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When a minister speaks of the rapture, he will without a doubt mention those that are left behind. If you are not raptured, you are left behind to face whatever Satan will throw at you. However, everybody knows when you start from a wrong premise, you will also come up with the wrong conclusion.
Luke 17:34 “ I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left”
v. 35 “ Two woman shall be grinding together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.”
v. 36 “ Two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
These scriptures have nothing to do with the “rapture” or a physical left behind idea. Instead they describe the spiritual condition of man and woman at the time, “that night” of Christ’s return.
1 Thes. 5:2 “ For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”
Jesus said that the mindset of the people, at the time of his return, would be the same as of the people before the flood. People wont even be aware that he has returned because they think we will hear a lout trumpet sound and see Christ come down from heaven riding on a white horse. The white horse Christ is seen riding (Rev. 19:11) is symbolic for a conqueror. Jesus Christ is a conqueror; he won the victory over sin and death. The return of Christ is not the beginning of his reign either; it is the setting up of his kingdom, getting ready for his reign. Question: who has to get ready? Answer: all the resurrected saints. In Daniel 2:44, we read, “In the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed”. Who are these kings, and are we in fact living in the days of these kings? (See the seventh head) As the Ark was being build, people must have ask Noah what he was doing and why, so why were not more people saved? Just before Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, the angels told Lot to get his other daughters and sons-in-law to go with them; they refused because they did not believe him.
Gen. 19:14 “And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.”
Are we any different today? We hear it often enough said; we are in the end-time; does any one believe it? Does any one understand? Jesus told us how we would behave.
Mat. 24:38 “ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that No’e entered into the ark.”
The ark provided safety from destruction that God had pronounced on the world, for Noah and his family; what will protect you from God’s wrath in the end-time? How close do you think we are to the end-time? Have you been watching the news lately?
Zech. 12:9 “ And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come (are) against Jerusalem.”
There is only one way you can protect yourself: seek God’s protection.
Zeph. 2:3 “ Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness; seek meekness; it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’s anger.”
Those are the conditions: you have to seek God in spirit and in truth, and he will give you his Holy Spirit; that will be your protection.
Luke 11:13 “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children; how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.”
Seeking God, asking for his Holy Spirit, and not being left behind, all goes hand in hand; take the parable of the sower.
Mat. 13:37 “…He that sowest the good seed (the word of God) is the son of man (Jesus).”
v. 38 “ The field is the world (that is us)…”
v. 23 “ But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understand it, which also beareth fruit and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
Hearing and doing the word of God will produce fruit in them that are good ground. They will leave those that have no fruit, tares, behind; and take their fruit to the grinders. The grinding of your fruit are the trials and testing of your faith you have to undergo; they produce the flour for your bread. If you can’t stand the grinding, you’re left behind.
Matt. 13:20 “But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon (at once) with joy receiveth it.”
v. 21 “Yet has he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word; by and by he is offended.”
Peter explains it this way.
1 Peter 1:7 “That the trials of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.”
Jesus goes on explaining in
Matt. 13:25 “But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.”
The enemy is the devil; his agent is the Antichrist; the tares are his gospel and doctrines; they produce no fruit. While men slept, meaning, no one was aware of what happened. God has allowed both to grow until harvest time.
v. 30 “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”
How often have you heard, we are in the end-time?
v. 39 “The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.”
It is up to you whether you will be in God’s barn, hidden from his wrath, or bundled up and burned.
v. 40 “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.”
v. 41 “The son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity.”
v. 42 “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
The furnace of fire is God’s wrath on the entire world; all things that are offensive, and all that do evil, will come under it, will be destroyed. The wailing and gnashing of teeth will be, realizing you could have avoided it all.
v. 43 “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Is any one listening? Jesus also told us this.
Rev. 3:19 “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent.”
Do you not do the same with your children?
