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Quote (Stu @ Mar. 10 2009,21:24) Does Kimba's 'take' about the timescale of the condensation of matter from the scientific cosmological account fit the mythological account in scripture or not? Stuart
Scripture doesn't put a time on anything. It simply talks of six stages.God created the heavens and earth.
Then:
1: He allows light to bathe the earth.
2: Creates an atmosphere, with water on the ground and in the air. i.e., condensation, evaporation, precipitation (or whatever process water was doing at that point).
3: Separates water from land. Obviously there is enough water to cover all the earth if you smooth out all the bumps. So maybe he created the bumps through what ever process he programmed. Once land appeared, plants followed.
4: After the plants, the atmosphere became clear enough for the stars to be seen.
5: Certain animals appeared in the sea and on land. Fish, birds, and others.
6: Reptiles, mammals, and other creatures appeared. (NOTE that the word 'creature' is made from the word 'create'). Finally God created man.So there you have it.
Now you can point out the contradictions in terms of chronology.
Isn't that better than just name calling?
If science means knowledge, then name calling isn't science Stu. It is nothing but name calling which most consider to be immature. I say this to help you Stu, not to ridicule you.
Sticks and stones…. OK, enough said.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 14 2009,21:04) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 10 2009,21:24) Did you post this to appear impressive?
Ah no I didn't post to appear as impressive,
OK, well it didn't come across that way, so there is nothing to be surprised about.Stuart
t8
Quote Scripture doesn't put a time on anything. It simply talks of six stages.
Are you equivocating with god’s word? Genesis does not say “In the third era god created….”, it very clearly and distinctly says DAYS. Not periods, eras, whatever. I think false witness is a sin, is it not?Quote God created the heavens and earth. Then:
1: He allows light to bathe the earth.
2: Creates an atmosphere, with water on the ground and in the air. i.e., condensation, evaporation, precipitation (or whatever process water was doing at that point).
3: Separates water from land. Obviously there is enough water to cover all the earth if you smooth out all the bumps. So maybe he created the bumps through what ever process he programmed. Once land appeared, plants followed.
4: After the plants, the atmosphere became clear enough for the stars to be seen.
5: Certain animals appeared in the sea and on land. Fish, birds, and others.
6: Reptiles, mammals, and other creatures appeared. (NOTE that the word 'creature' is made from the word 'create'). Finally God created man.So there you have it.
No, here you have it:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The earth appears before the thing that caused its matter to accrete in the first place.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Where does it say anything about thick clouds?
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first dayNote that god has not yet made the things that produce light. There is no sun for there to be a morning!
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.It does say waters. It does say firmament. Those who did the writing of this held a cultural belief that there was indeed a solid sky thing through which the rain fell and on which the stars were stapled.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
And the scientific account has the oceans produced by condensation of water vapour, which would never be expected to have covered the whole earth. At the very least this is a truth claim without evidence.
1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Now if these are photosynthesising plants, you can’t have an era in between this and the next event, can you?!
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
The invention of astrology!
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
And of course we know the Moon is not a light, it is just a light surface off which sunlight reflects.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
…using staples, or heat-resistant superglue?
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Although the fossil record shows that whales were originally land-dwelling. They have vestigial hip bones, you know. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_evolution” target=”_blank”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_evolution%5B/I%5D
1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Note there is no mention of microscopic life here, the aspect that man still does not have dominion over. And who is this ‘us’? Is that a nod to henotheism?
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
It was ‘very good’ and yet things went so wrong that just a matter of a couple of thousand years later ‘he’ had to drown just about the whole lot. What an incompetent. Certainly not omnipotent!
Quote If science means knowledge, then name calling isn't science Stu. It is nothing but name calling which most consider to be immature. I say this to help you Stu, not to ridicule you.
Gee, thanks.
By the way, where have I called anyone names?Stuart
Quote “In the third era god created….”, it very clearly and distinctly says DAYS. Not periods, eras, whatever. I And yet, if we let the Bible itself define what day meant in that text, we know it cannot mean 24 hour day. Just after that account all the days were lumped into one “day”: “in the day” that God created those things.
