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Hi Is 1.18,
Given that you agree Jesus is not a part of God and that you say Yahshua is Yah then you must surely say that he is God Himself.So before God came in the flesh[
]what did God empty Himself of [or as you say voluntarily not use], so that he could be just like us submitting to God even unto death for our sin on the cross to offer restoration of our relationship with God?Phil 2
” 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. “
Does emptying Himself still mean that in all ways He was still God? Whose power did He work in? Was it His own or the Spirit of God that God anointed him with?
Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Did he anoint himself or does now God mean the Father?
If he was already fully God why on earth did he need anointing with power?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2006,20:50) Hi Is 1.18,
Given that you agree Jesus is not a part of God and that you say Yahshua is Yah then you must surely say that he is God Himself.
well…yes…Quote So before God came in the flesh[ ]what did God empty Himself of
I have previously answered this.Quote [or as you say voluntarily not use]
I did not write that…..please try to be accurate if you are going to quote me.Quote , so that he could be just like us submitting to God even unto death for our sin on the cross to offer restoration of our relationship with God?
Yes.Quote Phil 2
” 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. “
Does emptying Himself still mean that in all ways He was still God?
Given that He apparently did not empty Himself of His deity – yes. Why are we constantly relitigating this? My views have been clearly explained to you.Quote Whose power did He work in?
I have previously answered this.Quote Was it His own or the Spirit of God that God anointed him with?
I believe Jesus the man was annointed with the Holy Spirit….Quote Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”Did he anoint himself or does now God mean the Father?
Huh? Can one person not annoint another…..is this impossible? If you were annointed by another man would you infer from this that you were a 'lower being' compared to Him….??Quote If he was already fully God why on earth did he need anointing with power?
Because He emptied Himself…..Hi Is 1.18,
Sorry about the misquote but did you say he decided voluntarily not to use his own powers or something like that? But now you are saying he did actually empty himself but will not specify of what? Any ideas? Glory? Powers? He seems to have remembered the glory and wanted to go back to be glorified again so that seems to relate to his divine attributes does it not?At least we have some progress.
You said:” I believe Jesus the man was annointed with the Holy Spirit….
Quote
Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”So Jesus was a man different to God and not just God incarnate?
He was anointed by a greater being at the Jordan, God, with God's Spirit.I do not believe a lesser being anoints a greater but the reverse.
A prophet can anoint a king, the prophet being greater at that time working in the authority of God, but yes both are still men.Jesus constantly told us God was greater than him and he is our greatest witness to truth.
So God anointed Jesus with power, the power he used during his ministry.Do you agree that he never, then, used his own powers on earth?
Jesus was a man just like us while on earth and all his works were those of God done through him.
He had no advantages over us and we can follow him in the same empowering Spirit.
Do you agree?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2006,07:06) Hi Is 1.18,
Sorry about the misquote
Okay, no problem.Quote but did you say he decided voluntarily not to use his own powers or something like that?
No, I don't believe so….Quote But now you are saying he did actually empty himself but will not specify of what?
I have been reasonably specific, but as scripture does not reveal exactly what was relinquished we all have to speculate to some degree. Deity was not forfeited though, that much is clear. You teach that Yahshua is a divine being, do you think He “emptied” Himself of this?Quote Any ideas? Glory? Powers? He seems to have remembered the glory and wanted to go back to be glorified again so that seems to relate to his divine attributes does it not?
perhaps…Quote So Jesus was a man different to God and not just God incarnate?
He was both man and God (but NOT the Father). That is what scripture affirms.Quote He was anointed by a greater being at the Jordan, God, with God's Spirit.
Was He anointed at the Jordan?Quote I do not believe a lesser being anoints a greater but the reverse.
A prophet can anoint a king, the prophet being greater at that time working in the authority of God, but yes both are still men.
Yes…so your point is invalid.
Quote Jesus constantly told us God was greater than him and he is our greatest witness to truth.
Greater in what sense?Quote So God anointed Jesus with power, the power he used during his ministry.
As I've previously stated, I believe that Yahshua operated by the Holy Spirit.Quote Do you agree that he never, then, used his own powers on earth?
I don't think He partially emptied Himself of His divine attributes…Quote Jesus was a man just like us while on earth and all his works were those of God done through him.
Yes Jesus was a man just like us. But as you freely concede 'He has divine origins'. There are key differences between Yahshua and the rest of us to consider, namely:– He pre-existed His conception as “God”…
– His conception was utterly unique…
– He was sinless…
– He was able to forgive sins committed against God…
– He was worshipped and never rebuked it…
– The fullness of the divine essence (the state of being God) permanently settled in His body…
– He was capable of raising Himself from death…To name a few….
Quote He had no advantages over us and we can follow him in the same empowering Spirit. Do you agree?
Inasmuch as mere creation can follow the Creator, yes…Blessings
Hi Is 1.18
“
Quote
I do not believe a lesser being anoints a greater but the reverse.
A prophet can anoint a king, the prophet being greater at that time working in the authority of God, but yes both are still men.Yes…so your point is invalid.”