The more fruit you produce, the more flour you grind up, the more bread you have to eat, the more you will grow because this bread is the bread of life. Jesus said,
John 6:48 “ I am that bread of life.”
v. 63 “It is the spirit that quickened (made alive), the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. “
As you grow spiritually in your understanding, you will outgrow your “bed”, the Church, your place of comfort. You have been fed milk, but now you want meat; milk no longer satisfies you; you have outgrown your bed of understanding and are moving on; you are leaving the other babes behind.
1 Peter 2:2 “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.”
Heb. 5:12 “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk; and not of strong meat.”
v. 13 “For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe.”
v. 14 “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,
even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
In my last study, the rapture, I explained the meaning of Dan. 12:12, the 1335 days equal years. It is the time the saints would have to wait for their resurrection, not that they knew that at the time. What is interesting is this: Israel became a nation again in 1948. Jesus said, “This generation shall not pass till all things be fulfilled” (Matt. 24:34). A generation is 70 years (Ps. 90:10). In other words, this generation will end in 2018, and all things spoken of by all the holy prophets in the OT, and what Jesus and the Apostles have told us would happen, will have happened, and that includes God wrath on all evil nations. Jesus said that we, the people, would be just as the people were in the days of Noah.
Matt. 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
v. 37 “But as the days of No’e were, so shall also the coming of the son of man be.”
v. 38 “For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that No’e entered into the ark.”
v. 39 “And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be.”
What is even more amazing than the description of people how they would behave is the time from the first resurrection until the end of time, 1900 until 2018. That makes my calculation only short by two years. Now, I don’t claim that my dates are absolutely accurate, but I do say there are close enough to be more than coincidental. God waited patiently for 120 years for Noah to build the ark, so is God giving us 120 years to get ready? Not exactly, all this time is not only for us. Jesus told the Apostles he would go and prepare a place for them and all the saints and then come back again. He did prepare a place for them and now has come back to prepare those that will occupy these places, offices. Noah prepared the ark for his family and all the animals; Christ is preparing kings and priests for his kingdom.
Doesn’t it make you wonder what is happening in the world today, and why? How many people believed Noah it would rain when he build the ark? How many people today believe only God’s Holy Spirit can save us from his wrath?Will you be left behind to face it?
Georg
For those that hear: In every parable that Jesus gave the people he expounded to his desciples the meaning. Consistantly throughout Jesus teachings, …”at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.(Matt13:49) Gods people inherit the earth. They are not going anywhere. The word Rapture means a glorious feeling. It is not in the Bible. That is a man made doctrine. We can only be saved by following Jesus. TK
Georg said:
Quote When a minister speaks of the rapture, he will without a doubt mention those that are left behind. If you are not raptured, you are left behind to face whatever Satan will throw at you. However, everybody knows when you start from a wrong premise, you will also come up with the wrong conclusion.
Luke 17:34 “ I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left”
v. 35 “ Two woman shall be grinding together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.”
v. 36 “ Two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
These scriptures have nothing to do with the “rapture” or a physical left behind idea. Instead they describe the spiritual condition of man and woman at the time, “that night” of Christ’s return.Georg,
I am in full agreement with you that the passage under consideration has nothing to do with a supposed “secret rapture”. However, the passage does NOT mean what you say either. It is not talking about the spiritual condition of men and women at Christ's return. According to Luke's account armies would surround Jerusalem and then invade the city. The soldiers would take away some of the people into captivity. Those who were taken were led away captive. And those who were left were those who escaped being taken captive. See Luke 21:20-24.This was fulfilled by the invasion of the Roman army in ad70.
thinker
thinker
Your absolutely right what you say about Luke 21:20-24, that was a prophesy for 70 AD.
Luke 17:34-36 however have nothing to do with those scriptures; the return of Jesus will not be seen with the physical eye, it can only be understood by understanding scripture.
Does any one recognize the symptom's the world is showing? The thread in the middle east is growing greater every day, that is where we need to keep our eyes on.
