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I noticed David defending himself on the JW's view of the Kingdom of Heaven. I am not a JW and do not agree with them on some of their doctrines I am aware of.
However, this is one area where I think they are one of the few organizations teaching the truth.
We are suppost to be sojourners making our way through this world. We are not part of this world. We are part of the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ is our King.
We are to be in the world but seperate from it.
I view it as we are suppost to lives holy lives as if we were actually already physically in Christ's kingdom even though he has not yet returned.
The Kingdom of Heaven is within us already and soon the day will dawn and the morning star will rise in our hearts at the return of the King. When all things are made subject to him and his Kingdom is founded apon the earth.
Quote We are suppost to be sojourners making our way through this world. We are not part of this world. We are part of the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ is our King. We are to be in the world but seperate from it.
I have raised this point about 200 times on this thread. No one here ever mentions being “no part of the world.” I don't think it matters to a great many on here.
Also, I've already started a “kingdom” thread. It was one of the few I started, and it was the first.
Quote However, this is one area where I think they are one of the few organizations teaching the truth.
Well, thankyou.But, what is this truth about the kingdom that you believe we teach? I actually am not sure you do believe we teach the truth on this, or what I mean is, I'm not sure you know what we actually believe about God's kingdom.
Over and over and over again, Jesus mentioned the kingdom. His illustrations, his preaching. yet, it is spoken of so very little on here.
Quote (david @ Jan. 17 2007,07:06) Quote We are suppost to be sojourners making our way through this world. We are not part of this world. We are part of the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ is our King. We are to be in the world but seperate from it.
I have raised this point about 200 times on this thread. No one here ever mentions being “no part of the world.” I don't think it matters to a great many on here.
Also, I've already started a “kingdom” thread. It was one of the few I started, and it was the first.
Quote However, this is one area where I think they are one of the few organizations teaching the truth.
Well, thankyou.But, what is this truth about the kingdom that you believe we teach? I actually am not sure you do believe we teach the truth on this, or what I mean is, I'm not sure you know what we actually believe about God's kingdom.
Over and over and over again, Jesus mentioned the kingdom. His illustrations, his preaching. yet, it is spoken of so very little on here.
I mean us living like we are citizens of the Kingdom.Your eschatology (arg, big word) I think is incorrect.
I was speaking only about the JW's conviction of how we live in the flesh on earth.
Quote I was speaking only about the JW's conviction of how we live in the flesh on earth. Quote this is one area where I think they are one of the few organizations teaching the truth.
So you think how we live on the earth or what we teach about how to live on earth is the truth?
Is that correct?Living as citizens under the King of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Seperate from the world. Sojourners passing through. Refraining from wars. Only returning Good for evil.
Giving to Caesar what is Caesar's and giving to God what is God.
This coin has Caesar's image on it he can have it. I am made in God's image so God can have me.
Earthly things the world can have, heavenly treasures await us.
Got it.
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””JOHN 17:14-16
“I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”I noticed David defending himself on the JW's view of the Kingdom of Heaven. I am not a JW and do not agree with them on some of their doctrines I am aware of.
However, this is one area where I think they are one of the few organizations teaching the truth.
And, we are the only organizition who would seem to be fulfilling this scripture, in regard to the good news of this kingdom:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”You are right. He that boasts, let him boast in Jehovah. But when a Christian tells a buddhist that being a follower of Christ is a good thing (which is true) is that boasting?
Apparently, you can't actually argue with what I said, so you try to redirect the conversation. A fallacy.Quote (david @ Feb. 18 2007,00:45) And, we are the only organizition who would seem to be fulfilling this scripture, in regard to the good news of this kingdom:
To david and anyone else.First off. We are not told to look for the right organisation are we.
We are told to do many things in scipture, but not seek out the correct organisation.
The point is, if we are in Christ, then we are in the Body of Christ and are members with others who are in Christ.
We are then told to be of one mind and let there be no differences between us. But we are not told that the true organisation (the Body of Christ) has complete unity and no indifference.
