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Hi Not3
Quote And then, after that? what do you do after that? You hope and PRAY you got it right! Especially if it is a life and death venture.
Sure you can pray. It will make no difference to the outcome. That’s not my opinion, that’s what the science shows.Quote Well, then your a hard nut to crack! Because I remember there being some good chats there. I'd have to go back and revisit it for specifics. Just because you weren't convinced doesn't mean they weren't good arguments and other's would perhaps be convinced on their merit. You, sir, have just made up your mind!
It’s a bit disappointing that you are still smearing my reputation for fair play while still not telling me what I do on faith!Quote Speaking of “minds made up”…… Yes, I do accept that I could be wrong. However, faith allows me to hope always that I am right! See how that works? The result is peace of mind.
OK. That is disarmingly honest of you and I should think distressing for Nick and t8 who seem unable to afford to concede that reality. You are agnostic as we all must be. I maintain you are not using faith because when you blindly say ‘god will provide’, either no provision is made or someone or something else does the actual providing bit. God is irrelevant because these outcomes are exactly the same for the faithful ad faithless alike.You can seek comfort in something unknowable and unable to be disproved, like a god, but then you must be willing to appreciate that the Flying Spaghetti Monster brigs great comfort by use of His Noodly Appendage, by exactly the same faith-based hope.
Quote I gave you my “supposed” property make-up of a soul because that is all any of us have. Do you have something else to work from?
Yes, neuroscience.Stuart
Hi Stuart,
Quote Sure you can pray. It will make no difference to the outcome. That’s not my opinion, that’s what the science shows.
I don't know why this struck me as a bit funny this morning, but it did. Can science really be an authority on religion? It sounds like that might be a conflict of interest (to a large degree but not all), I don't know?
I mean, who conducted the experiement? an honest atheist like yourself, maybe?Quote It’s a bit disappointing that you are still smearing my reputation for fair play while still not telling me what I do on faith!
Come on, Stu, concluding that you have already made up your mind is smearing your rep? Goodness. Your rep must be extremely fragile? As for the statements that I believe challenged you rightly — they are for the looking up of anyone who is interested. It would do me no good to point to one argument that “I” thought was good because apparently you didn't think any of them were good. Why waste my time?Quote OK. That is disarmingly honest of you and I should think distressing for Nick and t8 who seem unable to afford to concede that reality. You are agnostic as we all must be.
“Disarmingly honest”? Well, okay…..but all Christians take their religion on faith. Christianity is built on faith. I don't see anything alarming about that. Nick and t8 try to convince you by argument and the Christian proof. I appeal from a different angle. To be frank, I don't even know what an Agnostic is? But I believe in things not seen and even tho I wasn't there, I believe Christ died for me. Probably to you, that makes me an idiot? So be it.Quote I maintain you are not using faith because when you blindly say ‘god will provide’, either no provision is made or someone or something else does the actual providing bit. God is irrelevant because these outcomes are exactly the same for the faithful ad faithless alike.
Boy, is your experience lacking in this department. I'm still not sure from what basis you draw these conclusions? Is it from personal experience?I'll give you a very personal example where God has provided in my life, and where faith was employed but so were other methods of taking care of the situation.
When Dan and I went through some financial difficulties a few years ago, we were cash-flow broke. I mean broke. We had an insurance bill coming due for $668.98. We didn't have it. I prayed and asked God for help and ultimately for the money. Then I worked and worked at anything I could do to make money (but I still came up short). Towards the end of the week I got an envelope in the mail from an insurance company I didn't recognize. In it was a check made payable to me. Can you guess how much it was for?
Yep, TO THE PENNY!I called the insurance company and told them that it was a mistake, that I didn't recognize them and certainly they didn't owe us any money (as my hands were shaking while holding the phone). The manager came on the line and told me that indeed it was a policy from many years ago that we had over-paid and please accept this check with their apologies. WHAT? I cried and cried.
God had provided. We were never with that insurance company….
Faith+action=blessing.
Faith is required. Praise God!
