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Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,02:55) The use of monogenes is not so meaningful as you may think it was used with Isaac as well but the fact is Isaac was not the only begotten of Abraham and we all know that so we must apply the same rules to gain understanding, what we can say is that Jesus was uniquely conceived and anointed just as Isaac was born from a barren womb. Yes, both were unique, and that is really what “monogenes” means. And it was ALWAYS used of a son or daughter. But you fail to see the key phrase in the verses I listed: he was the “monogenes of God”. Isaac was the unique son of Abraham, according to scripture, and the NT says Jesus was the “unique son of God”. There just is no escaping it.
Quote Adam was also called the son of God In Luke 3:38, where that phrase is found, there is no “genes” (the part of “monogenes” that shows descendency) listed. “Son of” is implied. The word used in other places in the Greek text for “son” is “uihos”, and this does not carry the same link back to the parent as “monogenes”. This is because the “genes” part makes the offspring a direct link back to the parent.
Quote Now consider that Adam was created without a Mother or Father and Jesus was born He was not called “monogenes”.
Quote So when God created the first man it was not with the command of his word “Be” because the scripture says that God formed the Man and breathed life into him whereas according to Islam Jesus was conceived by the word of God. So Jesus was “GoT” with a “Word” and it was “Be” Just as God had said “Let there be Light”
45 Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
46 “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”
47 She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!This is how he was “begotten”
Again, begotten is the term found in many bibles whenever you encounter “begotten”. But the true implied meaning of “monogenes” means “unique child of”. The “genes” (or “genos” if you view it as the second part of the compound word) is where we get the English words “gene” and “genus”. I don't think I need to tell you what these words mean?Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 12 2010,22:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,21:03) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 12 2010,16:56) “Son of God” is a phrase found in the Hebrew Bible, various other Jewish texts and the Christian Bible. In the holy Hebrew scriptures, according to Jewish religious tradition, “Son of God” has many possible meanings, referring to angels, or humans or even all mankind. According to most Christian denominations, it also refers to the relationship between Jesus and God, specifically as “God the Son”. (wikipedia) So Son/sons of God could refer to angels, people….. But theres only one God the son, being higher than people -or angels,
Diogneteus to Mathetes – “as a king sends his Son, who is also king, so sent he him,- as God he sent him; as men he sent him; as savior he sent him,…”
“First of all, believe that God is One, even He who created all things and set them in order, and brought all things from non-existence into being … God created the people, and delivered them over to His Son. And the Son placed the angels in charge of them … He showed them the paths of life, giving them the law, which He received from his Father. … He Himself is Lord of the people, having received all power from his Father. … The Son of God is older than all His creation, so that He became the Father's advisor in His creation. … no one will enter into the kingdom of God, unless he receives the name of His Son.” (The Shepherd of Hermas 1:1, 6:2, 6:3, 12:2, 12:4)
Enoch -2 “And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Hosts, And his name before the Ancient of Days. 3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before the stars of the heaven were made, His name was named before the Lord of Hosts. 4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, And he shall be the light of the Gentiles, And the hope of those who are troubled of heart. 5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Hosts. 6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him, Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
—-He was before the world, before man- so he is more than any other titles of “son/sons of God
It's not that I disagree with any of this but notice that the post never says what this name is. There is no mention whatsoever of the Name of Jesus although I definitely agree that it could apply.
But did I answer the question?Allthough the name is not mentioned in those writtings I gave you, Read John 1-18
Prehaps with this in mind:
… “as a king sends his Son, who is also king, so sent he him – as God he sent him…” (Diogneteus)
….. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
Once again we don't have the verse saying “Jesus” is the “Word” we see the scripture instead say that the Word became flesh but we don't have scripture saying “God” became flesh in-fact we have scripture that says the Opposite.So the Word of God is his expression you can see Jesus made this clear when he said:
John 10:34-35 (King James Version)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken
Now this is critical to understand
John 10:36-37 (King James Version)
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
So as you can see that instead of Jesus being born and the word of God coming to him, Jesus was born by the Word of God and therefore the Word of God is not Jesus but the Father/creator of Jesus and this is the uniqueness.
You see it says the Word “became” however those to whom the Word of God came to also “became” called gods
and children of the Most HighOne is from flesh to spirit the other from spirit to flesh so Mankind IS THE SON of GOD.
But this sonship is still the same as a vicegerant or a deputy it should not be understood in the literal sense because we are all creations including Jesus
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 12 2010,23:43) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 12 2010,00:29) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 10 2010,22:37) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 11 2010,15:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 10 2010,18:27) YET, Islam completely accepts JESUS and worships the God of the Jews.
You accept a Jesus that does not match the one described in the Greek New Testament.1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
Islam accepts that Jesus is The Christ. What are you talking about?
You conveniently missed the latter part of the verse“he who denies the Father and the Son“
See? According to the Christian scriptures, you do not completely accept Jesus for who he was supposed to be.
