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T,
Not one word you quoted contradicted anything I said. In fact is the current events of that time, a news report. Either Moses is reporting on his own activities or a scribe is. There is no reason for angel to tell the writer what was going on because they were an eye witness to the event.
There are events where that the only human witness is Moses and he either write those down in the third person or told the scribe who then write them down. They could also have come from an angel but there was no real need.
AT THE LEAST YOU HAVE ONE MAN (YOURSELF) THAT BELIEVES IN HIMSELF ,
T,
AT THE LEAST YOU HAVE ONE MAN (YOURSELF) THAT BELIEVES IN HIMSELF ,
Are you just saying random things?
we have discussed many things, and it seems that you do not believe much from scriptures, and this is in direct opposition to me for I believe the scriptures, as being the very truth of God ,but not in one verse bUT as a whole.
My answer to you is based on our entire experience with each other’s exchange
@t8
If God made all things through the Word/Jesus Christ, then God was speaking to his Word & son by whom he made the universe.
Colossians 1:16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.It takes a minimum of two to invoke the word “us” and these two scriptures are sufficient to see that two were involved in the creation of the universe. God made it through his son as scripture states. God is the creator and the son his agent.
I would like to add some thing on this ;
Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
BUT THEN WHAT WOULD THE “OUR IMAGE “MEAN ? I UNDERSTAND IT THIS WAY ,THAT OUR IMAGE STAND FOR ALL THE HEAVENLY WAY IT IS LAY OUT IN HEAVEN ;SO THAT ADAM WOULD BE LIKE GOD ON EARTH AND EVE HIS COMPAGNON WOULD BE LIKE THE SON OF GOD AND THEIR CHILDREN LIKE THE ANGELS ECT…. BUT THIS WENT WRONG WHEN ADAM SINNED ;
FOR NOW JESUS SAID TO PRAY SO THAT ; Mt 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
Mt 6:10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.“LIKE IN HEAVEN”
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;SCRIPTURES SAYS THAT JESUS HIS THE IMAGE OF GOD HIS FATHER ;SO ADAM CANNOT BE THE IMAGE OF GOD ;BUT ACCORDING TO THIS VERSE ADAM WOULD BE THE IMAGE OF THE IMAGE OF GOD IN A OTHER WAY ADAM IS THE IMAGE OF THE SON OF GOD WHO HIS THE IMAGE OF GOD ;
IN THIS WAY IT MAKES MORE SENS WHAT JOHN SAYS IN JOHN1;10
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
T,
we have discussed many things, and it seems that you do not believe much from scriptures, and this is in direct opposition to me for I believe the scriptures, as being the very truth of God ,but not in one verse bUT as a whole.
My answer to you is based on our entire experience with each other’s exchange
Perhaps you believe that, but you failed to address my points and that benefits no one.
If you truly do believe then why do you appear to be so fearful of having you your doctrine tested?
Hi Lightenup
As to whether Christ is ‘eternal’ I’d have to look at some more passages…The first being John 1:1…As you say He was there in the beginning…Thing is, Almighty God does not have a beginning so we are talking about the beginning or entry of something or someone else…A ‘Firstborn of all Creation’ would seem to fit this scenario better…
In Micah 5, the prophet states… 2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”
Other translators use the word origins in place of goings forth…
In 1 Timothy 6, Paul writes this: 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time -He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
Other translators also actually use God in place of He, since it in His presence that Paul gives Timothy this solemn charge…God is the ‘blessed and only Sovereign’ which also lines up with a statement made by Christ in John 17: 3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”
IMO there is only one true, immortal God…He doesn’t share that distinction with anyone else, not even His first born who is the image of his father in every way…They are also ‘one’, as Jesus states, and we are supposed to be following that pattern as true believers…
In the same chapter he says, 22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
If we are one as the Father and Son are, then we will be of one spirit with them but only in purpose and procedure, not power and authority…That now rest with Christ till the end of the age. But if you read 1 Corinthians 15, you’ll note that Christ will be handing the Kingdom back over to the Father when all has been accomplished.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
I think you will agree, the only thing that really matters is making it through the narrow gate and being part of all this…It is to that end we should share the Scriptures and our faith in hopes of a closer walk in the Spirit and a pleasing obedience to God through Jesus, our Lord…
As always, thanks for your time…GSI think you will agree, the only thing that really
matters is making it through the narrow gate
and being part of all this…It is to that end we
should share the Scriptures and our faith in
hopes of a closer walk in the Spirit and a
pleasing obedience to God through Jesus, our
Lord…Amen
~~~~~~~~~~~
GrasshopperK
Perhaps you believe that, but you failed to address my points and that benefits no one.