Do people really believe, there will come a man whom they will worship as god, Antichrist?
Small groups, cults, yes; but the whole world, you can't be serious.
Do ministers really believe that? I wonder.Georg
To all:Where is Jesus now? He is in the mind of a believer correct?Through words that are Spirit. The word is made flesh again in a man! Where would Jesus come from if he is already here? Jesus said his work was finished, what would he come back to do?Die again? Would the prince of peace come back to kill and destroy? Will he take on another physical body and ride a horse and have a two-edged sword? Our military would laugh. We must be born again! We must see with understanding, and hear with spiritual ears.Where is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit now? Everywhere? Where are they not?Where ever they are rejected. Jesus said he and the father would come and make their abode in us(house, temple, church). Thats better than across the world in the middle east. I believe that as we consume, and partake of the eternal words of God sent through Jesus we are created anew, one with them. We know that when we see him we will be like him for as he is, so are we in this world.Here's some news, Jesus said, let them grow together unto the end (the wheat and tares) and at the end the TARES WILL BE REMOVED and the wheat will be gathered unto God! The righteous are going to shine in the earth. Peace, TK
Quote (Cindy @ May 25 2009,13:04) thinker Your absolutely right what you say about Luke 21:20-24, that was a prophesy for 70 AD.
Luke 17:34-36 however have nothing to do with those scriptures; the return of Jesus will not be seen with the physical eye, it can only be understood by understanding scripture.
Does any one recognize the symptom's the world is showing? The thread in the middle east is growing greater every day, that is where we need to keep our eyes on.
Do people really believe, there will come a man whom they will worship as god, Antichrist?
Small groups, cults, yes; but the whole world, you can't be serious.
Do ministers really believe that? I wonder.Georg
Georg,
You contradict yourself in your statements above. First you say that the return of Jesus “will not be seen with the physical eye”. Then you say that we “need to keep our eyes on” the middle east. So which is it?btw, the modern Middle East has no prophetic significance whatsoever. All biblical prophecy has been fulfilled.
thinker
thinker
Look again, I said, “will NOT be seen”.
No, not all prophecy has been fulfilled, the invasion of Israel is one, and God's wrath on all the world is another.Georg
Quote (Tim Kraft @ May 25 2009,21:48) To all:Where is Jesus now? He is in the mind of a believer correct?Through words that are Spirit. The word is made flesh again in a man! Where would Jesus come from if he is already here? Jesus said his work was finished, what would he come back to do?Die again? Would the prince of peace come back to kill and destroy? Will he take on another physical body and ride a horse and have a two-edged sword? Our military would laugh. We must be born again! We must see with understanding, and hear with spiritual ears.Where is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit now? Everywhere? Where are they not?Where ever they are rejected. Jesus said he and the father would come and make their abode in us(house, temple, church). Thats better than across the world in the middle east. I believe that as we consume, and partake of the eternal words of God sent through Jesus we are created anew, one with them. We know that when we see him we will be like him for as he is, so are we in this world.Here's some news, Jesus said, let them grow together unto the end (the wheat and tares) and at the end the TARES WILL BE REMOVED and the wheat will be gathered unto God! The righteous are going to shine in the earth. Peace, TK
TKJesus is here on earth, setting up his kingdom, Dan. 2:44.
Dying on the cross for our sins, that he finished; but judging/teaching the world has not even begun yet, neither has Satan been put away yet.
Jesus will destroy only those who will not repent and obey.
The Father and the Son does live in believers, we are the temple of God.
Only the saints will see him as he is.Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 26 2009,02:24) thinker Look again, I said, “will NOT be seen”.