As much as the first century church had all things in common, they still had disputes about the Law and Paul and Barnabus even had a dispute that resulted in them parting bitterly. Paul then said correctly that many deceivers would come after he passed on and Jesus himself even wondered if there would be faith when he returned.
So all this talk about we are the true organisation (because of our unified doctrines) and we are the only organisation because we preach from door to door are irrelevant.
You completely forget about the fact that people preach all the time. How did I become a believer? I was an atheist once. Surely someone gave me the gospel. And I can tell you right now, it wasn't a JW.
I will say what I have said before:
If we are in Christ, then we are in God and we are part of the Body of Christ. We are members with the other parts of that body, even if we disagree on things. But we are encouraged to agree and be one on all things.
The first century church had meetings to discuss differences did they not?
We also talk about differences here on this board and there is no way you can deny that some people who come here are part of the Body of Christ.
As I have said before:
“Beware of charlatans who claim to belong to the right organisation/denomination.” Do not listen to such people. They are only interested in you joining their denomination and they create unnecessary divisions because they are not spirit minded, but their ideas are fleshly. They are mere men. They cannot see the Body of Christ for they know not that it is a spiritual organisation made up of living stones. Each stone is a person filled with God's spirit. The Body of Christ is not a man-made organisation with buildings, presidents, a CEO, or any other such man-made invention. It is made up of evangelists, prophets, etc.
So I conclude by saying “be found in Christ that you may be in God's will, part of the Body of Christ, and eligible to hear what the Spirit says”. And agree on all things. But agreeing on all things is not a prerequisite that you belong to the correct organisation. Even the Nazis agreed on many things. It proves nothing.
Quote First off. We are not told to look for the right organisation are we. We are told to do many things in scipture, but not seek out the correct organisation.
T8 is right. The true followers of Jesus would be “search[ing] out” deserving ones, not simply letting people find them. (Mat 10:11-14)
Quote We are then told to be of one mind and let there be no differences between us. But we are not old that the true organisation has complete unity and no indifference.
You are right again. We are not told that the true organisation has “complete unity and no indifference.” Jesus followers are to be “one.” (John 17:11)1 CORINTHIANS 1:10
“Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
Of course, this doesn't always happen, but would Jesus brothers be arguing with their “brothers” over whether Jesus is a trinity, over whether God tortures people in a fiery hell? Jesus brothers would not be divided over what Gods word of truth says. Nor would they go to war and kill one another. They are united in love. And, they seem to be united in purpose, all declaring the good news, as Jesus fortold for our time:MARK 13:10
“Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first.”Quote As much as the first century church had all things in common, they still had disputes about the Law and Paul and Barnabus even had a dispute that resulted in them parting bitterly. Paul then said correctly that many deceivers would come after he passed on and Jesus himself even wondered if there would be faith when he returned.
When Jesus asked that question, I think he was referring to that kind of faith. I'm sure Jesus knows that there will be some who have faith. Well, he does know. He in fact, as I just said fortold that in the last days of this world, there would be his followers, who, out of faith, were witnessing about the good news of God and his kingdom:MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”The “cloud of witnesses” mentioned in Hebrews 11:1-12:1 did what they did because of their faith. Similarly, obviously, there would be faith found on the earth if as Jesus said, there would be his followers witnessing in all the nations.
Quote So all this talk about we are the true organisation (because of our unified doctrines) and we are the only organisation because we preach from door to door are irrelevant. Irrelevant to you. Not to Jesus.
Jesus foretold for our day this work: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”–Mat. 24:14
He also instructed his followers: “Go . . . and make disciples of people of all the nations.”—Mat. 28:19
The message that the Witnesses proclaim involves the lives of people. (Zeph 2:2,3) Therefore they actively “search out” those who wish to hear of this good news, by going to the homes of people, in accordance with Jesus words: “As you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ . . . .“Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. Wherever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off your feet.”–Mat. 10:7,11-14
The apostle Paul said regarding his ministry: “I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.”—Acts 20:20, 21
Notice how Christians of that time reached people with the good news: “And every day in the temple and from house to house* they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.”–Acts 5:42
(*Lit., “according to house.” Gr., kat’ oíkon. Here ka·tá is used with the accusative sing. in the distributive sense. R. C. H. Lenski, in his work The Interpretation of The Acts of the Apostles, Minneapolis (1961), made the following comment on Ac 5:42: “Never for a moment did the apostles cease their blessed work. ‘Every day’ they continued, and this openly ‘in the Temple’ where the Sanhedrin and the Temple police could see and hear them, and, of course, also κατ’ οικον, which is distributive, ‘from house to house,’ and not merely adverbial, ‘at home.’ ”)
Jesus “designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come.” These were not just to preach in public places but were also to contact people at their homes. Jesus instructed them: “Wherever you enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’”—Lu 10:1-7.