Love,
MandyI might add as a sort-of qualifier here………
The faithless never see a miracle, they only see coincidences.
Mere “chance” to the Christian is God working and willing. We see it everyday in ways that would blow your mind! Woo hoo, thank you Lord!
3in1
Having put my faith in God nearly 30 years ago now I have seen His faithfulness over and over with “coincidences” of all sorts. Many of these “coincidences” far defy the odds of being coincidences and despite that, those who's “faith” is in “evidence” still ignore the statistical improbabilities and choose to cling to their “religion” of unbelief.My opinion – Wm
Hi WM,
I agree with you! I have had many coincidences in my life that have made me smile and look up!
Yes, God is real!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,04:04) I might add as a sort-of qualifier here……… The faithless never see a miracle, they only see coincidences.
Mere “chance” to the Christian is God working and willing. We see it everyday in ways that would blow your mind! Woo hoo, thank you Lord!
Oh Gotta play with that, I love it MandyHey what do you think?
It could have been a coincidence that Moses was by the rock when god moved the earth, so accrued water came gushing out?Moses desires credit….must we fetch you water out of this rock?
Num 20:10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
Num 20:11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts [also].next verse, sounds like Moses was a little deluded, and cops the fine…Last Laughs gods…Num 20:12 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2008,10:58) When Dan and I went through some financial difficulties a few years ago, we were cash-flow broke. I mean broke. We had an insurance bill coming due for $668.98. We didn't have it. I prayed and asked God for help and ultimately for the money. Then I worked and worked at anything I could do to make money (but I still came up short). Towards the end of the week I got an envelope in the mail from an insurance company I didn't recognize. In it was a check made payable to me. Can you guess how much it was for? Yep, TO THE PENNY!I called the insurance company and told them that it was a mistake, that I didn't recognize them and certainly they didn't owe us any money (as my hands were shaking while holding the phone). The manager came on the line and told me that indeed it was a policy from many years ago that we had over-paid and please accept this check with their apologies. WHAT? I cried and cried.
God had provided. We were never with that insurance company….
Faith+action=blessing.
Faith is required. Praise God!
Love,
Mandy
Not to take away from your story, but wouldn't faith and prayer be better placed upon the millions of children who die from starvation every year? I know you received money when you so desperately needed it, but that same $668 could have kept a child or two from dying. Why isn't Yahweh sending checks to the poverty stricken people of the world?Hey Kevin,
How do you know he isn't sending checks?
I volunteer with a homeless shelter than receives 100's of “checks in the mail” from very generous folks every day. I'm sure it's in answer to someone's prayer (my prayers for them are included here).
Remember that even Jesus said we would always have the poor among us……
You, my friend, want the global answers that may only come when we meet him face to face. However I certainly wouldn't judge God on the basis that I received a needed answer to prayer and someone in Africa is starving.
We are also told that to those who have more will be given, and to those who have not even what they have will be taken away! Do we understand it all? Can you?
Hi Not3
Quote I don't know why this struck me as a bit funny this morning, but it did. Can science really be an authority on religion? It sounds like that might be a conflict of interest (to a large degree but not all), I don't know? I mean, who conducted the experiement? an honest atheist like yourself, maybe? http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060403133554.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Templeton_Foundation
Quote Come on, Stu, concluding that you have already made up your mind is smearing your rep? Goodness. Your rep must be extremely fragile? As for the statements that I believe challenged you rightly — they are for the looking up of anyone who is interested. It would do me no good to point to one argument that “I” thought was good because apparently you didn't think any of them were good. Why waste my time?
In your opinion there were good ideas yet you can’t give me a single example. No offense, but that is properly called weasel words. I can’t see how you have made a point about me doing things on faith.Quote “Disarmingly honest”? Well, okay…..but all Christians take their religion on faith. Christianity is built on faith. I don't see anything alarming about that. Nick and t8 try to convince you by argument and the Christian proof.