No, not all prophecy has been fulfilled, the invasion of Israel is one, and God's wrath on all the world is another.Georg
Georg,
I made a typo error. But you still contradict yourself. If the return of Jesus will not be seen with with the physical eye then why do you say that we need to keep our eyes on the Middle East? This is contradictory and it makes no sense.The Olivet discourse says nothing about wrath upon the world. It was about God's wrath upon Israel alone. Jesus said that it would be wrath upon “this people” meaning the JEWS of the generation that rejected Him. We are in the gospel age now. Whosoever believes in Jesus is saved. And whosoever does not believe in Jesus will be damned. The Olivet discourse was not about the gospel age.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 26 2009,02:39) Quote (Cindy @ May 26 2009,02:24) thinker Look again, I said, “will NOT be seen”.
No, not all prophecy has been fulfilled, the invasion of Israel is one, and God's wrath on all the world is another.Georg
Georg,
I made a typo error. But you still contradict yourself. If the return of Jesus will not be seen with with the physical eye then why do you say that we need to keep our eyes on the Middle East? This is contradictory and it makes no sense.The Olivet discourse says nothing about wrath upon the world. It was about God's wrath upon Israel alone. Jesus said that it would be wrath upon “this people” meaning the JEWS of the generation that rejected Him. We are in the gospel age now. Whosoever believes in Jesus is saved. And whosoever does not believe in Jesus will be damned. The Olivet discourse was not about the gospel age.
thinker
thinkerNot if you know what Jesus said in.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.That is why I said, keep your eyes on Israel; that is not the return of Christ, that will be the beginning of his reign.
Georg
Georg said:
Quote Not if you know what Jesus said in. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Georg,
Jesus said that the SIGN of the Son of Man would appear in heaven. In AD70 Jesus returned via a sign. He said that all the tribes of the LAND will mourn. The “tribes” were the nations of Israel and the “land” was Israel. This was fulfilled in AD70.Georg said:
Quote That is why I said, keep your eyes on Israel; that is not the return of Christ, that will be the beginning of his reign. His coming marked the END of His reign (1 Cor. 15:27-28). At His coming He yielded up the kingdom to the Father. God has no more dealings with Israel. The kingdom was taken away from them forever.
thinker
thinker
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
It says, “all the tribes of the earth”
What was fulfilled in 70 AD, was the prophecy of Israel's existence as a nation, until the time of the gentiles, 1914. That year was also the beginning of WW1, the means by which God cleared Palestine of the Muslim Turks. It opened the way for the Israelites to come back home. And no one can say that was easy.
Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 27 2009,12:41) thinker Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
It says, “all the tribes of the earth”
What was fulfilled in 70 AD, was the prophecy of Israel's existence as a nation, until the time of the gentiles, 1914. That year was also the beginning of WW1, the means by which God cleared Palestine of the Muslim Turks. It opened the way for the Israelites to come back home. And no one can say that was easy.
Georg
Georg,
The Greek “ghay” would better be translated “land”. The word may refer to a region and not necessarily the whole earth (see Strong's #1093). The Olivet discourse is about God's judgment upon the Jewish people for rejecting their Messiah. Therefore, the “tribes” that mourn would be the nations of Israel and “ghay” would be a reference to their land.Georg said:
Quote That year was also the beginning of WW1, the means by which God cleared Palestine of the Muslim Turks. It opened the way for the Israelites to come back home. And no one can say that was easy. Please show from Scripture where WW1 was prophesied .
blessings,
thinkerthinker
Where in the bible does it say, I have to be a Greek scholar to read the bible.
You want it to be “land”, because you disagree with what God said.
I gave you plenty scriptures, showing the Israelites have remained God's favored people; you disagree with that, your not hurting my feelings.
I don't remember saying the first WW or the second WW were prophesied, not in so many words.
During WW1 the British drove out the Muslim Turks out of Palestine, making it possible for the Israelites to return; do you think that after almost 1850 years away from their land, they just happen to come back? By 1939 there were still only about half a million, but it was a start.
But their was a prophecy that had to be yet fulfilled, Mat. 24:21-22, and that did happen during WWII.Georg
Quote (Cindy @ May 29 2009,12:44) thinker Where in the bible does it say, I have to be a Greek scholar to read the bible.