Hi Kejonn,Here is your proof, it seems BD has a very short memory.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 14 2009,06:03) Christ was crucified according to the scriptures but it was revealed in the Quran that it was believed that he was crucified but in fact God spared him from the cross
this is wonderful news but you prefer him being killed but you were not there and God knows best what occured.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 15 2009,06:02) So you admit atonement was made without the shedding of Blood?
Baptism is for the remission of sins and there is no blood in the act so how do you deny this?Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,04:04) Why did Jesus say that this was the work he was given to do and in-fact finished that work and that was before the cross was it not?
Also why did you add(in crucifixion)?Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,14:38) You believe that if they did not KILL him you would have no way to be redeemed, so you NEED murder of the innocent to justify your sins. Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,15:55) Perhaps him being crucified was not “the plan” Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 22 2009,18:41) I agree with you that the salvation of God is available to anyone who chooses to do the will of God (no blood necessary) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 15 2009,11:46) If Jesus Christ was Crucified and Killed there would be no remission of sins through his spilled blood in effect today as Paul rightfully said Hebrews 9:22 …without shedding of blood is no remission(of sins).
You are correct kejonn, BD's 'perception'=121 of God is 100% 'antichrist'=121!
Ed J
Actually what I wrote was very PRO-CHRIST.Salvation is based on submission to the will of God, this is what Jesus taught.
If the crucifixion was for the remission of sins what was the purpose of Baptism?
Mark 6:12 (King James Version)
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 5:31-33Luke 13:3 (King James Version)
3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:6-8Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
Luke 15:9-11Matthew 3:8 (King James Version)
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:16-18But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:12-14Islam calls sinners to repentence, If The Christians are righteous then the call is not to them but for sinners to repent, This is what Jesus did and preached
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 12 2010,23:43) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,02:55) The use of monogenes is not so meaningful as you may think it was used with Isaac as well but the fact is Isaac was not the only begotten of Abraham and we all know that so we must apply the same rules to gain understanding, what we can say is that Jesus was uniquely conceived and anointed just as Isaac was born from a barren womb. Yes, both were unique, and that is really what “monogenes” means. And it was ALWAYS used of a son or daughter. But you fail to see the key phrase in the verses I listed: he was the “monogenes of God”. Isaac was the unique son of Abraham, according to scripture, and the NT says Jesus was the “unique son of God”. There just is no escaping it.
Quote Adam was also called the son of God In Luke 3:38, where that phrase is found, there is no “genes” (the part of “monogenes” that shows descendency) listed. “Son of” is implied. The word used in other places in the Greek text for “son” is “uihos”, and this does not carry the same link back to the parent as “monogenes”. This is because the “genes” part makes the offspring a direct link back to the parent.
Quote Now consider that Adam was created without a Mother or Father and Jesus was born He was not called “monogenes”.
Quote So when God created the first man it was not with the command of his word “Be” because the scripture says that God formed the Man and breathed life into him whereas according to Islam Jesus was conceived by the word of God. So Jesus was “GoT” with a “Word” and it was “Be” Just as God had said “Let there be Light”
45 Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
46 “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”
47 She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!This is how he was “begotten”
Again, begotten is the term found in many bibles whenever you encounter “begotten”. But the true implied meaning of “monogenes” means “unique child of”. The “genes” (or “genos” if you view it as the second part of the compound word) is where we get the English words “gene” and “genus”. I don't think I need to tell you what these words mean?
Still further we know the word genus means “kind” and of course he was created uniquely the angel even says:And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:34-36Notice the angel said this is The Son of God but yet he shall be called the Son of God so once again we see the term son referring to the anointed and he is The Christ who was uniquely conceived there is no argument with any of this.
I really have no problem with people using the term Son of God as long as they understand that there is no Son that is not a Servant of God and are in no way Comparable to God in anyway other than God given attributes and power.
Ok Bod I'll leave it at that, as in iv said all I need in regards to my opinion of who Jesus is,
I dont know what Gods plans are for us all, I have no idea of what the 'truth' definatly is, but its pretty obvious from creation God loves a variety of everything.
God I think calls up people for different things also. Gods will be done not ours.:)
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 13 2010,09:55) Ok Bod I'll leave it at that, as in iv said all I need in regards to my opinion of who Jesus is, I dont know what Gods plans are for us all, I have no idea of what the 'truth' definatly is, but its pretty obvious from creation God loves a variety of everything.
God I think calls up people for different things also. Gods will be done not ours.:)
There really is no disagreement we both believe that Jesus is God's right hand man, we both believe that all those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God i.e. The Christ will not perish and even the Quran says it as well.Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,10:21) Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 13 2010,09:55) Ok Bod I'll leave it at that, as in iv said all I need in regards to my opinion of who Jesus is, I dont know what Gods plans are for us all, I have no idea of what the 'truth' definatly is, but its pretty obvious from creation God loves a variety of everything.
God I think calls up people for different things also. Gods will be done not ours.:)
There really is no disagreement we both believe that Jesus is God's right hand man, we both believe that all those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God i.e. The Christ will not perish and even the Quran says it as well.