What on earth is ‘christian proof’? Proof and faith are opposites. You are right that they would call it that, but once again they are abusing the dictionary.Quote I appeal from a different angle. To be frank, I don't even know what an Agnostic is? But I believe in things not seen and even tho I wasn't there, I believe Christ died for me. Probably to you, that makes me an idiot? So be it.
I have never called anyone here an idiot because it would not be true. An agnostic is someone who acknowledges that it is not possible to know for sure whether there is a god or not. You rightly conceded there is a chance that you could be wrong, as I do. We are both agnostic. However, you follow christianity in practise, that is your conclusion about the world. I personally think there is evidence that you have not taken into account, or maybe choose to discount, in order to come to that view. My provisional conclusion, based on the evidence I know about, is that gods, angels, astrology, demons, spirits, ghosts, taniwha, psychic phenomena and water divining are all fictitious human ideas with no basis in reality. Again, we agree about all of the gods except one. I just reject one more god than you. Why did you reject the other gods?Stu: I maintain you are not using faith because when you blindly say ‘god will provide’, either no provision is made or someone or something else does the actual providing bit. God is irrelevant because these outcomes are exactly the same for the faithful ad faithless alike.
Quote Boy, is your experience lacking in this department. I'm still not sure from what basis you draw these conclusions? Is it from personal experience?
Do you think christians survive life-threatening experiences more often than non-christians? Do they live longer? Do they get imprisoned less often? Do they win lotteries more often or find lost remote controls faster? It would be pretty obvious from basic geographical health data that countries with higher rates of belief had lower rates of disease or other negative factors. The people who live longest are found in Japan, one of the least god-believing countries on the planet. I don’t think you can fairly say that there is a god that particularly provides for christians.Quote I'll give you a very personal example where God has provided in my life, and where faith was employed but so were other methods of taking care of the situation. When Dan and I went through some financial difficulties a few years ago, we were cash-flow broke. I mean broke. We had an insurance bill coming due for $668.98. We didn't have it. I prayed and asked God for help and ultimately for the money. Then I worked and worked at anything I could do to make money (but I still came up short). Towards the end of the week I got an envelope in the mail from an insurance company I didn't recognize. In it was a check made payable to me. Can you guess how much it was for? Yep, TO THE PENNY! I called the insurance company and told them that it was a mistake, that I didn't recognize them and certainly they didn't owe us any money (as my hands were shaking while holding the phone). The manager came on the line and told me that indeed it was a policy from many years ago that we had over-paid and please accept this check with their apologies. WHAT? I cried and cried. God had provided. We were never with that insurance company…..
You have broken the law then. Did god require that of you? Was the cheque (NZ spelling) made out in the name of god? How do you know it was not the Flying Spaghetti Monster?Quote Faith+action=blessing. Faith is required. Praise God!
then: blessing=action (by a real person)Quote The faithless never see a miracle, they only see coincidences. Mere “chance” to the Christian is God working and willing.
Turn that around. The faithful see coincidence as miracle. Coincidence is behind a great blind spot for pattern-obsessed humans. Some fill that blindness with an imaginary organising force.Quote We see it everyday in ways that would blow your mind! Woo hoo, thank you Lord!
You have convinced yourself it is true. I don’t find it convincing at all. Woo hoo the inability to understand probability!Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2008,18:58) Hey Kevin, How do you know he isn't sending checks?
I volunteer with a homeless shelter than receives 100's of “checks in the mail” from very generous folks every day. I'm sure it's in answer to someone's prayer (my prayers for them are included here).
Don't forget the key here: generous folks.Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2008,19:01) Remember that even Jesus said we would always have the poor among us…… Poor…and dying of starvation? Don't recall seeing the second part written anywhere.
Quote You, my friend, want the global answers that may only come when we meet him face to face. However I certainly wouldn't judge God on the basis that I received a needed answer to prayer and someone in Africa is starving. Don't fall into the trap of others on here who say someone is “judging God” by questioning why so many suffer while others live a much better life almost simply due to birth. What if you had been born as one of those starving children instead?