So the only type of GREATER you accept is what — being and not authority?“The fullness of the divine essence (the state of being God) permanently settled in His body…”
So there was a time when the divine essence[or God] was not within his body? I agree.
Is it surprising he allowed men to see and reverence the God within him?“Deity was not forfeited though, that much is clear.”
So he who is not recorded as being worshipped in heaven has a godly status to be adored on earth?
Not if he was like to us as we do not have such status and he was made like to us.“As I've previously stated, I believe that Yahshua operated by the Holy Spirit.”
So the Spirit of God worked through him? I agree
So what point was there in still having his own POWERS as you say he did?“He was able to forgive sins committed against God…”
He said he had been given the authority to forgive sins when he healed the paraplegic so what is your point? Do you think that must mean he was also the one who gave him that authority?“Was He anointed at the Jordan?”
Well he saw the Spirit come upon him and after that scripture says he was filled with the Spirit and he began his ministry.“- He pre-existed His conception as “God”…”
God WITH God as scripture says three times, so not God Himself whom you accept is the Father.“He was both man and God “
So he was not like to us in all ways except sin-body, soul and spirit as a human?”
Do you agree that he never, then, used his own powers on earth?I don't think He partially emptied Himself of His divine attributes…”
So his divine attributes included his powers? I agree.“He was capable of raising Himself from death…”
He was surely raised by God by the action of the Spirit within him and that Spirit spoke through him in prophecy in Jn 2.19Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2006,10:04) So the only type of GREATER you accept is what — being and not authority?
Hi NH,
It would really help me read you posts if you could put my quotes in the quote boxes. Can you do that for me?In answer to your first question. Have you ever investigated how the Greek word for 'greater' (meizon) is used in the NT?
Does it refer to ontology or position?Matthew 11:11
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater (meizon) than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.John being greater than all those born of women does not imply that the rest were less human than John, or that they were inferior to John in nature. The obvious meaning is that John was greater in position and rank.
Luke 22:27
“For who is greater (meizon), the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.Is the “one who serves” a superior being in his nature than the “one who rerclines at the table?
John 13:16
“Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater (meizon) than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.Is Yahshua speaking about the ontology of the slave relative to that master here?
Quote So there was a time when the divine essence[or God] was not within his body? I agree.
I didn't infer that…and neither does scripture.BTW, theotes most assuredly does not denote the person of the Father:
Thayer’s lexicon defines theotes as the “state of being God”.
”…But in the second passage (Col. 2:9), Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of Divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son” (Trench, Syn. ii). Theotes indicates the “Divine” essence of Godhood, the personality of God; theiotes, the attributes of God, His “Divine” nature and properties. (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT words)…yet they (theiotes and theotes) must not be regarded as identical in meaning, nor even as two different forms of the same word, which in process of time have separated off from one another, and acquired different shades of significance. On the contrary, there is a real distinction between them, and one which grounds itself on their different derivations; theotes being from theos, and theiotes, not from to theion, which is nearly though not quite equivalent to theos, but from the adjective theios …But in the second passage (Col. ii.9) St. Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fulness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up his person for a season and with a splendour not his own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God and the Apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son. (Trench’s Synonyms of the New Testament)
'Theotes' is from 'Theos' but there is an unmistakable distinction to be drawn between what each word denotes….
Quote Is it surprising he allowed men to see and reverence the God within him?
Can I ask you something? Is Yahshua's deity solely a function of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? In which case are we divine too?Or something that He carried with him from His pre-incarnate existence?
Quote So he who is not recorded as being worshipped in heaven has a godly status
What does it truely mean to have “godly status” and how could anyone less than God have this?? Just how many Gods are there??Quote to be adored on earth?
Not if he was like to us as we do not have such status and he was made like to us.
Are these things that are true of Yahshua, also true of you?– You pre-existed your conception as “God”…
– Your conception was utterly unique…
– You are sinless…
– You are able to forgive sins committed against God…
– You can be worshipped…
– The fullness of the divine essence (the state of being God) permanently settled in your body…
– You are capable of raising Himself from death…Also, is it right for you to be described with the honorifics:
– “Great God” (Ti 2:13)
– “Mighty God” (Isa 9:6)
– “Alpha and Omega” (Rev 22:13)Maybe Yahshua IS ascribed these names because He is higher than you….
He is Creator, we are mere creation…..
Quote So the Spirit of God worked through him? I agree
So what point was there in still having his own POWERS as you say he did?
Did I say that? Where?Quote He said he had been given the authority to forgive sins when he healed the paraplegic so what is your point? Do you think that must mean he was also the one who gave him that authority?
But the rest of us do not have this authority, that was my point….Quote Well he saw the Spirit come upon him and after that scripture says he was filled with the Spirit and he began his ministry.
I don't believe that scripture records that Jesus was “filled with the Spirit” at the Jordan River….Quote God WITH God as scripture says three times, so not God Himself whom you accept is the Father.
Nevertheless, there is only ONE God…..only one.Quote So he was not like to us in all ways except sin-body, soul and spirit as a human?