In that instance, it is definitely referring to a period that encompasses more than 24 hours. It's definitely referring to a more general period of time.
The fact is, that word translated “day” can have a number of meanings, just as “day” does today, and just as it did in my grandfathers day, and his grandfathers day. Even in the day of the Bible writers, that word had many meanings.Some dictionaries under the word “day” have as one definition “epoch.” an epoch is a long period of time when great things happen. Does this not fit the account?
Stu, you do this all the time. Over and over and over. When there is more than one possible meaning, you assign the meaning to the word that contradicts what we know, and in this case, it also contradicts the context of the account itself.
Quote No, here you have it: Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The earth appears before the thing that caused its matter to accrete in the first place.
stu, I understand your maddness. But where does it say what you suggest.
If I said: “A long time ago, the heavens and the earth came to be” this would be true. It's not very time specific, but it's true. How is that different than: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2009,15:03) Quote “In the third era god created….”, it very clearly and distinctly says DAYS. Not periods, eras, whatever. I And yet, if we let the Bible itself define what day meant in that text, we know it cannot mean 24 hour day. Just after that account all the days were lumped into one “day”: “in the day” that God created those things.
In that instance, it is definitely referring to a period that encompasses more than 24 hours. It's definitely referring to a more general period of time.
The fact is, that word translated “day” can have a number of meanings, just as “day” does today, and just as it did in my grandfathers day, and his grandfathers day. Even in the day of the Bible writers, that word had many meanings.Some dictionaries under the word “day” have as one definition “epoch.” an epoch is a long period of time when great things happen. Does this not fit the account?
Stu, you do this all the time. Over and over and over. When there is more than one possible meaning, you assign the meaning to the word that contradicts what we know, and in this case, it also contradicts the context of the account itself.
You can say that the 6 days were consecutive 24 hour periods within the time referred to as 'the day' meaning era. There is no contradiction. It is you reading modern science into scripture, where the bible itself contains no reason to think anything other than 24 days were meant. To emphasise the 24 hour peroids, nightfall and daybreak are described each time. Do the eras you refer to only have one instance of morning each?Of course it does not matter which interpretation you make, beacuse it is all patently absurd, and you have shown in the past that it takes the most tortuous bending of language imaginable to make it fit the facts. Actually who cares if Genesis is utterly wrong ancient Middle-Eastern goat herder mythology? Why should it matter so much? I guess it just MUST be right for your worldview to be validated.
Your claim for 'more than one possible meaning” does not bear out when you are only allowing for one meaning yourself, and not the one that naturally follows from a reading of the text as a whole.
Stuart
Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2009,15:05) Quote No, here you have it: Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The earth appears before the thing that caused its matter to accrete in the first place.
stu, I understand your maddness. But where does it say what you suggest.
If I said: “A long time ago, the heavens and the earth came to be” this would be true. It's not very time specific, but it's true. How is that different than: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
David,Sorry about this going back to the original scripture. I feel that your mythology does not match the original mythology.
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
We have an earth, and a heaven, also called a firmament, although god spends a whole day creating the firmament later on.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
So, at the end of day one, we have an earth, a heaven and light, and dark (“not light”?)
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
The ONLY light that divides day from night is that resulting from the appearance of the sun.
So, we have earth on day one, and the sun that brought the earth and other planets into existence by planetary accretion of debris from a nearby supernova, coming into existence three days later, AFTER the earth it supposedly brought into being.
Stuart
Quote You can say that the 6 days were consecutive 24 hour periods within the time referred to as 'the day' meaning era. So, stu, are you suggesting that in that second instance, “day” means “era”?
Because earlier you said: “ it very clearly and distinctly says DAYS. Not periods, eras, whatever. I think false witness is a sin, is it not?“
In one instance you say it clearly says “days” or in this case, it clearly used the word “day.” (“not periods, eras, whatever.”)
But here, now, you're saying:Quote You can say that the 6 days were consecutive 24 hour periods within the time referred to as 'the day' meaning era. I'm not sure you can have it both ways. I'm not sure you can demand that say as you do that 'it clearly says “day,” not period, era' and then say that the “day” spoken of which referrs to all the days could be an era.
