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Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2008,06:54) Hi Kevin, At the end of any day, and certainly at the end of any quest for truth and knowledge……..faith remains.
Hold tight to it!
Love,
Mandy
Isn't faith the single thing that most gets in the way of a quest for truth? My observation is when considering things that are properly called facts, those with the most faith know the least truth. Some of them invent an alternative truth, and write it down in a book and eventually persecute others who don't believe it. I think that last point is something we might agree on. What is the difference between any kind of faith and what you call 'dried ink'?Stuart
Quote Lets’ be painfully clear, so people can see your attempt to pull the wool over their eyes: Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Heaven is defined as the ‘firmament’:
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven.
Talk about “pulling wool over people's eyes.”
The Bible obviously uses the word “heaven” in a variety of meanings:
–The spiritual heavens, where God is said to reside:
–The heavens of earths atmosphere of Gen 1:8, that you speak. This is where dew and frost form (Ge 27:28; Job 38:29), the birds fly (De 4:17; Pr 30:19; Mt 6:26), the winds blow (Ps 78:26), lightning flashes (Lu 17:24), and the clouds float and drop their rain, snow, or hailstones (Jos 10:11; 1Ki 18:45; Isa 55:10; Ac 14:17). “The sky” is sometimes meant, that is, the apparent or visual dome or vault arching over the earth.—Mt 16:1-3; Ac 1:10, 11.
–Outer space. The physical “heavens” extend through earth’s atmosphere and beyond to the regions of outer space with their stellar bodies, “all the army of the heavens”—sun, moon, stars, and constellations. (De 4:19; Isa 13:10; 1Co 15:40, 41; Heb 11:12; Ps 8:3; 19:1-6)The word 'heaven' or 'heavens' has more than one meaning. The fact that you decided that “heaven” can only have this one meaning would seem to be right in line with other things you've concluded about Genesis.
In your mind, “day” can only have one meaning, despite all the days being lumped into one day. According to the Bible and common sense and language in general, people understand that words sometimes mean more than one thing. The Bible shows that “heaven” does have more than one meaning. You can take it to mean as you suggest, but it doesn't say that, one way or the other. Hence, like everything else you've suggest, no contradiction. Just, you, desparately wanting the Bible to be wrong.
1 In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.
3 And God proceeded to say: “Let light come to be.” Then there came to be light. 4 After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. 5 And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.
The thing, Stu, the “heavens” referred to in verse 1 could be the heavens that are referred to in these verses:
DEUTERONOMY 4:19
“and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah your God has apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens.”ISAIAH 13:10
“For the very stars of the heavens and their constellations of Ke′sil will not flash forth their light; the sun will actually grow dark at its going forth, and the moon itself will not cause its light to shine.”1 CORINTHIANS 15:40-41
“And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, star differs from star in glory.”PSALM 8:3
“When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers, The moon and the stars that you have prepared,”PSALM 19:1-6
“The heavens are declaring the glory of God; And of the work of his hands the expanse is telling. One day after another day causes speech to bubble forth, And one night after another night shows forth knowledge. There is no speech, and there are no words; No voice on their part is being heard. Into all the earth their measuring line has gone out, And to the extremity of the productive land their utterances. In them he has set a tent for the sun, And it is like a bridegroom when coming out of his nuptial chamber; It exults as a mighty man does to run in a path. From one extremity of the heavens is its going forth, And its [finished] circuit is to their [other] extremities; And there is nothing concealed from its heat.”JEREMIAH 33:22
“Just as the army of the heavens cannot be counted, neither the sand of the sea be measured, so I shall multiply the seed of David my servant and the Levites who are ministering to me.’””ISAIAH 40:26
““Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.”Now, you can say that they didn't know where exactly the stars were or how far away they were. But, they call the area that encompases, sun, moon, and stars as the heavens, what most of us would call space or the universe.
So, in the account of the creation of man, the animals, plants, etc, when it begins by saying that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” it could well be referring to the universe including the earth (all things), the big bang, or however you want to describe it.
Your argument that the “earth” wasn't created at the same time as the universe I find a very strange argument.
Since we're focusing on the earth, that is included in the statement, but the statement could just as easily have been: 'In the beginning, God created everything, all matter.' Of course, it doesn't say that, but then, neither does it say: 'In the beginning, God created the expance [firmament] and the earth.'
Since we never find the word “universe” in the scriptures, and since the heavens are sometimes used to refer to the place where stars exist, how, Stu, would it have simply been explained that In the beginning, God created the universe?
One way, would be to say: IN the beginning, God created the heavens (and the earth), … the earth being the subject being discussed.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,07:16) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2008,06:54) Hi Kevin, At the end of any day, and certainly at the end of any quest for truth and knowledge……..faith remains.
