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Hi,
Kenosis is the process described in Phil 2.5f of the Son of God emptying himself to come as a man.
” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..”Those who say Jesus is Yahweh God or part of Yahweh God in trinity theory have difficulty dealing with this prickly subject and there are groups that are at odds with one another.
It is not hard to see how the Son of God can put aside his power and glory. He is a subservient and faithful and obedient son.
But if you espouse the other views you have to decide how God Himself can put his Power and Glory aside and still be God.
Interesting question.
Is the answer: His previous spiritual existence?
Some say glory, others power.“Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, . . . emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.” (Philippians 2:5-7) So this heavenly Son of God divested himself completely of “God’s form” to take on human nature.
It is an interesting question.
It's talking about his mind (v5) – that fact frames the whole passage. I read this as Jesus emptying himself of pride and self-will to become a servant.
Quote (Sammo @ Mar. 07 2006,16:41) It's talking about his mind (v5) – that fact frames the whole passage. I read this as Jesus emptying himself of pride and self-will to become a servant.
Sammo,
I believe you are reading things into the text that are not there. Pride and self-will are not even mentioned. We know from scripture that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began.Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Phil 2:5-8)
Here is the text that is being discussed. The portion in italics is referenced to as kenosis from the Greek word kenoo (strongs #2758) which means to make empty or to abase, but is interpreted here as “made Himself of no reputation (kenoo)
What did Jesus empty Himself of, and how did that effect Him in His incarnation?
I am not confident in my answer but here is my 2 cents worth:
He emptied himself if his nature. John 1:1-3 says that Jesus was the Word and the Word was god/divine.
We are then told that we must believe that Jesus came in the flesh, which is human nature. He came as a man.
He then returned to his previous glory with the Father and in Revelation he is called “The Word of God”. Most likely meaning that he is the divine Logos of God as he was before.
So he emptied himself of his God nature, took human nature, and now he is once again a divine being.
This idea assumes that Christ was just a man when he was here on earth and relied totally on his Father for all things as we should.
Even though it all seems to fit nicely, I am not sure if this is true. Maybe Christ had both divine and human nature at the same time, while he was here on earth? If so, the above idea falls down.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 10 2006,18:43) I am not confident in my answer but here is my 2 cents worth: He emptied himself if his nature. John 1:1-3 says that Jesus was the Word and the Word was god/divine.
We are then told that we must believe that Jesus came in the flesh, which is human nature. He came as a man.
He then returned to his previous glory with the Father and in Revelation he is called “The Word of God”. Most likely meaning that he is the divine Logos of God as he was before.
So he emptied himself of his God nature, took human nature, and now he is once again a divine being.
This idea assumes that Christ was just a man when he was here on earth and relied totally on his Father for all things as we should.
Even though it all seems to fit nicely, I am not sure if this is true. Maybe Christ had both divine and human nature at the same time, while he was here on earth? If so, the above idea falls down.
T8,
This could be true hence versus such as:And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man (Luke 2:52)
The Bible says that Jesus increased in wisdom and stature. Well you can't increase if you're already full.
As far as Christ being both divine and human, I guess the question is when. It is tricky because the fact that God was His Father could mean that He was both divine and human at birth. Or He could of been human at birth and then received the fulness of deity at His baptism.
If Jesus was born fully human and received the fulness of deity at His baptism then that would agree with Phil. 2, that He emptied Himself, and it would agree with Luke 2 that He increased in wisdom and stature, and favor with God and man.
Verse like Luke 2 put holes all into the Trinitarian doctrine. If one is 100% where is the room for growth.Look forward to your replies.
Quote I am not confident in my answer but here is my 2 cents worth: He emptied himself if his nature.
I agree with t8. When he “became flesh,” he emptied himself of his previous spiritual existence as a spirit creature, his very nature.I'm throwing these thought out there, could be way off but here goes…
Heb 13:8 tells us he is unchanging, like his Father.
When on earth he was the tabernacle for God.
He would appear to be the same also in the future.
Could he not have been the same prior to coming to earth?As the tabernacle on earth he was filled with the fullness of God.
To my understanding this happened on the river Jordan.Could it be he emptied himself of God and then was made in a form like ours?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2005,06:39) Hi,
Kenosis is the process described in Phil 2.5f of the Son of God emptying himself to come as a man.
” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..”Those who say Jesus is Yahweh God or part of Yahweh God in trinity theory have difficulty dealing with this prickly subject and there are groups that are at odds with one another.
It is not hard to see how the Son of God can put aside his power and glory. He is a subservient and faithful and obedient son.
But if you espouse the other views you have to decide how God Himself can put his Power and Glory aside and still be God.
A totally different take on the verse ” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,..” the pre-incarnet christ was as close to being God as you could get, but unlike lucifer, he did not aspire to be God over this creation even-though He had helped create it.“..but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..” Rather He chose to set aside His Glory and His spirit (not the Holy Spirit) was removed from His previous physical existence (a glorified body) so he could be born into our world.
This is just a silly distraction by which fools might be divided
by arguments and be easier to mislead.God is a spirit (John 4), His form is not of flesh, nor is it tied to flesh.
Christ was in the form of the spirits,
until the Jews corrupted Gods intent for mankind by claiming to be
the only people who were children of God, shunning all others.
If Jesus had just manifested himself in the flesh
He would not have been accepted as a Jew.:angry:He had to be born into the flesh to be considered a jew
to do that his consciousness divested itself from the spirit form
and was transferred Mary’s womb.Quote (seekingtruth @ April 08 2006,11:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2005,06:39) Hi,
Kenosis is the process described in Phil 2.5f of the Son of God emptying himself to come as a man.
” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..”Those who say Jesus is Yahweh God or part of Yahweh God in trinity theory have difficulty dealing with this prickly subject and there are groups that are at odds with one another.
It is not hard to see how the Son of God can put aside his power and glory. He is a subservient and faithful and obedient son.
But if you espouse the other views you have to decide how God Himself can put his Power and Glory aside and still be God.
A totally different take on the verse ” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,..” the pre-incarnet christ was as close to being God as you could get, but unlike lucifer, he did not aspire to be God over this creation even-though He had helped create it.“..but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..” Rather He chose to set aside His Glory and His spirit (not the Holy Spirit) was removed from His previous physical existence (a glorified body) so he could be born into our world.
Hi st,
We know from scripture that the spirit gives us life [James 2.26].
I would say the Word was soul and spirit only, a glorious and powerful divine personality without a body.
So he had life in himself and did not give that up but I think he gave up his powers and his glory to partake of flesh and be exactly as we are.Quote (TJStarfire @ April 08 2006,20:04) This is just a silly distraction by which fools might be divided
by arguments and be easier to mislead.God is a spirit (John 4), His form is not of flesh, nor is it tied to flesh.
Christ was in the form of the spirits,
until the Jews corrupted Gods intent for mankind by claiming to be
the only people who were children of God, shunning all others.
If Jesus had just manifested himself in the flesh
He would not have been accepted as a Jew.:angry:He had to be born into the flesh to be considered a jew
to do that his consciousness divested itself from the spirit form
and was transferred Mary’s womb.
Hi TJS,
Why would scripture say Jesus was “CONCEIVED” if he was simply transferred into the womb of Mary?
Conception involves a father and a mother. Is God not his real Father and Mary not his real mother and if so why is scripture broken here?Quote (seekingtruth @ April 08 2006,11:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2005,06:39) Hi,
Kenosis is the process described in Phil 2.5f of the Son of God emptying himself to come as a man.
” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..”Those who say Jesus is Yahweh God or part of Yahweh God in trinity theory have difficulty dealing with this prickly subject and there are groups that are at odds with one another.
It is not hard to see how the Son of God can put aside his power and glory. He is a subservient and faithful and obedient son.
But if you espouse the other views you have to decide how God Himself can put his Power and Glory aside and still be God.
A totally different take on the verse ” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,..” the pre-incarnet christ was as close to being God as you could get, but unlike lucifer, he did not aspire to be God over this creation even-though He had helped create it.“..but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..” Rather He chose to set aside His Glory and His spirit (not the Holy Spirit) was removed from His previous physical existence (a glorified body) so he could be born into our world.
Seekingtruth,I do have a small problem with your statement. Christ didn't help God with the creation. God created alone.
Isa:44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF;
Job 38:1-8
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Genesis 1:1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Genesis 1:21
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was goodGenesis 1:27
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Hi Woutlaw,
Just as a builder builds a house God is the builder.Heb 3.4
“For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God”But Jesus is the carpenter whom put in all the nails.
Heb 1.2
“..through whom also He made the world”
Coll 1.15
“For by him all things were created…all things have been created through him”I think what has to be recognized is that God is behind it all. If He isn't then nothing happens.
If Moses had spoken and God was not behind it, there would have been no plagues.
If Joshua had spoken and God was not behind it, the sun would not have stood still…Quote (Woutlaw @ April 09 2006,18:56) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 08 2006,11:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2005,06:39) Hi,
Kenosis is the process described in Phil 2.5f of the Son of God emptying himself to come as a man.
” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..”Those who say Jesus is Yahweh God or part of Yahweh God in trinity theory have difficulty dealing with this prickly subject and there are groups that are at odds with one another.
It is not hard to see how the Son of God can put aside his power and glory. He is a subservient and faithful and obedient son.
But if you espouse the other views you have to decide how God Himself can put his Power and Glory aside and still be God.
A totally different take on the verse ” ..Christ Jesus, who although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,..” the pre-incarnet christ was as close to being God as you could get, but unlike lucifer, he did not aspire to be God over this creation even-though He had helped create it.“..but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant and being made in the likeness of men..” Rather He chose to set aside His Glory and His spirit (not the Holy Spirit) was removed from His previous physical existence (a glorified body) so he could be born into our world.
Seekingtruth,I do have a small problem with your statement. Christ didn't help God with the creation. God created alone.
Isa:44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF;
Job 38:1-8
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
Genesis 1:1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Genesis 1:21
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was goodGenesis 1:27
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
I can't quite agree that He created alone, as Nick pointed out we are told in scripture Coll 1.15 “For by him all things were created…all things have been created through him”. He was the tool God used.I do agree that all things are from God He is the source.
Your brother in the Lord.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 09 2006,07:52) Quote (TJStarfire @ April 08 2006,20:04) This is just a silly distraction by which fools might be divided
by arguments and be easier to mislead.God is a spirit (John 4), His form is not of flesh, nor is it tied to flesh.
Christ was in the form of the spirits,
until the Jews corrupted Gods intent for mankind by claiming to be
the only people who were children of God, shunning all others.
If Jesus had just manifested himself in the flesh
He would not have been accepted as a Jew.:angry:He had to be born into the flesh to be considered a jew
to do that his consciousness divested itself from the spirit form
and was transferred Mary’s womb.
Hi TJS,
Why would scripture say Jesus was “CONCEIVED” if he was simply transferred into the womb of Mary?
Conception involves a father and a mother. Is God not his real Father and Mary not his real mother and if so why is scripture broken here?
We were concieved through a mother and a father and are in our present condition.
When we are reborn we are born again the correct way, without the act of sex.
In the rebirth we have a Father – God. Who is our mother?
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