Their calls are motivated by love—first for God, also for their neighbor.
A conference of religious leaders in Spain noted this: “Perhaps [the churches] are excessively neglectful about that which precisely constitutes the greatest preoccupation of the Witnesses—the home visit, which comes within the apostolic methodology of the primitive church. While the churches, on not a few occasions, limit themselves to constructing their temples, ringing their bells to attract the people and to preaching inside their places of worship, [the Witnesses] follow the apostolic tactic of going from house to house and of taking advantage of every occasion to witness.”—El Catolicismo, Bogotá, Colombia, September 14, 1975, p. 14.
Of course, we also do “informal witnessing” or “street witnessing” or “telephone witnessing” or letter writing, or whatever may work. But the method set out by Jesus works best.Quote You completely forget about the fact that people preach all the time. How did I become a believer? I was an atheist once. Surely someone gave me the gospel. And I can tell you right now, it wasn't a JW.
Yes, people “preach” all the time.BUT, DO THEY PREACH IN ALL THE INHABITED EARTH, FOR A WITNESS TO ALL THE NATIONS….all the time? (mat 24:14)
Which group is doing that?Quote If we are in Christ, then we are in God and we are part of the Body of Christ.
Sure. But many who THINK they are “in Christ,” really, of course, have nothing to do with thim. Christ considers them “workers of lawlessnes
s.”
(mat 7:21-23)So, how can you tell if someone is a true Christian, given what Jesus said above? Do you ask them: “Are you in Christ, of the body of Christ?”
And if they say yes, then all is good?
A mechanic can tell you he is a doctor. It doesn't make him a doctor T8. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Look at Jesus words again. Many would actually think they were doing what is right. But those “doing the will of my father” are acceptable.
And what is the will of the Father, for our time? What did Jesus say would be taking place?MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Quote We are members with the other parts of that body, even if we disagree on things.
And what if someone disagrees with you on a fundamental teaching, on the very nature of who God is? What if someone teaches a satanic treaching that turns people away from God? What if someone teachs that God burns people alive for all time, for example? Do you kiss them, and let them be on their way, teaching that God does things that no loving being would? Do you hold someone who twists such teachings to suit Satan's purpose, as a brother? The Bible fortold those who would speak twisted things, wrong teachings. If someone goes around teaching that a God of love and justice tortures people for all time for the sins of 70 years, then how can you be united with such a person? It is neither scriptural nor logical, based on God's qualities of love and justice. Yet, you let them go on teaching these things, calling them brother? A couple times I asked Nick if he would ever find himself in a situation where he would kill you if he lived in another country and your two countries went to war. He refused to answer this simple question! Nick can't definitively state that he would never come into a situation where he would kill you! ! !JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””Quote We are members with the other parts of that body, even if we disagree on things.
A while back you said that “many” or even “most” of the Christian religions have members of the body of Christ. I then (about a week ago) asked you which religions don't. And if you can't name them, then how do you know that some don't? Are you speaking of the religions that claim to follow Christ, but worship violence, war, hatred, crime, greed, etc? How do you draw the line? And if it's not you drawing the line, how do you in fact know that there are “many” of such religions that contain the body of Christ?Quote The first century church had meetings to discuss differences did they not.
Yes, and they sorted those differences out. Should Christians be circumsized? It's resolved.
What you didn't find back then, was people completely disagreeing with their brothers over basic teachings.Quote Even Nazis agreed on many things. It proves nothing. Being united proves nothing. Being united in true worship, in accordance with scriptures proves everything.
