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Quote (charity @ Aug. 13 2008,21:08) Hi Mandy Do You Think God is offended if we take comfort in another humans arms?
As in any human love that proceeds to be greater than what he God can draw from us.Are we permitted as Christians to love the lord god with all they heart and mind? While our partners come second?
that might work if the relationship isn't?
and for as much as to give our life for one that you Love?Doctrine can force a wedge of power and divide, with a sense of duty, much mistake doctrine for God?
Love
Charity
Hi Charity,didn't Jesus say, ” If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” Luk 14:26
Tim
Hi Charity,
I'm not quite sure what the question is, I'm sorry, but I do think that we are required to make our LORD first in all. However, the bible is pretty clear about women and their position under the man, and it's pretty clear regarding marriage. I do believe that once we have a husband that bar outright denial of God, we are to honor our husbands in all. Believe me, I have struggled with this. But I have also noticed that at the greatest point of my struggle and pain – comes the biggest blessings. I wonder why that is?
Much love to you sis,
MandyGood morning, Stu.
Quote The word faith is a nonsense
What doesn't make sense about it?Quote but the word trust implies a relationship based on previous experience (which is evidence).
You must not watch many chick movies? I can't believe your wife hasn't pulled you into a few movies where the wife and husband live together for many years only to find out one of them has another (secret) family somewhere?You can have previous experience with someone – you may even trust them fully – but this is not true evidence of their loyality. Otherwise Hollywood would go broke!
Nope. It always goes back to faith….Quote And what comfort does it bring?
I don't want to ruin the suprise!
I guess you'll find out when you need it.Quote Faith is believing without evidence and that is not a basis for hope.
Maybe this is the problem in that you stumble right over the very foundation and proceed to build the structure……If you had evidence there would be no need for hope. Do you see?
Quote I remember asking, I think in the Nature of Faith thread if anyone could tell me anything I do on faith. I don’t remember a single convincing answer.
Perhaps your pride will not allow to see anyone as presenting a good case? I remember there were some good ideas being tossed around during that conversation.I know that your hope is that other's will open their minds to the possibility of science and evidence rather than believing in fantasies, however you seem unable to open your mind and consider that your path may be off course a bit. If you want other's to flex their minds, please be willing to flex yours.
Quote and even the devout who desire to follow ‘god’s plan’ are still relying completely on their internal experience / trust system to analyse the world and other humans and make sound decisions.
I sincerely would like to know which Christians you are using as a rule to base your opinions off of? I have some very intelligent Christian friends and family who weigh and consider all before making decisions. Really, Stu, I do believe you let your pride get the best of you sometimes.Why mock faith's guidance, anyway? It has served many very well in this life. There are many success stories from all walks of life where folks have employed their faith to face the most amazing challenges; to discover the unknown, make way for new technology and the list goes on.
Quote ‘Soul’ is another useless word! I don’t know what a soul is.
It's what connects us to our God, our planet, our fellow human, the animals and plants……it's what makes us all things good. Those that have turned to unimaginable evil have lost their souls, imo.I don't think a soul can be weighed in terms of the scale. However it can be measured by the acts of kindess that we leave behind us.
I always thoroughly enjoy our conversations, brother.
Love,
MandyQuote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,21:09) I take nothing on faith.
Ahem. Cough cough.What about that singularity that on it's own accord produced all this amazing design and tech that not even all the PhDs of the world can match? Even one atom is greater than all PhDs achievements combined.
You seem to put a lot of faith in that belief. I mean not just faith but a lot of faith. I sure don't accept such a thing, but to teach it is to really have faith I would say.
See you have faith. Now the question is what do you have faith in.
Even if you continue to deny it, then I could also make the argument that you have faith in having no faith. That is still a form of trust when you think about it.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 13 2008,21:54) Quote (charity @ Aug. 13 2008,21:08) Hi Mandy Do You Think God is offended if we take comfort in another humans arms?
As in any human love that proceeds to be greater than what he God can draw from us.Are we permitted as Christians to love the lord god with all they heart and mind? While our partners come second?
that might work if the relationship isn't?
and for as much as to give our life for one that you Love?Doctrine can force a wedge of power and divide, with a sense of duty, much mistake doctrine for God?
Love
Charity
Hi Charity,didn't Jesus say, ” If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” Luk 14:26
Tim
Hi Tim
Yes it is true that Luke said Jesus said that….
Quote (charity @ Aug. 15 2008,20:52) Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 13 2008,21:54) Quote (charity @ Aug. 13 2008,21:08) Hi Mandy Do You Think God is offended if we take comfort in another humans arms?
As in any human love that proceeds to be greater than what he God can draw from us.Are we permitted as Christians to love the lord god with all they heart and mind? While our partners come second?
that might work if the relationship isn't?
and for as much as to give our life for one that you Love?Doctrine can force a wedge of power and divide, with a sense of duty, much mistake doctrine for God?