I agree!
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,14:03) Still further we know the word genus means “kind” and of course he was created uniquely the angel even says: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:34-36Notice the angel said this is The Son of God but yet he shall be called the Son of God so once again we see the term son referring to the anointed and he is The Christ who was uniquely conceived there is no argument with any of this.
I really have no problem with people using the term Son of God as long as they understand that there is no Son that is not a Servant of God and are in no way Comparable to God in anyway other than God given attributes and power.
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 13 2010,14:15) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,14:03) Still further we know the word genus means “kind” and of course he was created uniquely the angel even says: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:34-36Notice the angel said this is The Son of God but yet he shall be called the Son of God so once again we see the term son referring to the anointed and he is The Christ who was uniquely conceived there is no argument with any of this.
I really have no problem with people using the term Son of God as long as they understand that there is no Son that is not a Servant of God and are in no way Comparable to God in anyway other than God given attributes and power.
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?
Mono menas One and Genes comes from the word Kind(Genus)It simply means one of a kind son
Isaac was called also a one of a kind son although Abraham had 7 children
Being that he is called a one of a kind son by virtue of the Virgin birth this also precludes his pre-existence
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,23:16) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 13 2010,14:15) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,14:03) Still further we know the word genus means “kind” and of course he was created uniquely the angel even says: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:34-36Notice the angel said this is The Son of God but yet he shall be called the Son of God so once again we see the term son referring to the anointed and he is The Christ who was uniquely conceived there is no argument with any of this.
I really have no problem with people using the term Son of God as long as they understand that there is no Son that is not a Servant of God and are in no way Comparable to God in anyway other than God given attributes and power.
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?
Mono menas One and Genes comes from the word Kind(Genus)It simply means one of a kind son
Isaac was called also a one of a kind son although Abraham had 7 children
Being that he is called a one of a kind son by virtue of the Virgin birth this also precludes his pre-existence
I asked you a question, I did not request diversion.Please show me any other place in Christian scripture were “monogenes” did not show the relationship of blood parent and child. Thanks!
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 14 2010,12:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,23:16) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 13 2010,14:15) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 12 2010,14:03) Still further we know the word genus means “kind” and of course he was created uniquely the angel even says: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:34-36Notice the angel said this is The Son of God but yet he shall be called the Son of God so once again we see the term son referring to the anointed and he is The Christ who was uniquely conceived there is no argument with any of this.
I really have no problem with people using the term Son of God as long as they understand that there is no Son that is not a Servant of God and are in no way Comparable to God in anyway other than God given attributes and power.
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?
Mono menas One and Genes comes from the word Kind(Genus)It simply means one of a kind son
Isaac was called also a one of a kind son although Abraham had 7 children
Being that he is called a one of a kind son by virtue of the Virgin birth this also precludes his pre-existence
I asked you a question, I did not request diversion.Please show me any other place in Christian scripture were “monogenes” did not show the relationship of blood parent and child. Thanks!
God does not bleed, God is a Spirit.Why would there be another usage when it clearly says one of a kind son.
But the fact is the word son itself is used metaphorically in many cases in the bible
“The sons of thunder”
“The sons of God”and so on.
Clearly the emphases is on uniqueness and not physicality
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,21:18) God does not bleed, God is a Spirit. Why would there be another usage when it clearly says one of a kind son.
But the fact is the word son itself is used metaphorically in many cases in the bible
“The sons of thunder”
“The sons of God”and so on.
Clearly the emphases is on uniqueness and not physicality
Bleed? Where did I ask for that? Another diversion.Seriously dude, admission of defeat is not so bad. Or is humility a bad trait in Islam?
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 14 2010,14:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,21:18) God does not bleed, God is a Spirit. Why would there be another usage when it clearly says one of a kind son.
But the fact is the word son itself is used metaphorically in many cases in the bible
“The sons of thunder”
“The sons of God”and so on.
Clearly the emphases is on uniqueness and not physicality
Bleed? Where did I ask for that? Another diversion.Seriously dude, admission of defeat is not so bad. Or is humility a bad trait in Islam?
You said BLOOD parentQuote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,23:54) You said BLOOD parent
Dishonesty becomes you.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 12 2010,21:15)
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 14 2010,17:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,23:54) You said BLOOD parent
Dishonesty becomes you.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 12 2010,21:15)
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?
Hi Kejonn,God bless you Kejonn in pushing for “Truth”!
BD works very hard to dodge all questions that he doesn't like!
Ed J
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 14 2010,17:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 13 2010,23:54) You said BLOOD parent
Dishonesty becomes you.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 12 2010,21:15)
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?
Kejonn, you wrote the quote below:[Quote]I asked you a question, I did not request diversion.
Please show me any other place in Christian scripture were “monogenes” did not show the relationship of blood parent and child. Thanks![/B]
Therefore I responded that God does not bleed. Shouldn't you apologize for calling me dishonest about this?
Kejonn, you wrote the quote below:
Quote I asked you a question, I did not request diversion. