to him and throughout this vision, the one that Abram is seeing, says that He is Jehovah. In this passage below, I have put the words from the one in the vision that Abram saw in red and Abram's response in blue and also I have added 'the only begotten theos' in parenthesis after it says 'the word of Jehovah' to help you read it the way that I understand it. Here is the passage:

American Standard Version
Gen 15
1After these things the word of Jehovah (the only begotten theos) came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2And Abram said, O Lord Jehovah, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and he that shall be possessor of my house is Eliezer of Damascus? 3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4And, behold, the word of Jehovah (the only begotten theos) came unto him, saying, This man shall not be thine heir; But he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.  5And he brought him forth abroad, and said,Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them:  and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.  6And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness. 7And he said unto him, I am Jehovah that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

8And he said, O Lord Jehovah, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it? 9And he said unto him, Take me a heifer three years old, and a she-goat three years old, and a ram three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon. 10And he took him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each half over against the other: but the birds divided he not. 11And the birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, and Abram drove them away.

12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13And he said unto Abram, 4Know of a surety that thy seed shall be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15But thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.

17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold, a smoking furnace, and a flaming torch that passed between these pieces.

18In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite, 20and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim, 21and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.

[david]

Maybe it's the word “vision.” A vision is a sight or scene, or message superimposed upon a persons mind while he is awake. I don't believe that a vision has to necessarily involve sight, as if abram saw “the word of Jehovah.”

Personification is often used in the bible.

[david]

“After these things the word of Jehovah came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, O Lord Jehovah, what….”

Ok, this does not really seem to be proof of anything.

Example:
After these things, the word of the president came to me, the commander, by email, saying: “attack that country.” And I said: “O, president, this is a bad idea….”

Question:
Is it clear that the word of the president is the president? If not, why? What is different from this example to the scripture?

[david]

Quote (david @ May 23 2013,13:24)

“After these things the word of Jehovah came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, O Lord Jehovah, what….” Ok, this does not really seem to be proof of anything. Example: After these things, the word of the president came to me, the commander, by email, saying: “attack that country.”  And I said: “O, president, this is a bad idea….” Question: Is it clear that the word of the president is the president?  If not, why?  What is different from this example to the scripture?

The thing about Gen 15 is that the one that Abram sees in the vision never says anything about 'the word of Jehovah says…'

Well,

“After these things the WORD OF JEHOVAH came unto Abram in a vision, SAYING…

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ May 22 2013,21:17)

Maybe it's the word “vision.”  A vision is a sight or scene, or message superimposed upon a persons mind while he is awake.  I don't believe that a vision has to necessarily involve sight, as if abram saw “the word of Jehovah.” Personification is often used in the bible.

Well, do you agree that a person, Jesus, is named “The Word of God?” If so, personification is not necessarily applicable in Gen 15.

Perhaps we should look up other instances in the Bible where something or someone came to someone in a vision and compare. I'll do a quick search and put up what I find in the next post.

[Lightenup]

Here is the result of my search for verses that contain the words “in a vision.”

Quote

Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep … In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on people as they slumber in their beds … Acts 9:10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord … … The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!” “Yes, Lord,” he answered. … The Lord spoke to him in a vision, calling, “Ananias!” “Yes, Lord!” he replied. … Acts 10:3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. … … About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius … Acts 9:12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and … In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight … Genesis 15:1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a … After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward … Acts 11:5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I … … I was in the town of Joppa, at prayer: and falling into a deep sleep, I saw in a vision a vessel like a great cloth let down from heaven, and it came down to me … Acts 18:9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be … One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. … Daniel 2:19 During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in … During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then … That night the secret was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then … Psalm 89:19 Once you spoke in a vision, to your faithful people … Once you spoke in a vision, to your faithful people you said: “I have bestowed strength on a warrior; I have raised up a young man from among the people. … Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a … … called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision. … Numbers 12:6 he said, “Listen to my words: “When there is a … … And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. … Genesis 46:2 And God spoke to Israel in a vision at night and said … And God spoke to Israel in a vision at night and said, “Jacob! Jacob!” “Here I am,” he replied. … During the night God spoke to him in a vision. “Jacob! … Zechariah 1:8 During the night I had a vision, and there before me … … In a vision during the night, I saw a man sitting on a red horse that was standing among some myrtle trees in a small valley. Behind … Daniel 8:2 In my vision I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the … … And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was … Ezekiel 11:24 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the exiles … … And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God to the exiles in Chaldea. So the vision that I had seen left me. … Ezekiel 40:2 In visions of God he took me to the land of Israel … … In a vision from God he took me to the land of Israel and set me down on a very high mountain. From there I could see toward the … Daniel 9:21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had … … yes, while I was still praying, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen previously in a vision, was approaching me in my state of extreme weariness, around the time … Ezekiel 8:3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me … … took me by the hair. Then the Spirit lifted me up into the sky and transported me to Jerusalem in a vision from God. I was taken to … 1 Kings 22:17 Then Micaiah answered, “I saw all Israel scattered … … Then Micaiah told him, “In a vision I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd. And the LORD said … 2 Chronicles 18:16 Then Micaiah answered, “I saw all Israel … … Then Micaiah told him, “In a vision I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd. And the LORD said … 1 Kings 9:2 the LORD appeared to him a second time, as he had … … The Lord came to him again in a vision, as he had done at Gibeon; …. … 2 Chronicles 7:12 the LORD appeared to him at night and said: “I … … Now the Lord came to Solomon in a vision by night, and said to him, I have given ear to your prayer, and have taken this place for myself as a house where … Genesis 26:2 The LORD appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down … … And the Lord came to him in a vision and said, Do not go down to Egypt; keep in the land of which I will give you knowledge … Genesis 48:3 Jacob said to Joseph, “God Almighty appeared to me at … … And Jacob said to Joseph, God, the Ruler of all, came to me in a vision at Luz in the land of Canaan, and gave me his blessing … 2 Chronicles 1:7 That night God appeared to Solomon and said to … … In that night God came to Solomon in a vision, and said to him, Say what I am to give you. … Genesis 26:24 That night the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am … … That night the Lord came to him in a vision, and said, I am the God of your father Abraham: have no fear for I am with you, blessing you, and your seed will be … Habakkuk 1:1 The prophecy that Habakkuk the prophet received. … This is the message that the prophet Habakkuk received in a vision. … 1 Kings 11:9 The LORD became angry with Solomon because his heart … … And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had twice come to him in a vision … Jeremiah 25:15 This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to … … So the LORD, the God of Israel, spoke to me in a vision. …

from: http://biblez.com/search100.php?q=%22in+a+vision%22

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ May 22 2013,21:24)

“After these things the word of Jehovah came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, O Lord Jehovah, what….” Ok, this does not really seem to be proof of anything. Example: After these things, the word of the president came to me, the commander, by email, saying: “attack that country.”  And I said: “O, president, this is a bad idea….” Question: Is it clear that the word of the president is the president?  If not, why?  What is different from this example to the scripture?

David,
Allow me to tweak your example:

After these things, the Word of the president came to me, the commander, by video, saying: “attack that country.” And I responded: “O, president, this is a bad idea….”

If there is a person named “The Word of the President” who is the President and with the President from the beginning, then it is likely that a person appears in the video named 'The Word of the President.'

If there is no mention of anyone at anytime being 'the Word' in the Bible, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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