Love
Charity
Hi Charity,didn't Jesus say, ” If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” Luk 14:26
Tim
Hi Tim
Yes it is true that Luke said Jesus said that….
I don't understand why He would say that when He also said to love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, honor thy mother and father. But unless you hate them all you can't be my desciple.
Tim
Are you hinting that Jesus was bipolar? Or that — gasp — all of the words attributed to him didn't actually come out of his mouth.
It seems quite obvious that His statement was stated as an extreme to drive home a point. Within the book of Luke Jesus affirms that we are to 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind. This is also an extreme and sets up the comparison of how our love for the things of God should far exceed our love for the things of this world.
In my opinion – Wm
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 15 2008,23:49) Are you hinting that Jesus was bipolar? Or that — gasp — all of the words attributed to him didn't actually come out of his mouth.
Kevin,You of all people realize that language was very different back in the day of Jesus. It is quite possible that in the translations the true meaning of what “hating mother and father…” was lost.
Even today “bad” really means “I like that or good”. Or we say to someone in joking, “You are soooo bad!” Which really means we like them and they are being funny or whatever. You get my point.
To judge the written word too harshly might not be wise?
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 15 2008,12:26) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 15 2008,23:49) Are you hinting that Jesus was bipolar? Or that — gasp — all of the words attributed to him didn't actually come out of his mouth.
Kevin,You of all people realize that language was very different back in the day of Jesus. It is quite possible that in the translations the true meaning of what “hating mother and father…” was lost.
Not so much so that we know it indicates an utter devotion to Jesus. Everyone knows that without balance of relationships in life, some will suffer. I have seen relationships fail miserably when one spouse (or a parent) put service to God in front of all others to the point where families were neglected.
Quote Even today “bad” really means “I like that or good”. Or we say to someone in joking, “You are soooo bad!” Which really means we like them and they are being funny or whatever. You get my point. To judge the written word too harshly might not be wise?
Love,
Mandy
Or perhaps we must realize that basing our beliefs on a 2000 year old book may not be wise?“A religion needs to have a wisdom that is dynamic and not fixed by a dogma that may have fitted one age but not another.” – Shahin Bakhradnia
Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 15 2008,23:20) Quote (charity @ Aug. 15 2008,20:52) Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 13 2008,21:54) Quote (charity @ Aug. 13 2008,21:08) Hi Mandy Do You Think God is offended if we take comfort in another humans arms?
As in any human love that proceeds to be greater than what he God can draw from us.Are we permitted as Christians to love the lord god with all they heart and mind? While our partners come second?
that might work if the relationship isn't?
and for as much as to give our life for one that you Love?Doctrine can force a wedge of power and divide, with a sense of duty, much mistake doctrine for God?
Love
Charity
Hi Charity,didn't Jesus say, ” If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” Luk 14:26
Tim
Hi Tim
Yes it is true that Luke said Jesus said that….
I don't understand why He would say that when He also said to love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, honor thy mother and father. But unless you hate them all you can't be my desciple. Tim
HI Tim… So much about “Hate” that’s even about the feelings that rise over the understanding of this quote, as unclear clanging symbols, we need to judge it out.
What is Hate?
It’s good to say “Love even your enemies”, and it’s wicked that we hate anyone?
yet even our own family members at certain moments act in adversary to us via instincts
it is hard where the emotion of Hate is installed in every creature, and to say we do not have or are not capable of, is to be senseless…That is my thinking of perhaps what the verse is about!
Should it be brothers and sisters control your Natural Hate emotions?
Control the Natural wickedness in you?
AND as an instruction of Law Do Not hate…It Is a Natural reaction to vexations?
WE can’t control the forces that raise against us, Mother Father Sister Brother!
Chronic jealously twists till it tends to resemble confused Hatred?
Love Hate relationships?
In Jesus Day… If you left your Family to follow Him, you Might say that the family left behind would have be offended, and feeling unloved that you left, the words you Have to Hate your mother brother sister sound Like someone was forced to Leave, or was the one left behind?Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2008,08:33) “A religion needs to have a wisdom that is dynamic and not fixed by a dogma that may have fitted one age but not another.” – Shahin Bakhradnia
Loving your brother doesn't fit into this age and time? Forgiving one another and bearing with one another doesn't fit into our generation? HmmmThe wisdom Jesus brought is universal and timeless.
Mandy
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 15 2008,22:34) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2008,08:33) “A religion needs to have a wisdom that is dynamic and not fixed by a dogma that may have fitted one age but not another.” – Shahin Bakhradnia
Loving your brother doesn't fit into this age and time? Forgiving one another and bearing with one another doesn't fit into our generation? HmmmThe wisdom Jesus brought is universal and timeless.