If you truly do believe then why do you appear to be so fearful of having you your doctrine tested?
why do i have to test God’s word ? you are the one that want and do test it in every way you can so that you come to believe yourself in stead of God ,and have all your opinions to make the case ;I have told you I believe the scriptures as they have been written but what whole scriptures do not support i do not support either ,what is wrong with that ?
T,
It is clear to see that you do not test your own teachings because you are not ready to answer a point. You seek instead to divert the conversation.
I pointed out that Scripture does not say that Moses wrote the book of Genesis and you have not presented Scripture says he did. Instead you chose to do other things including accusing me. From your actions it appears you believe he did but have no real evidence that teaching is true.
I believe it started earlier than that as I previously made clear we are missing context that would give us the intent of the writer so the best we can do is the words of Genesis in a way that is true. Some interpret it by saying that since they Jesus was there it follows that God was speaking of both himself and the Messiah. I think that a relatively new teaching though I do not know when it was first recorded as existing.
To whomever it may concern,
Genesis 34:9New English Translation (NET Bible)
9 Intermarry with us. Let us marry your daughters, and take our daughters as wives for yourselves.
Is this individual saying each and every one of the sons of Israel plan to marry Canaanite women and have their daughters marry those men they spoke to in attempt to deceive them?
To whomever it might concern.
http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/monotheism/genesis-plurals.html
Six Options
Presently, commentators itemize six explanations for what I call “the Genesis Plurals.” They include:
1) God is speaking to members of his heavenly council.
2) God is speaking to himself, in self-deliberation (“Let us do this” = “I’ve decided I will do this”).
3) God is using the “royal we,” as ancient monarchs did when issuing divine decrees. This occurs in the Qur’an when Allah speaks as “we”: “To Jesus, son of Mary, We gave clear evidence of the truth” [2:87].
4) The plural pronouns match the plural noun Elohim (God) in what some call a “plural of majesty.” Earthly monarchs do this all the time.
5) The plurals are a vestige of polytheistic belief that the Israelites borrowed from their pagan neighbors. God is speaking to a pantheon of fellow deities.
6) God the Father is speaking to other members of the Trinity: either to God the Spirit or to God the (preincarnate) Son, or both.
@K
Six Options
Presently, commentators itemize six explanations for what I call “the Genesis Plurals.” They include:
1) God is speaking to members of his heavenly council.
2) God is speaking to himself, in self-deliberation (“Let us do this” = “I’ve decided I will do this”).
3) God is using the “royal we,” as ancient monarchs did when issuing divine decrees. This occurs in the Qur’an when Allah speaks as “we”: “To Jesus, son of Mary, We gave clear evidence of the truth” [2:87].
4) The plural pronouns match the plural noun Elohim (God) in what some call a “plural of majesty.” Earthly monarchs do this all the time.
5) The plurals are a vestige of polytheistic belief that the Israelites borrowed from their pagan neighbors. God is speaking to a pantheon of fellow deities.
6) God the Father is speaking to other members of the Trinity: either to God the Spirit or to God the (preincarnate) Son, or both.
see what you do ;but you do not say what you believe right ?yes
see i say and believe it is # 1 the “US”
so what are you saying kerwin ?
@ K
T,
It is clear to see that you do not test your own teachings because you are not ready to answer a point. You seek instead to divert the conversation.
I pointed out that Scripture does not say that Moses wrote the book of Genesis and you have not presented Scripture says he did. Instead you chose to do other things including accusing me. From your actions it appears you believe he did but have no real evidence that teaching is true.
you can see how you are thinking ;you are thinking starting from your point of view ,men’s view;
I do not see it that way ;see nothing says that it is not Moses that as written those books (scrolls) for they are part of the five first books ,
this is why we are always in different views you in a men’s view and i in the scriptural view
Hi and thank you for your thoughtful response. I really do appreciate a fruitful discussion on HN and so I am going to take time with your post to comment my thoughts back to you. Knowing the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and loving them with my whole heart and loving others as myself is my goal. I fall short of this perfect love, I sense that we all do, but that is what I am going for. Making it through the gate is certainly an important reward to desire and receive. If I understand it correctly, knowing both the Father and the Son and being born again of the Holy Spirit and being known by them, believing in them (not denying anything about them that is true) and following them, as our LORD and our God, we will get through the ‘gate.’ After getting through the ‘gate’ loving them with my whole heart and loving others as myself will still be the plan and will be perhaps automatic and even impossible NOT to do. Wouldn’t that be amazing!
So, in my next post, I will address your thoughts and scriptures.
Hoping for more fruitful discussion with you…LU (LightenUp)
@gunstar54
Here is my attempt with a written, virtual conversation with you. I hope it is fruitful, clear as well as challenging as we go for knowing the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in truth and have fellowship with them and each other. I will put your words in a quote ‘box’ and respond after them…bear with me 🙂you said:
As to whether Christ is ‘eternal’ I’d have to look at some more passages…The first being John 1:1…As you say He was there in the beginning…Thing is, Almighty God does not have a beginning so we are talking about the beginning or entry of something or someone else…A ‘Firstborn of all Creation’ would seem to fit this scenario better…
Almighty God was there in the beginning, the Word who was God was there in the beginning. John 1:1 is stating who was there in the beginning. Saying that in the beginning was the Word, does not in any way discount an eternal presence. This verse does not say, for instance, in the beginning entered the word. The Word that we are told was God, already WAS in the beginning, so was the God to whom the Word was with.
In Micah 5, the prophet states… 2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”
Other translators use the word origins in place of goings forth…This Micah 5 verse probably speaks of the Son’s begetting…I believe that this may have happened and was announced as “Let there be Light.” I further understand that to beget an offspring, the offspring had to have existed already in order to be brought forth. As I have stated previously, I believe this existence to have been eternal. 1 John 1 tells us this for instance:
1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.As the passage says, the ETERNAL LIFE was with the Father and was manifested to people. The Son is who is being referred to here.
In 1 Timothy 6, Paul writes this: 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time -He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
Other translators also actually use God in place of He, since it in His presence that Paul gives Timothy this solemn charge…God is the ‘blessed and only Sovereign’ which also lines up with a statement made by Christ in John 17: 3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent”
IMO there is only one true, immortal God…He doesn’t share that distinction with anyone else, not even His first born who is the image of his father in every way…They are also ‘one’, as Jesus states, and we are supposed to be following that pattern as true believers…In 1 Timothy 6 as per the KJV, notice the differences:
13I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.My understanding of who the blessed and only Potentate/ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords is, would be Jesus. Jesus is the only ruler that has immortality who is dwelling in the Light, (the Light is the Father here, possibly). To defend that position I will use these three verses:
Rev 17:4
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.Matt 23:10
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.Christ is our one master/ruler/potentate.
1 John 1
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.God is light, Jesus is IN the light. Jesus dwells in the Light which no man can approach. He is the only potentate/ruler who dwells in the Light.
In the same chapter he says, 22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. If we are one as the Father and Son are, then we will be of one spirit with them but only in purpose and procedure, not power and authority…That now rest with Christ till the end of the age.
The Father and Son share more than one glory, this passage speaks of the glory of being ‘in’ each other. Also, Christ actually has dominion over all creation with the Father for ever and ever, not just to the end of the age.