He was 100% human, yes…Quote He was surely raised by God by the action of the Spirit within him and that Spirit spoke through him in prophecy in Jn 2.19
Oh, so when Jesus makes a claim that only God could make…it's the Spirit of God speaking, but when no such claim is made its the person of Jesus speaking….how convenient….John 2:18-20
18 The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.This was not the only time Yahshua made this claim:
John 10:17-18
17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18 ” No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This commandment I received from My Father.”A claim that was remember and repeated by others:
Matthew 26:61
and said, “This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'”Matthew 27:40
and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”Mark 14:58
“We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'”Mark 15:29
Those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, “Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days,Yahshua clearly made this claim and it was the understanding of all who heard him, or heard of the statement later, that He was speaking on His own volition….
John 2:21-22
21 But He [Jesus] was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He [Jesus] said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.Do you believe him?
NH, I have attempted to answer all your questions, can you answer these two from me:
Quote You teach that Yahshua is a divine being, do you think He “emptied” Himself of this? Quote Jesus constantly told us God was greater than him and he is our greatest witness to truth. Greater in what sense?
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
I am ignorant of such high skills for now so bear with me.“Ontological” is unbiblical. It belongs on theological sites and you are the only one using it here so please refrain as it is a foreign language.
Jesus had divine origins but left all advantages over us behind. As outer man he was exactly like us but as invisible inner man he would be a golden vessel unlike in origin but alike in function and ability to our earthware. He partook of flesh adding flesh to his original being by the Father, through His Spirit and Mary.
2tim 2
” 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.”
Do the disciples of Jesus share the ability to forgive sins?
Jn 20
” 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”
It seems so.
Does that make them God?Hi Is 1.18,
Only you claim a “deity” status for Jesus while on earth. He left his glory behind and was as a servant.I guess you will have problems with greater/lesser but Hebrews shows us he was made less than the angels for a time, and that time was while he was on earth.
God is not in any way ever less than the angels.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2006,06:01) Hi Is 1.18,
I am ignorant of such high skills for now so bear with me.“Ontological” is unbiblical. It belongs on theological sites and you are the only one using it here so please refrain as it is a foreign language.
You use unbiblical language too, I clearly recall you using words like “non sequitur”, “contemporaneous”, and “analogy”….these are not found in scripture…what gives?I don't think it's right to demand a standard of others that you personally violate, and frequently…
Quote Jesus had divine origins but left all advantages over us behind. As outer man he was exactly like us but as invisible inner man he would be a golden vessel unlike in origin but alike in function and ability to our earthware.
Yet “theotes” (deity) is never used in reference to other men…let alone the fullness of it….Quote He partook of flesh adding flesh to his original being by the Father, through His Spirit and Mary
If He “He partook of flesh adding flesh to his original being by the Father” and His original being was “divine”, then How could He not have been divine while on Earth….How could Yahshua have emptied Himself of the actual nature of His being, while still retaining His “original being”??
Quote Do the disciples of Jesus share the ability to forgive sins? Jn 20
” 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”
It seems so.
Does that make them God?
Yes but were the disciples forgiving sins committed against them personally, or against God? Seems pretty obvious to me…Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2006,06:18) Hi Is 1.18,
Only you claim a “deity” status for Jesus while on earth. He left his glory behind and was as a servant.
does “glory” equate precisely to “deity”…?Hi Is 1.18,
None of those words are theological words, developed to “explain” things by logic and without reference to scripture.Heb 2
” 7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:”Was God made less than the angels?
Hi Is 1.18,
Since Jesus is never referred to in scripture as a deity how does this question relate?“does “glory” equate precisely to “deity”…?”
Hi Is 1.18
“Yes but were the disciples forgiving sins committed against them personally, or against God? Seems pretty obvious to me… “Since scripture does not say which how does this question relate?
Hi Is 1.18
”
Jesus constantly told us God was greater than him and he is our greatest witness to truth.Greater in what sense?”
Greater in every sense.
He was given functional equality as Pharaoh gave Joseph but just as Joseph never became the Pharaoh, Jesus never was or became his own Father God.
Hi Is 1.18,
Since you now say Jesus is YHWH then you must be abandoning your previous claims that he was always equal with God?Hi Is 1.18,
Jesus is a man. Scripture says this several times including twice in Acts 2.
He is spoken of there according to the flesh [Rom 1.3]and as such he was exactly as we are.
Man can be spoken of according to the flesh
“remember man that thou art dust..”
or according to the inner man as in 2Cor 4
” 16For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. “We can say then that the ELOHIM nature of Christ is similar to us as inner man, in that both he and we are vessels that can be filled with Spirit. We should not be surprised as we are made in the image of God and so is he.
Hi Is 1.18,
Only vessels can be emptied. Jesus as the Word who came in flesh was such a vessel. But as a spirit being must have been filled with something to be emptied of it.Jesus spoke of men as vessels, cups that needed to be cleaned inside.
Matt 23
” 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. “
He spoke of unclean spirits that inhabit men.
Matt 10
“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease”
Lk 24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”
So it should not be hard for us to grasp that the cup of man when cleansed by the blood was designed to be filled with the Spirit as Jesus and the apostles were. Jesus had to be emptied to become like to us so his cup too could be filled eternally with the Spirit of his Father.
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