Hold tight to it!
Love,
Mandy
Isn't faith the single thing that most gets in the way of a quest for truth? My observation is when considering things that are properly called facts, those with the most faith know the least truth. Some of them invent an alternative truth, and write it down in a book and eventually persecute others who don't believe it. I think that last point is something we might agree on. What is the difference between any kind of faith and what you call 'dried ink'?Stuart
Faith has so many shooting arrows,
What is faith to be established on? Without first the personal internal search, and self judgments, to find out what we ourselves have been sown from, in foundations.
Sown from is Loyalty to, and faith can then become as stepping out with confidence and faith?Also emotions are running, like the sea that can't be calmed, Oh HOW MUCH, desire disire for that oneness, and how it much hurts when you care for someone and have meet with them in a mere joint system of faith, yet time came, they discover they have not judged their own faith within searched
Quote (charity @ Aug. 11 2008,09:14) Faith has so many shooting arrows,
What is faith to be established on? Without first the personal internal search, and self judgments, to find out what we ourselves have been sown from, in foundations.
Sown from is Loyalty to, and faith can then become as stepping out with confidence and faith?
Hi Charity,You are correct. Faith should be established on internal search.
Unfortunately, for many people their foundation of faith is based only on what they have been told to believe, and not on their search.Tim
Tim ye, always is a choice to understand, and sometimes the separations are minor. AS change comes, separations started the pain and comforted in separations perhaps will heal, it is not possible for any to wear the likeness.
I believe There is a faith that we desire from each other, that is the faith in ME, THAT RE ALL REQUIRE this forth, to allow us to be at own understanding of growth.
What is insane is we are required to be uniform, when really the unity is perhaps hidden in excepting each other as all are made in vanity, mourning for how to change ourselves to become more desirable to others, this has no control strings, but has the power that we may rein in the honor that is highest of faith with patience to our transformation, and likeness with the good will of God, that he installed with everyone of use, not gained by joining any mind sets but by freedom of individuals.- charityQuote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,00:45) You say it like it is a disability.
Yes that is true.I had that disability once and really couldn't stand anyone who believed in God. But then my eyes were opened. Not only did I have a revelation, but later I saw how logic also demands a creator.
I now see how silly it is to believe in a singularity that on its own accord came up with stuff that not even the greatest intellect of man can compete with. A singularity with less intelligence than a blowfly. You get the idea.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,00:45) Did your spiritual lawyer suggest adopting that phrase? From what I have seen in churches, on television and in scripture, understanding that there is a god is like falling victim to a confidence trickster or a clever cold-reading psychic or hypnosis. The two are indistinguishable, except for the scale of the delusion. Peer pressure and probably genetic makeup keep Christianity going, but it is a dying belief in the mainstream version. The childish need for an imaginary substitute parent figure is strong too.
You appear to not be able to look at the possibility of God's existence without tacking on the likes of the Trinity Broadcast Network and the like. That is sad for you because your bias actually blinds you from the possibility of discovering truth. Similarly if a Jewish doctor had a cure for something and you reject it because of his Jewishness, then you are the one that misses out are you not.I agree that there is a lot of rubbish that calls itself Christian. But there is rubbish associated with any movement, belief, science, or industry. There will always be those who see anything as an excuse to make a buck. But you need to look beyond that and look at what it is really about. If you can't do that, then you are limiting your possibilities.
But I am well aware just how strong bias is. So strong in fact that some will reject obvious truth and fact just to keep their bias.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,00:45) And some with faith are wicked. The US prison population comprises 0.23% atheists from a general population of 15% (more likely 25%, or maybe not as high as other western countries, with so many god genes amongst the US founders). You can bet your US convict is a christian.
Correct.The bible doesn't teach a christian to non-christian division, but a righteous and wicked division.
Calling yourself a christian doesn't make you righteous or wicked. It is by the way you live that shows who you are.
That said, the USA has had great blessings in many ways. The amount of people that believe in God and righteousness certainly helps that country. But where there is blessings/prosperity, there is also more ways for evil to express itself. Perhaps in some countries some cannot even afford to own a gun and therefore less harm is the result. This also gives rise to those who pretend to be Christian for gain like getting a reduced sentence by pretending to be on the straight and narrow. Not rocket science aye Stu? Anyone can see what is going on if they choose to open their eyes.
It’s a Light
Without Love faith dissolves into Insanity- charity
Love is greatest
Love testifies from the heights
Faith ALONE is deceptive
Faith is a tool to lift us out of corruption
Love cannot be taught by schools instruction
Love is a gift from our creator
Faith is taught before a child understands!!!!
As The first communications with a parent is the perception of attitude to odedience.