Rev 5
And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.But if you read 1 Corinthians 15, you’ll note that Christ will be handing the Kingdom back over to the Father when all has been accomplished.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.Jesus abolishes all rule and authority and hands the defeated kingdom of darkness over to the Father which leaves the kingdom of light uncontested. In the kingdom of light, the Son has always been subject to the Father but for a time, the Father gave the Son the authority to defeat the kingdom of darkness in His own manner. IMO
I think you will agree, the only thing that really matters is making it through the narrow gate and being part of all this…It is to that end we should share the Scriptures and our faith in hopes of a closer walk in the Spirit and a pleasing obedience to God through Jesus, our Lord…
This is not the ONLY thing that really matters but I understand you might be using the word ‘only’ but not mean it in an absolute way. Refer to my post prior to this one for the response to this.
Thank you for your time as you considered this post!
God bless,
LUT,
see what you do ;but you do not say what you believe right ?yes
see i say and believe it is # 1 the “US”
so what are you saying kerwin ?
I prefer the interpretation that God is speaking to his angels using the collective form of we though 2-4 all pass the truth test but I find them weaker arguments than 1. 5 even if you interpret it to be monotheistic is a useless argument and if you do not then it is untrue. 6 is untrue.
T,
you can see how you are thinking ;you are thinking starting from your point of view ,men’s view;
You are just saying that as an accusation. It adds nothing to the conversation except to say that you not believe what I am saying.
I do not see it that way ;see nothing says that it is not Moses that as written those books (scrolls) for they are part of the five first books ,
Moses did not write of his death and the time after his death even those things are written in the book of Deuteronomy. A scribe, possibly Joshua, wrote of these things.
Your argument is that since Scripture does not state Moses did not write the the Pentateuch it follows that he did. So what you call your “Scriptural” teaching is based on what Scripture does not say.
The only thing I find important about this is learning how to test the traditions you have learned to test if they are true. You must continuously test your own teaching whether they are traditions or teaching that have come to you.
K
I prefer the interpretation that God is speaking to his angels using the collective form of we though 2-4 all pass the truth test but I find them weaker arguments than 1. 5 even if you interpret it to be monotheistic is a useless argument and if you do not then it is untrue. 6 is untrue.
you just confirm what i try so many times to tell you; you follow your logic into what you have established to be true to you ;i believe what scriptures tells me ;i do believe that God is alone God and that their is no other god like him around anywhere ,and that he created his son as the very first creation ;this is spelled out in scriptures without necessary need of large explanation from men to make it different ;
K
Moses did not write of his death and the time after his death even those things are written in the book of Deuteronomy. A scribe, possibly Joshua, wrote of these things.
Your argument is that since Scripture does not state Moses did not write the the Pentateuch it follows that he did. So what you call your “Scriptural” teaching is based on what Scripture does not say.
The only thing I find important about this is learning how to test the traditions you have learned to test if they are true. You must continuously test your own teaching whether they are traditions or teaching that have come to you.
i was under the impression that we were talking about the scroll of Geneses ?
T,
you just confirm what i try so many times to tell you; you follow your logic into what you have established to be true to you ;i believe what scriptures tells me ;i do believe that God is alone God and that their is no other god like him around anywhere ,and that he created his son as the very first creation ;this is spelled out in scriptures without necessary need of large explanation from men to make it different ;
I did not show you any reasoning in what I said. I told you my preference for one and my findings on the other 5.
You do not believe what Scripture as I pointed out from your argument that you believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch because Scripture does not say otherwise. You can truthfully claim that you believe some of what Scripture states but as long as you add to it or subtract from it you do not believe all of what Scripture says. In this case you can claim I prefer the to follow the traditional speculation but you cannot truthfully claim it comes from Scripture since as soon as you do you are adding to Scripture.
You do not believe God is one of a kind as you have previously claimed angels are lesser members of the same kind. If you do change your mind then you also need to change your interpretation of the words “existed in the form of God” from Philippians 2:6 as angels would then not be existing in the physical form of God.
I do not believe that Jesus was created as the very first creation of God.
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