LET THERE BE LIGHT!

[Lightenup]

Hi WhatIsTrue,

I too believe that the sun was not there till the fourth day, it was not made or in existence before then. It seems to be a problem for others as it is impossible for photosynthesis to take place without the light from the sun as far as we understand. I purpose a different thought…the light of day one is the Son of God and this light provided what the plants needed. In Revelation there is no need for the sun because the Son provides what is needed.

Rev 21:22-23
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
NASU

Rev 22:4-5
5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
NASU

Are there plants in “the city.” It speaks of the tree of life that is there.

Just think about it,
LU

[WhatIsTrue]

LightenUp,

I should point out that I am actually questioning the whole account on a rational basis, but I appreciate that your beliefs actually attempt to work with the passage as written.

I am in a skeptical phase of my spiritual journey, so a lot of my latest posts will reflect that.

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
Has reason become your ultimate test?
If so is that wise?

[Lightenup]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 31 2009,12:07)

LightenUp, I should point out that I am actually questioning the whole account on a rational basis, but I appreciate that your beliefs actually attempt to work with the passage as written. I am in a skeptical phase of my spiritual journey, so a lot of my latest posts will reflect that.

Especially for you WIT,
Please take the time to watch both of these short videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ifzlwJL8s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e4zgJXPpI4

WIT, you are a miracle and known by God. These videos may lead you to worship.

God's love,
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Look at Jn12 in the NIV version.

35Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

Jesus did not want SONs but to draw men to be SONS OF GOD, so becoming SONS Of LIGHT Here is SONS of GOD who is LIGHT.

To continue Jn12

37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[g]
39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40″He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”[h] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Note the last line.

NONE OF the manuscripts from which this was translated contain the word JESUS.

So this is a falsehood placed by foolish translators and again the throne seen is that of God as also shown in Rev 4.

Jesus was never another deity with his own throne in heaven

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2009,00:39)

Hi WIT, Has reason become your ultimate test? If so is that wise?

On what basis should I make any judgments as to what is wise?

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 01 2009,02:04)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Mar. 31 2009,12:07) LightenUp, I should point out that I am actually questioning the whole account on a rational basis, but I appreciate that your beliefs actually attempt to work with the passage as written. I am in a skeptical phase of my spiritual journey, so a lot of my latest posts will reflect that. Especially for you WIT, Please take the time to watch both of these short videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ifzlwJL8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e4zgJXPpI4 WIT, you are a miracle and known by God.  These videos may lead you to worship. God's love, LU

LightenUp,

Thanks for the videos. However, to clarify where I am coming from a little further:

I do not doubt the miracle of that is my life – and life in general.  Nor do I doubt God.  I am simply taking a critical look at scripture, and whether or not it could/does reflect the true character and commandments of God.  Please do not confuse biblical skepticism with atheism.

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
So you are able to judge scripture?

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
We learn a little about God from Scripture.
Do we learn enough to go back and even judge those scriptures?

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2009,03:57)

Hi WIT, So you are able to judge scripture?

Do you have trouble distinguishing between right and wrong?

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,

Even we sin in unknown ways so in what way are we able to judge scripture?

[Stu]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2009,11:10)

Hi WIT, Even we sin in unknown ways so in what way are we able to judge scripture?

Scripture is factually incorrect and has no humanity. It is unfit for human consumption.

Stuart

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2009,06:10)

Hi WIT, Even we sin in unknown ways so in what way are we able to judge scripture?

1 Thessalonians 5:

Quote

21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

What part of this scripture do you disagree with?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2009,16:48)

Hi LU, Look at Jn12 in the NIV version. 35Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them. Jesus did not want SONs but to draw men to be SONS OF GOD, so becoming SONS Of LIGHT Here is SONS of GOD who is LIGHT. To continue Jn12 37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:   “Lord, who has believed our message      and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[g] 39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40″He has blinded their eyes      and deadened their hearts,   so they can neither see with their eyes,      nor understand with their hearts,      nor turn—and I would heal them.”[h] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. Note the last line. NONE OF the manuscripts from which this was translated contain the word JESUS. So this is a falsehood placed by foolish translators and again the throne seen is that of God as also shown in Rev 4. Jesus was never another deity with his own throne in heaven

Hi Nick,
The Son is on a throne.
The Son is also an everlasting Father to us and a brother.
When we are sons of Light, we are sons to both the Father and His Son. The Son is an everlasting Father to us as well as a brother.

Here we see that He has a throne:
Acts 2:30-36
30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set (one) upon his throne;

31 he foreseeing (this) spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.
ASV

Heb 1:8

8 but of the Son (he saith,) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
ASV

Here we see that He shall be called Everlasting Father:
Isa 9:6-7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father , Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.
ASV

Quote

41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

It may not say Jesus in the original manuscripts but it does refer to Him. He is the arm of the Lord and that was revealed to Isaiah.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Jesus is NOW seated with the Father as we are too in the Spirit.