Mandy
You are picking and choosing Mandy . I did not say there weren't good things in what Jesus said, or even some good things in other parts of the bible. But don't forget, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2008,23:03) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 15 2008,22:34) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2008,08:33) “A religion needs to have a wisdom that is dynamic and not fixed by a dogma that may have fitted one age but not another.” – Shahin Bakhradnia
Loving your brother doesn't fit into this age and time? Forgiving one another and bearing with one another doesn't fit into our generation? HmmmThe wisdom Jesus brought is universal and timeless.
Mandy
You are picking and choosing Mandy . I did not say there weren't good things in what Jesus said, or even some good things in other parts of the bible. But don't forget, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
OK.But NO religion can be 'dynamic' and 'fit into ages for all times'. You would need a new religion ever 20 years at that rate. So I think Bakhradnia may be wishful thinking?
Have a good weekend, Kevin.
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 16 2008,11:23) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2008,23:03) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 15 2008,22:34) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 16 2008,08:33) “A religion needs to have a wisdom that is dynamic and not fixed by a dogma that may have fitted one age but not another.” – Shahin Bakhradnia
Loving your brother doesn't fit into this age and time? Forgiving one another and bearing with one another doesn't fit into our generation? HmmmThe wisdom Jesus brought is universal and timeless.
Mandy
You are picking and choosing Mandy . I did not say there weren't good things in what Jesus said, or even some good things in other parts of the bible. But don't forget, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
OK.But NO religion can be 'dynamic' and 'fit into ages for all times'. You would need a new religion ever 20 years at that rate. So I think Bakhradnia may be wishful thinking?
Have a good weekend, Kevin.
Mandy
It can, if it does not make rules that fit the moral compass of the times and then expect those rules to be everlasting. Bakhradnia was actually speaking about the basic Zoroastrianism, based on the Gathas of Zarathushtra. It is probably the closest you will get to an ancient spiritual work that is not full of religious dogma only relevant to the time it was recited. The basic premise of the Gathas is good thoughts, words, and deeds. That is indeed a timeless concept.t8
Stu: I take nothing on faith.
Quote Ahem. Cough cough.
What about that singularity that on it's own accord produced all this amazing design and tech that not even all the PhDs of the world can match? Even one atom is greater than all PhDs achievements combined.
You seem to put a lot of faith in that belief. I mean not just faith but a lot of faith. I sure don't accept such a thing, but to teach it is to really have faith I would say.
See you have faith. Now the question is what do you have faith in.
Even if you continue to deny it, then I could also make the argument that you have faith in having no faith. That is still a form of trust when you think about it.
I can’t decide whether it is your litigious dishonesty or poor memory that is the more frustrating part of conversing with you. Are you intentionally misrepresenting me to make yourself look clever or have you simply had this brilliant idea, forgetting what I wrote the last couple of times we went through this?I DON’T KNOW what happened before a split second after the big bang. I DO NOT TAKE ON FAITH this component of my worldview because the evidence for the big bang would only be denied by the ignorant and the perverse. I have written these things consistently in the relevant threads.
It is religious zealots who know almost nothing about the universe they inhabit but claim to know everything.
If you cannot accept uncertainty at least don’t project your insecurity onto me.
Stuart
Hi Not3
Stu: but the word trust implies a relationship based on previous experience (which is evidence).
Quote You must not watch many chick movies? I can't believe your wife hasn't pulled you into a few movies where the wife and husband live together for many years only to find out one of them has another (secret) family somewhere? You can have previous experience with someone – you may even trust them fully – but this is not true evidence of their loyality. Otherwise Hollywood would go broke! Nope. It always goes back to faith….
I tend to avoid chick flicks!You have to make a judgement based on your past experiences. If those experiences are not up to detecting deceit then it does not mean they are not evidence for trust, it means they were not up to the job in this case. I guess few people are so capable of reading another person to eliminate the possibility of being deceived. There is lots of evidence but we just don’t realise we have stored it in our brains.
Stu: And what comfort does it bring?
Quote I don't want to ruin the suprise! I guess you'll find out when you need it.
Just as I thought! It is like the comfort a drunk finds in the bottle!!Stu: Faith is believing without evidence and that is not a basis for hope.
Quote Maybe this is the problem in that you stumble right over the very foundation and proceed to build the structure…If you had evidence there would be no need for hope. Do you see?
The evidence is not a crystal ball. It is the sum total of the history of your self-knowledge. There are no guarantees. All you can do is estimate your chance of success at a new venture based on your experience so far. That is the foundation. What foundation could there possibly be in just pure blind faith?Stu: I remember asking, I think in the Nature of Faith thread if anyone could tell me anything I do on faith. I don’t remember a single convincing answer.
Quote Perhaps your pride will not allow to see anyone as presenting a good case? I remember there were some good ideas being tossed around during that conversation.
Well I was not convinced. Bollocks to ‘pride’; it is irrelevant. You could have told me which argument you thought was most convincing. You will have to decide whether I have the integrity to openly recognise a good argument. I am sure you have enough evidence built up to judge whether I am to be trusted.Quote I know that your hope is that other's will open their minds to the possibility of science and evidence rather than believing in fantasies, however you seem unable to open your mind and consider that your path may be off course a bit. If you want other's to flex their minds, please be willing to flex yours.
I have always openly said I hold open a tiny chink of a possibility that there is a god of the kind you are besotted with. Have a look here at what Nick, t8 and some others have tried to fill that chink with. Obvious fallacies, lies and doctrine is my memory of it. Do you accept you could be wrong?Stu: and even the devout who desire to follow ‘god’s plan’ are still relying completely on their internal experience / trust system to analyse the world and other humans and make sound decisions.
Quote I sincerely would like to know which Christians you are using as a rule to base your opinions off of? I have some very intelligent Christian friends and family who weigh and consider all before making decisions.
That’s exactly what I said! All humans do this. Those christian friends do not just ‘follow god’s plan’, they would have no idea about the subconscious elements that go into making decisions.Quote Really, Stu, I do believe you let your pride get the best of you sometimes.
Do you accept you could be wrong?Quote Why mock faith's guidance, anyway? It has served many very well in this life. There are many success stories from all walks of life where folks have employed their faith to face the most amazing challenges; to discover the unknown, make way for new technology and the list goes on. I don’t think faith has any guidance to give. Unless believing in astrology caused someone to drive a different way to work and it was a quicker route… You have not given any examples, and I don’t think there really are any at all. These things can only be accidental because there is no basis in fact for faith-based decision-making. Even if you are following biblical advice, you are still doing something according to a human-written recipe. There is no discernible difference between god and not god in that situation. A real leap of faith would be developing the idea that you could jump 20 metres off the ground without assistance. No human has ever done anything like that; there is no evidence on which to base that optimism. Is that what people have used faith to achieve? I don’t think so.
Stu: ‘Soul’ is another useless word! I don’t know what a soul is.
It's what connects us to our God, our planet, our fellow human, the animals and plants……it's what makes us all things good. Those that have turned to unimaginable evil have lost their souls, imo. I don't think a soul can be weighed in terms of the scale. However it can be measured by the acts of kindess that we leave behind us.
You can’t say what it is. You can only give me its supposed properties. These are properties of the functions of the human brain (including perceiving imaginary gods to ‘connect to’).What IS a soul?
Quote I always thoroughly enjoy our conversations, brother.
Same!Stuart
Hey Stuart – good morning to you.
Quote There are no guarantees. All you can do is estimate your chance of success at a new venture based on your experience so far.
And then, after that? what do you do after that? You hope and PRAY you got it right!
Especially if it is a life and death venture.Quote I remember asking, I think in the Nature of Faith thread if anyone could tell me anything I do on faith. I don’t remember a single convincing answer.
Well, then your a hard nut to crack! Because I remember there being some good chats there. I'd have to go back and revisit it for specifics. Just because you weren't convinced doesn't mean they weren't good arguments and other's would perhaps be convinced on their merit. You, sir, have just made up your mind! Quote Do you accept you could be wrong?
Speaking of “minds made up”…… Yes, I do accept that I could be wrong. However, faith allows me to hope always that I am right! See how that works? The result is peace of mind.Quote Well I was not convinced. Bollocks to ‘pride’; it is irrelevant. You could have told me which argument you thought was most convincing. You will have to decide whether I have the integrity to openly recognise a good argument. I am sure you have enough evidence built up to judge whether I am to be trusted.
Fair enough. I'll try to look for the arguments and give it a try with you.Quote What IS a soul?
I gave you my “supposed” property make-up of a soul because that is all any of us have. Do you have something else to work from?Love,
MandyTruth remains the same no matter how many ages pass.
It is the things of this world that will pass away, but the truth will remain.Satan was defeated by a wisdom that predated him.
Why do they Keep Satan in this world?
At some stage he must be considered gone and this earth made new?
As the false prophets whom keep face, they also shall reign on earth, as their Kingdom come, while he is exist alive, they shall not enter the fire of the redundant Having no employer Hired for wage, see these that preach his health, and for as long as they are legally able to keep him alive, he lives from eternity to eternity, and all the people may not sort out salvation from him, from confused business of paying respected attention, looking over the shoulder, which is worship from weakened knees, and perversely accounted as a worthy testimony, that only calls fire down from heaven, that has once already been dissolved into the earth, and re catapulted far away by crafty words of divertive divisions.-charity
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