Quote We are also told that to those who have more will be given, and to those who have not even what they have will be taken away! Do we understand it all? Can you?
Does that even sound appropriate at this point? This sounds cruel to me. Some people never get a chance to do anything with what they “get”.
If an employer pays sufficient wages to an employee for room and board but the employee takes that money and spends it on booze leaving his family to starve is that the employers fault? Now lets say the employer attempted to step in and force the employee to do right, at that point he has overstepped his boundaries (just to be clear for those who like to twist words – this is an example of responsibility not a statement that all starving children are as a result of drinking).
Now God gave man dominion over the earth and there is enough food for everyone if we made it a priority. Someday God will take back that dominion and then there will be no starvation but until then we can only blame ourselves.
Prayer basically can give God the right to step into a situation without overriding our dominion.
My opinion – Wm
I'm sitting here over coffee this morning wishing that I could be accross the table from Kevin and Stuart. I would love a real-life conversation with the both of you!
This morning I've contemplated what you both have shared….. I've looked at my own ability to reason and find logic in what we say we believe and what the so-called evidence shows. I've concluded that there is a lot of saddness in the world; killing, raping, starving, judging, indifference, hate. To say that it is unfair for the child above to be starving and for mine to have excess is an understatement. And because we don't understand it, we look to God with accusation. It has to be HIS fault that some suffer so needlessly. Because after all, he could feed them too. Right? Kevin, you say you don't want to be accused of “juding God” but what exactly to do you think regarding this picture you posted of the starving child………….do you think YOU had anything to do with this horrific pain? Will YOU take any of the responsibility? Can I take any because I feed my children a healthy breakfast every morning? If we can't take responsibility then it must be God's fault. You see my point? Someone needs to be responsible for this starving child!!! Who's fault is it? I WANT TO KNOW.
Stu, more thoughts on your post later. I guess I would be able to say I'm agnostic except for the fact that I do believe God exists regardless of scientific proof. I guess my convincer-rule is shorter than yours? One quick thing I wanted to comment on though, is that by cashing that insurance check I did not break any law that I am aware of. I went through the powers-that-be at the insurance company and they have record of our over paid account. You cannot make sense of it, don't even try!
Later,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,12:03) I'm sitting here over coffee this morning wishing that I could be accross the table from Kevin and Stuart. I would love a real-life conversation with the both of you! This morning I've contemplated what you both have shared….. I've looked at my own ability to reason and find logic in what we say we believe and what the so-called evidence shows. I've concluded that there is a lot of saddness in the world; killing, raping, starving, judging, indifference, hate. To say that it is unfair for the child above to be starving and for mine to have excess is an understatement. And because we don't understand it, we look to God with accusation.
Only speaking for myself because Stu thinks God is imaginary (as I think Yahweh is), but the answer to this, for me, is “no”. I don't look to God for any of the answers to the sufferings of the world because I know suffering has always been with us. It is not part of the fall, it is not part of some divine plan, nor is it part of Satan's plot. It is just life.
Rather, the poor starving child is an accusation against the bible. In it, Jesus said his followers could ask for anything in prayer and receive it. Doesn't happen.
He also said his followers would be able to do greater acts than he. If that is so, the hospitals would be empty and each Christian would be able to feed thousands with a Happy Meal. Doesn't happen.
Quote It has to be HIS fault that some suffer so needlessly. You are falling into the common trap of believing that if someone refutes the bible, they are automatically accusing God. Surely God is not the bible, is it? You doubt the testimony of the OT, yet you still equate the bible with God. So who is truly accusing God here?
Quote Because after all, he could feed them too. Right? If you take the bible on its words, yes. I don't so I have no issue with God's lack of intervention. I don't see God as a genie or one who grants divine favors. I have no proof of this (and you don't have proof that opposes me), but I believe God does not mingle in our affairs. He is much like the mother bird who has kicked the baby bird out of the nest. Its time for humanity to grow up and depend on itself.