So you might as well say that it is a contradiction to say that 24 (day) times 7= 24 (day). And just leave it at that.If in the very context of that account the word “day” is definitely used to refer to a period that encompasses all the days of creation, then we cannot categorically say that the days of creation were 24 hour days. Why can't we just at least acknowledge the different definitions found in dictionaries. Back then, “day” had a variety of meanings, just like in our “day.”
Stu, I know you should be able to at least try to understand that if I say:
“A long time ago, the heavens and the earth came to be”
that it's not a very specific statement time wise. It says nothing about the order of the heavens being created and the earth coming to be. It doesn't say one came first, or that they both came about at the same time, etc. All the statement above is saying is that the heavens (and the earth which is part of the heavens) came to be a long time ago.
I can't see you argueing that this vague statment is false.And yet you have repeatedly made statements similar to this, saying:
Quote No, here you have it: Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The earth appears before the thing that caused its matter to accrete in the first place.
I'm wondering if you could point out to me where in those 10 words do we find the idea that the earth appears before the heavens? Nowhere.
**
Quote We have an earth, and a heaven, also called a firmament, although god spends a whole day creating the firmament later on.
Just as you pick the one definiton of “day” that suits you, you do the same with “firmament” which is a word that basically means “expanse.”
To compound matters, in the Bible, the word “heaven” can mean the sky that birds in fly in, but can also mean space. The expanse which he called heaven (sky), was not the same as the “heaven” that he created in the beginning (the universe).Stu, I know it's complicated and difficult to understand when words we are not familiar with have more than one meaning. But you are using this as some sort of way to make things contradict. Many English words have more than one meaning. We can play the game you are playing with any book.
Also, if you were to look at Genesis from the standpoint of an observer and not from the standpoint of someone watching from space, things would be happening exactly as described. (that is, if we take out the confusion you're taking advantage of over the multiple meaning in these words.)
david
IF not for the poetic use of the words morning and evening, there would be nothing to discuss.
The fact that according to the Bible, we are still in the seventh day bears out that the days were longer than 24 hours.
If I remember, the phrase evening and morning don't appear after the seventh day. God rested on the seventh day.HEBREWS 4:1-11
“Therefore, since a promise is left of entering into his rest, let us fear that sometime someone of YOU may seem to have fallen short of it. For we have had the good news declared to us also, even as they also had; but the word which was heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who did hear. For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world. For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,” and again in this place: “They shall not enter into my rest.” Since, therefore, it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience, he again marks off a certain day by saying after so long a time in David’s [psalm] “Today”; just as it has been said above: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice, do not harden YOUR hearts.” For if Joshua had led them into a place of rest, [God] would not afterward have spoken of another day. So there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. For the man that has entered into [God’s] rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own. Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest, for fear anyone should fall in the same pattern of disobedience.”Looking at Genesis, the scripture is open ended having no “evening came and morning came.” God rested on the seventh day and is still resting…..on the seventh day.
If you know the law, you know sabbaths and periods of seven are important. By the end of the seventh day, all will be as God purposed.
Also, the account makes it seem like adam had to wait a while to get a mate, more than 24 hours.
Also, to name all the animals would take a while. This getting a mate, getting instructions from God and naming all the animals would take longer than 24 hours.Given that only a complete idiot would actually take literally that a man walked again after he was executed, it is pretty clear that the bible does not actually intend for anyone to be literal about it. If the mornings and evenings are poetic, then so is the whole story of Jesus.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2009,19:49) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 14 2009,21:04) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 10 2009,21:24) Did you post this to appear impressive?
Ah no I didn't post to appear as impressive,
OK, well it didn't come across that way, so there is nothing to be surprised about.Stuart
Why say it then?Either I am impressive to you, or you think I am trying to impress. Or maybe an impression came out of nothing, i.e., it had no cause?
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2009,20:23) 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Where does it say anything about thick clouds?
It doesn't. It says let there be light. Light comes to the earth from the sun. If light hits the earth it might be that God created the sun right there and then. Problem with that scripturally speaking is that it already stated that God created the heavens. So I look at it in another light It may well be that the sun was able to shine into the darkness that it speaks of. I am purely speculating like scientists often do, to come up with a theory that fits. I am not saying this is definitely what happened and I made that clear in the language I used. You might need to read a bit slower to pick that up.Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2009,20:23) Note that god has not yet made the things that produce light. There is no sun for there to be a morning!
Ha ha! Where does it say that God hadn't created the sun at that point and that the light that came was the result of the sun being created?Quote (Stu @ Mar. 23 2009,20:23) 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. Now if these are photosynthesising plants, you can’t have an era in between this and the next event, can you?!
Not sure what you are going on about, but plants carry out photosynthesis as well as respiration.In fact I don't need to comment any further on your argument. I didn't see anything of debatable value. Just being honest.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2009,19:57) Given that only a complete idiot would actually take literally that a man walked again after he was executed, it is pretty clear that the bible does not actually intend for anyone to be literal about it. If the mornings and evenings are poetic, then so is the whole story of Jesus. Stuart
Stu Stu Stu.You always have to see things in your way. No wonder you are confused. Do you not think that an eternal being has a different set of standards, measurements, and way of seeing than you. Sure it is written in a language for you to understand, but it is written that a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like one day to YHWH. You need to be able to exercise foresight/insight/anysight and not be so literal to your own understanding and culture.
The point is that God is not like you and what he says in English is probably the closest word you might get to conveying something that is beyond your experience. It might also help if you actually look up the words in the original language, because the use of day is not necessarily your narrow understanding of it. Greek is quite rich with some words compared to English.
Do you honestly think that and eternal being who exists even outside his own creation would measure everything by a revolution of the earth around the sun?
A day to us maybe 24 hours, but a day to a Martian is longer. So a day to God is certainly just speaking of a period of time or stage.
In your effort to find fault your bias is actually making you ignorant because you are unable to see depth and possibility by being limited to your bias and very limited understanding.
If you are not careful you may be lessening your intellectual capability without realizing it. It is written that the proud set themselves up for a fall and history is full of stories of people and even companies that were so proud that they fell because of it.
e.g., Google offered their company to Yahoo for 1 billion dollars many years ago and the Yahoo CEO said “we don't need them”. Now of course Google has taken much mind share, search share, money, and market from them, that Google could easily buy Yahoo out (ignoring antitrust violations). But if the Yahoo CEO had got off his high horse, he might have been able to see reality. The rest is history.
You risk being history Stu. Eternity is a long time. You hardly register as a blip.
David, T8,
Maybe it's my literalist background, but you both seem to be appealing to “poetic license” where a lot of literal language is being used. For example, check out these two versions of the same passage:
Genesis 1:
Quote 14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:
Quote 14-15 God spoke: “Lights! Come out!
Shine in Heaven's sky!
Separate Day from Night.
Mark seasons and days and years,
Lights in Heaven's sky to give light to Earth.”
And there it was.16-19 God made two big lights, the larger
to take charge of Day,
The smaller to be in charge of Night;
and he made the stars.
God placed them in the heavenly sky
to light up Earth
And oversee Day and Night,
to separate light and dark.
God saw that it was good.
It was evening, it was morning—
Day Four.The first quote is from the NKJV and the second is from the Message. In other words, the first is from a fairly literal biblical translation, and the latter is from the most “poetic” translation of scripture of which I am aware.
In both, the scripture clearly states that God made the two great lights and placed them in the sky, on the fourth day!
Where do you get any support for the theory that the sun and moon were already made, and already placed in the sky prior to the the “fourth day of creation”? Are you simply making it up, because the text doesn't read as you might like it to read?
If you can take the above passage and reshape its meaning, despite the actual meaning of the words in the passage, why do you object when a trinitarian reads John 1:1 and sees the Trinity? Or better yet, why can't anyone take any passage and reshape it based on what they already believe to be true?
The passage clearly states, God made the sun and moon and placed them in the sky on the “fourth day”? Do you disagree? If so, show me from the text where you get your own theory.
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