Responding to emotions, anger, danger, joy, Love, jealousy, are sown, expected, until old enough to understand the meaning of..to set in array of persnal judgemts
The depth of warring against responding to the emotional of those set over us, and are deeply in bedded in a three year old child, and continues till every thought is taken into captivity till chains of the matching emotions are dissolved to unconditnal Love and maturity has neared to arrived. -charityQuote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,07:16) My observation is when considering things that are properly called facts, those with the most faith know the least truth.
You must not observe very many Christians?Just because someone has great faith doesn't mean they check their brains at the door.
Faith is required of every body for simple living.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2008,17:05) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,07:16) My observation is when considering things that are properly called facts, those with the most faith know the least truth.
You must not observe very many Christians?Just because someone has great faith doesn't mean they check their brains at the door.
Faith is required of every body for simple living.
I take nothing on faith. Neither alternative medicine, nor love, nor waking up tomorrow nor atheism do I take on faith. there is real evidence behind all my conclusions and actions.Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 09 2008,13:45) WIT, I guess I gave you 3 solid, “No's” to your questions…….in your mind am I still considered a Christian?
Hope so!
Mandy
There are far too many variations in people who call themselves Christians for me to be the final judge of anyone's Christianity. I just wonder if, for you, the Christian label is an expression of familiarity rather than an outpouring of personal faith. In other words, I wonder if you wouldn't be just as happy to praise “Allah” if you lived in a place where people practiced a version of the muslim faith that personally appealed to you.It is not a question of labels as much as it is a question of where your convictions really reside. Are you committed to your personal “God experience”, or are you committed to the God described in the bible, no matter how much that God might differ from your expectations.
(As an aside, I am not judging you as much as I am trying to understand you. Personally, I find myself conflicted about very similar issues.)
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,21:09) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2008,17:05) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,07:16) My observation is when considering things that are properly called facts, those with the most faith know the least truth.
You must not observe very many Christians?Just because someone has great faith doesn't mean they check their brains at the door.
Faith is required of every body for simple living.
I take nothing on faith. Neither alternative medicine, nor love, nor waking up tomorrow nor atheism do I take on faith. there is real evidence behind all my conclusions and actions.Stuart
Boy have you deluded your mind! Believe what you will, but you cannot know by any facts or proof that you will wake up tomorrow. There are guesses and hopes based on stats for your age and health…….but stats are not guarantees.I'll say it again, in the end only faith remains. Even for those who think they don't need it. Even the strict Atheist on the Titanic needed to believe that they would get out alive!
Love,
Mandyalways when fear has been attached to a faith, it becomes forced, as a big God stands up there dangling you over the cliff of Life…saying ARE YOU GONA BELIEVE, NOW!!
what is Hope then?..Hope is a form of controled Faith?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 12 2008,04:07) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 09 2008,13:45) WIT, I guess I gave you 3 solid, “No's” to your questions…….in your mind am I still considered a Christian?
Hope so!
Mandy
There are far too many variations in people who call themselves Christians for me to be the final judge of anyone's Christianity. I just wonder if, for you, the Christian label is an expression of familiarity rather than an outpouring of personal faith. In other words, I wonder if you wouldn't be just as happy to praise “Allah” if you lived in a place where people practiced a version of the muslim faith that personally appealed to you.It is not a question of labels as much as it is a question of where your convictions really reside. Are you committed to your personal “God experience”, or are you committed to the God described in the bible, no matter how much that God might differ from your expectations.
(As an aside, I am not judging you as much as I am trying to understand you. Personally, I find myself conflicted about very similar issues.)
Hi WIT,Sorry I missed this post to me earlier.
Good question – would I be just as happy praising Allah? If I were born in a country where they praised Allah then the answer would be yes! But if I were to live in a Muslim country for several years I would not convert. I am staying with the truth I have been given, and the truth that I am convinced of. Does this help?
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 12 2008,05:12) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,21:09) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2008,17:05) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,07:16) My observation is when considering things that are properly called facts, those with the most faith know the least truth.
You must not observe very many Christians?Just because someone has great faith doesn't mean they check their brains at the door.
Faith is required of every body for simple living.
I take nothing on faith. Neither alternative medicine, nor love, nor waking up tomorrow nor atheism do I take on faith. there is real evidence behind all my conclusions and actions.Stuart
Boy have you deluded your mind! Believe what you will, but you cannot know by any facts or proof that you will wake up tomorrow. There are guesses and hopes based on stats for your age and health…….but stats are not guarantees.I'll say it again, in the end only faith remains. Even for those who think they don't need it. Even the strict Atheist on the Titanic needed to believe that they would get out alive!