Think if every Christian took their tithe and put it towards more worthy efforts, like food and medicine for those in poverty? Instead, Christians spend billions of dollars on buildings they can go sing and pray in and on preacher's salaries. A recent study shows the average head pastor salary at $80k. I wish I made that.
Quote Kevin, you say you don't want to be accused of “juding God” but what exactly to do you think regarding this picture you posted of the starving child. Judging the bible and its empty promises.
Quote …………do you think YOU had anything to do with this horrific pain? Will YOU take any of the responsibility? No, I did not have anything to do with it. Should I believe I did?
Quote Can I take any because I feed my children a healthy breakfast every morning? If we can't take responsibility then it must be God's fault. You see my point? Someone needs to be responsible for this starving child!!! Who's fault is it? I WANT TO KNOW.
Likely the Sudanese government.Kevin,
I was reading some back posts of yours – amazing posts – amazing insight to the bible and the God it speaks of. How in the hell you went from there to here I'll never know! Sour milk.
Is God the bible? No, I don't believe so although there are those here that believe strongly it is the very word of God.
Tell me, if you don't believe the bible is a good representation of God – what is?
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:29) Kevin, I was reading some back posts of yours – amazing posts – amazing insight to the bible and the God it speaks of. How in the hell you went from there to here I'll never know! Sour milk.
It was a progressive thing. But it finally boiled down to seeing the horrors of the OT without a Christian spin. It was an eye-opening experience.
Do you know that there are many ex-theists among atheists than those who never believed? At least in the USA. Most of the them turned away from the biblical view of God because that was all they knew of Him. And they did so because they too could not believe in such a horrible despot as the OT portrays. I count myself blessed for not going all the way like they did.
Quote Is God the bible? No, I don't believe so although there are those here that believe strongly it is the very word of God. Tell me, if you don't believe the bible is a good representation of God – what is?
Mandy
To me, God is practically unknowable. If s/he was knowable, why so many different texts which do not agree? No, all of them are ponderings and imaginings of the minds that penned the words. To paraphrase Mark Twain “God created man in his image and man returned the favor”.I've read that quote before by Mark Twain – pretty close to the truth, huh?
Well, bro, I tend to agree with you more than I disagree with you. However it is sad to have these “eye openers” sometimes. Sometimes I think I was much better before I began studying the bible. Other times I am grateful to have open eyes. I suppose if I could do it all over again, I would want to come to the same conclusions. I feel like I have a more realistic view of God for me now.
Well, I better head to the store and get the grocery shopping done (a task I don't really enjoy at all). Good to chat with you, bro.
Take care,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,14:52) I've read that quote before by Mark Twain – pretty close to the truth, huh? Well, bro, I tend to agree with you more than I disagree with you. However it is sad to have these “eye openers” sometimes. Sometimes I think I was much better before I began studying the bible. Other times I am grateful to have open eyes. I suppose if I could do it all over again, I would want to come to the same conclusions. I feel like I have a more realistic view of God for me now.
Well, I better head to the store and get the grocery shopping done (a task I don't really enjoy at all). Good to chat with you, bro.
Take care,
Mandy
Good to chat with you as well.Be safe, love your family, sped time with your friends. Our lives are the best indicator of God, not some book. I believe (and it is just that, a belief) that we all have a divine “spark” within us.
Humanity is a vine and like any vinedresser or gardener, he prunes the vine so it will be more fruitful. If he left the dying branches, then what about the poor souls that will be planted there. God often commanded Israel to snap of a whole branch and got angry when they left some of it to grow again.
It's easy to judge KJ, but if you saw the whole tree, then you would see that it is mercy to prune the tree so that more souls will be in a position or culture with more blessing.
Also all problems of man come from man.
God is only trying to keep the whole tree alive for the age. If he didn't prune it, the whole thing might have died a long time ago.
Luke 23:31
For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”We may be in the times when the tree is dry and we do see all manner of evil and suffering. I don't blame God for one bit of that.
He gave us a beautiful planet that was originally a paradise. God wasn't the one to pollute and destroy it.
BTW, that picture is heart wrenching. What are we going to do to help?
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