“For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:37)
Therefore, acceptance of Jesus’ teachings along with the rest of God’s inspired Word, the Bible, has a powerful uniting influence on Christ’s true disciples.—1 Corinthians 4:6; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.Hi david,
So if you go knocking on doors you make enquiries about worthiness and sure they are deserving first?Quote Hi david,
So if you go knocking on doors you make enquiries about worthiness and sure they are deserving first?Jesus instructed his disciples: “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving.” (Matthew 10:11) Not all individuals were deserving, as shown by their reaction to the Kingdom message.
Hi david,
Matt 10
” 11And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence”
Do you think you knock first and if they show you what is wrong with your message they prove they are undeserving?
It sounds rather more like enquiring from brothers in the town who to stay with during the visit than anything to do with evangelism.Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2007,21:38) Irrelevant to you. Not to Jesus.
Jesus foretold for our day this work: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”–Mat. 24:14
He also instructed his followers: “Go . . . and make disciples of people of all the nations.”—Mat. 28:19
david, I can assure you that there are many more works done in Jesus name including the spreading of the gospel by Christians than all the works of the JWs combined.First off the Church has been around for around 2000 years and the JWs are a recent invention.
The first century Church were NOT part of the Jehovah Witnesses organisation. That invention came within recent times..Secondly, of all people who believe that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God and have been baptised into him, I would suggest that few would actually be partakers in the JW organisation in comparison to what the Body of Christ as a whole has produced. I am sure that I am understating this too.
david you can use these forums to promote your club, but I would hope that most who come here are serious about serving Christ and being connected to him as the head of the body of which they are the members, than joining a club that claims to have all or most of the answers.
For me personally, I would also hope that I am beyond being sucked into these kinds of clubs. I think that I understand the truth that it is not about finding the correct club, or the Church with the biggest steeple. I am not trying to say that I am great in any way, but just that the discipline that I have been through has taught me that it is not wise to seek a religious system to satisfy our relationship with God.
In truth we are to be connected to the head of the body (Christ) that we may be in God's will and be eligible to be led by God's spirit. If this is true, then we are part of the same body/temple that the other living stones belong to.
It is up to those in the body to agree on all things and be found in unity of love.
I believe it is an affront to call the Body of Christ or the global Church, the Jehovah Witness organisation, The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints, or the Roman Catholic Church, or any other charlatan that claims to be the Church.
I say come out of them by letting the truth set you free.
Why gamble your eternal life with God by submitting to such organisations and letting them work out your salvation?
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,The Body of Christ is part of the Kingdom of Heaven. So why not be part of the body and in unity with the members of that body?
david,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Quote Hi david,
So if you go knocking on doors you make enquiries about worthiness and sure they are deserving first?Jesus instructed his disciples: “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving.” (Matthew 10:11) Not all individuals were deserving, as shown by their reaction to the Kingdom message.
Hi David
So is that why I dont see the JW's anymore?
I said to the woman “No sorry Im not interested.” But she kept persisting “Did you know…” and i replied “No I didnt know but Im not interested.” And she still kept going….by this time I was angry and near ready to swear at her so I told her i was worshipping the devil (because i was associating with Psychics) and she left. I mean… what does it take for you guys to understand the phrase “not interested”. Its no wonder people go all hostile (I know this because my best friend from down south was witnessing and she told me she had threats thrown at her and plus i experienced it myself)
Anyway, there is a JW lady that still visits my mum and dad and she knows me too and sadly she was there when i got all angry. But she still says hello and I acknowledge her as well. Actually she came to my house in Jan sometime to drop off some watchtower mags and to ask how I was. When I saw her coming I quickly put my bible up on the table to see if she would notice it. (I was too scared to ask) That if she asked me if Id be interested in bible study I would have said “Yes Please!!” But she didnt so I chose the next option.
I still respect the JW's but I didnt like being pressured into something. Besides, like i said… my heart wasnt there at the time.
And look at me now…hungry for knowledge of the bible.
Hugs
Phoenix
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