Love,
Mandy
I don't need a guarantee that I will wake up tomorrow. My prediction that I will is based on the evidence that I have done so every morning thusfar, and as you say a kind of probability could be calculated for it. I don't see where there is a need for believing things without evidence.Belief is not faith. Maybe you have to be non-religious to really understand, I'm not sure: there is no need to hang on to fanciful hope of things imagined, it is good enough to accept that what you 'see' is what you get and to have the wisdom to realise the extent of your own robustness and mortality. Humans are very poor at estimating likelihood at the best of times and adding a god in which you trust for no good reason just makes life needlessly complicated, aside from the ethical problems it brings. The comfort value of god belief has never appealed to me because it just does not ring true with the rest of my human experience, which has not been extraordinary in any paticular way.
I see no example of faith in my life and no need for it.
Stuart
Stu,
Have you factored in the possibility of false evidence into your equation for belief? For instance, the evidence your wife shows you that she loves you could be just a show, and she's sneeking out on you. You get the picture.
Quote The comfort value of god belief has never appealed to me because it just does not ring true with the rest of my human experience, which has not been extraordinary in any paticular way.
Your life isn't over yet. You may very well see a need for the comfort that only God can bring. I've known a few Atheists who have turned to God in moments of deepest despair.Quote I see no example of faith in my life and no need for it.
Some refuse to see, they have duped their very own minds. Faith remains with every soul. It's what allows us to hope for anything we don't presently have.Love,
MandyHi Not3
Quote Have you factored in the possibility of false evidence into your equation for belief? For instance, the evidence your wife shows you that she loves you could be just a show, and she's sneeking out on you. You get the picture.
Of course it is always possible to be duped. The word faith is a nonsense but the word trust implies a relationship based on previous experience (which is evidence). Being duped applies to religious belief more than any other field of human endeavour. There are crop circles which is false evidence for alien presence, there are explainable lights in the sky which are false evidence for extraterrestrial spacecraft, life cycles that synchronise with the moon are false evidence for astrology and so on. At least it can be argued there is evidence, even if it is bogus. With religious belief there is not even any false evidence, as far as I can make out. The illusion from design could be I suppose.Now ask yourself which is the best anti-duping method we have? Is it bibles and priests and faith or science and your own conscience and subconscience working your sum knowledge about your fellow humans?
Quote Your life isn't over yet. You may very well see a need for the comfort that only God can bring. I've known a few Atheists who have turned to God in moments of deepest despair.
And what comfort does it bring?Stu: I see no example of faith in my life and no need for it.
Quote Some refuse to see, they have duped their very own minds. Faith remains with every soul. It's what allows us to hope for anything we don't presently have.
I disagree strongly. Faith is believing without evidence and that is not a basis for hope. If you have a good understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses you have a reason to hope. I remember asking, I think in the Nature of Faith thread if anyone could tell me anything I do on faith. I don’t remember a single convincing answer.We are collecting, sorting and filing relevant experiences of the world the whole time (sleep is partly a time for the librarian in the head to organise the storage of our experiences, discarding the irrelevant ones) and even the devout who desire to follow ‘god’s plan’ are still relying completely on their internal experience / trust system to analyse the world and other humans and make sound decisions. There is so much going on in the subconscious that we cannot be aware of but drives our thinking that I think the word faith may be one of the most useless words in the universe. ‘Soul’ is another useless word! I don’t know what a soul is. Do you? Is it just a short word that describes the biochemistry in our brains? I can’t see what else it could be, and the Catholic and Buddhist ideas of soul just don’t stand up when you consider how twins form from a single zygote. I think soul is another invented concept, like limbo, heaven, hell, god, saviour, trinity or revelation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29
Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 13 2008,02:21) Stu, Have you factored in the possibility of false evidence into your equation for belief? For instance, the evidence your wife shows you that she loves you could be just a show, and she's sneeking out on you. You get the picture.
Quote The comfort value of god belief has never appealed to me because it just does not ring true with the rest of my human experience, which has not been extraordinary in any paticular way.
Your life isn't over yet. You may very well see a need for the comfort that only God can bring. I've known a few Atheists who have turned to God in moments of deepest despair.Quote I see no example of faith in my life and no need for it.
Some refuse to see, they have duped their very own minds. Faith remains with every soul. It's what allows us to hope for anything we don't presently have.Love,
Mandy
Hi MandyDo You Think God is offended if we take comfort in another humans arms?
As in any human love that proceeds to be greater than what he God can draw from us.Are we permitted as Christians to love the lord god with all they heart and mind? While our partners come second?
that might work if the relationship isn't?
and for as much as to give our life for one that you Love?Doctrine can force a wedge of power and divide, with a sense of duty, much mistake doctrine for God?
Love
Charity
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