The addition of Jesus in Jn12 by the NIV suggests instead that Jesus before he was sent HAD his own SEPARATE throne and angels.

Acts2
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Indeed Christ will rule ON EARTH from his throne, the throne of David.
Fantasy.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2009,14:22)

Hi LU, Jesus is NOW seated with the Father as we are too in the Spirit. The addition of Jesus in Jn12 by the NIV suggests instead that Jesus before he was sent HAD his own SEPARATE throne and angels. Acts2 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Indeed Christ will rule ON EARTH from his throne, the throne of David. Fantasy.

Nick,
To continue Jn12

37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[g]
39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40″He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”[h] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Regarding this passage, I believe that Isaiah was foretelling of a future event, not a present event at the time of Isaiah.

What do you mean “fantasy?”

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
This is what Isaiah saw

Is 6
1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

This is what the biased and deceived NIV translators added the word JESUS to in Jn12

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 01 2009,02:17)

David, T8, Maybe it's my literalist background, but you both seem to be appealing to “poetic license” where a lot of literal language is being used.  For example, check out these two versions of the same passage: Genesis 1: Quote 14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1: Quote 14-15 God spoke: “Lights! Come out!      Shine in Heaven's sky!   Separate Day from Night.      Mark seasons and days and years,   Lights in Heaven's sky to give light to Earth.”      And there it was. 16-19 God made two big lights, the larger      to take charge of Day,   The smaller to be in charge of Night;      and he made the stars.   God placed them in the heavenly sky      to light up Earth   And oversee Day and Night,      to separate light and dark.   God saw that it was good.   It was evening, it was morning—   Day Four. The first quote is from the NKJV and the second is from the Message.  In other words, the first is from a fairly literal biblical translation, and the latter is from the most “poetic” translation of scripture of which I am aware. In both, the scripture clearly states that God made the two great lights and placed them in the sky, on the fourth day! Where do you get any support for the theory that the sun and moon were already made, and already placed in the sky prior to the the “fourth day of creation”?  Are you simply making it up, because the text doesn't read as you might like it to read? If you can take the above passage and reshape its meaning, despite the actual meaning of the words in the passage, why do you object when a trinitarian reads John 1:1 and sees the Trinity?  Or better yet, why can't anyone take any passage and reshape it based on what they already believe to be true? The passage clearly states, God made the sun and moon and placed them in the sky on the “fourth day”?  Do you disagree?  If so, show me from the text where you get your own theory.

Yes God made to great lights when he created the heavens and earth we can at least both agree on that. And he used these great lights, one for day and night on the fourth day and the stars appeared too. We can at least both agree on that.

My point is not to say I am right, but that it doesn't actually say anywhere that God created everything in 6 earth days or that the sun and stars came after the earth.

That may be the case and it may not. Scientists obviously think that is not the case and they have been wrong and right before, but scripture doesn't force us to see it the scientific way or the common biblical view today. Both seem possible given the language we are presented with.

The more literal and accurate view can equally be applicable to say an earth with 2 great lights and stars became visible which would fit in an earth whose atmosphere becomes clear and allows light to penetrate. This view neither contradicts the literal view nor the scientific view. Looking up from an earth covered in darkness to see a great light penetrating that darkness, it appears for the first time in that perspective.

And because we don't know which one for sure, I think it is pointless to argue with scientists on their findings and say that it is rubbish because it doesn't fit one particular view of Genesis.

One thing I have learned in life is that a picture in your head as to what you think something looks like is often wrong. When I first went to the USA, I had an image in my head of what it might be like. It wasn't like what I thought it was.

So if Genesis says that God made 2 lights in the firmament above the earth, then he may have made them or he may have made them visible. I just like to keep an open mind and not argue unnecessarily about such things because ultimately I think it is futile to say one opinion is wrong and the other is right when we weren't there and if both scenarios seem possible given the language we are presented with.

[Proclaimer]

If God said to you, that the sun didn't rise, that may certainly be hard to accept when sitting on a beach and watching the sun rise over the horizon. But we know that the sun doesn't rise at all, rather the earth goes around the sun and is spinning on an axis which means that all parts of the earth will face away from the sun periodically and then toward the sun.

So the sun rises from the perspective of looking at a horizon. The Sun doesn't rise when viewed from space of course, but both observations are actually right observations. As I said before, it depends on what perspective you are coming from.

And how does this all appear in the 12th dimension?

Perspectives change depending on where you are looking from and these observations aren't even necessarily wrong or contradictory.

Was God speaking from his perspective, from ours, or the earths?

[Stu]

t8

Where does it say the light penetrated clouds?

Stuart

[Author]

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