You want it to be “land”, because you disagree with what God said.
I gave you plenty scriptures, showing the Israelites have remained God's favored people; you disagree with that, your not hurting my feelings.
I don't remember saying the first WW or the second WW were prophesied, not in so many words.
During WW1 the British drove out the Muslim Turks out of Palestine, making it possible for the Israelites to return; do you think that after almost 1850 years away from their land, they just happen to come back? By 1939 there were still only about half a million, but it was a start.
But their was a prophecy that had to be yet fulfilled, Mat. 24:21-22, and that did happen during WWII.Georg
Georg,
It helps to have a working knowledge of the original languages. God didn't write the old and new testaments in English.Where in the Bible is Israel's return to the land in 1948 prophesied? Ezekiel 12 says that this would be fulfilled in THEIR OWN TIME,
Quote …and the word which I speak shall come to pass; it will no more be postponed; for in your days, O rebellious house, I will say the word and perform it (Ezek 12:21-25) God told Israel that the word would be fulfilled in THEIR days. That word was the land promise (vs. 22). The land promise was fulfilled and so God doesn't owe Israel squat now.
thinker
thinker
Eze 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Eze 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.That process began in 1918 when the British drove out the Muslim Turks who had occupied Palestine, then in 1948 Israel became a nation again. God always keeps his promise.
Georg
To all: You can make the scriptures say anything you want them to say. Prophecy for me is spiritually discerned. All those that are in Christ are Jews, Israel, Jacob, Jerusalem, the Holy City etc. Now here is Truth: Jesus said the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist. That was end of the Law and the Prophets (Luke 16:16)— All things written in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms were fulfilled in Jesus, (Luke 24:44—-All things written in the Prophets about the Son of Man were fulfilled….(Luke 18:31)—-The Prophets and the Law prophesied until John (Matt 11:13)—-Jesus fulfilled all righteousness (Matt 3:15)….The Kingdom cometh NOT with observation, the Kingdom of God is within you(Luke 17:21)—Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. They were testifying of him.This is the day of the Lord. Jesus is the Sabbath rest of God. This is the year of jubilee. Elijah the Prophet(Jesus said John was Elijah who was to come) will come BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord. Its great for believers, its terrible for those who don't believe. Not one jot or tittle of the Law will be changed UNTIL all be fulfilled. All was fulfilled in Jesus. He said it is finished. Now we are to grow up in him and rule in Love. People create doctrines that they just won't let go of. These scriptures are all words of the master Jesus himself. He was the end of time by presenting the eternal words of God. Jesus was the end of the religious world that had gone astray and were lost in sin. Now is the Gospel of the New Covenant which is the arrival of the Kingdom of God within each believer. Jesus dwells within us the whole Spirit attempts to rule through us. We are the clearing house.We are his Church which is his body. We are the Temple of God and Priest of the Temple. We are Kings of his Kingdom within. We can express the words and will of God in the Earth or express failure, sickness, destruction and hell in the Earth. Its time to understand the Truth and start administering Love, healing, and prosperiety to a sick world. Each person will experience this life as in the way they see and understand God.Its our choice! Blessings to all, TK
Quote (thethinker @ May 27 2009,10:50) Georg said: Quote Not if you know what Jesus said in. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Georg,
Jesus said that the SIGN of the Son of Man would appear in heaven. In AD70 Jesus returned via a sign. He said that all the tribes of the LAND will mourn. The “tribes” were the nations of Israel and the “land” was Israel. This was fulfilled in AD70.Georg said:
Quote That is why I said, keep your eyes on Israel; that is not the return of Christ, that will be the beginning of his reign. His coming marked the END of His reign (1 Cor. 15:27-28). At His coming He yielded up the kingdom to the Father. God has no more dealings with Israel. The kingdom was taken away from them forever.
thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus returned by a sign??
Come on. He returned or he did not return.
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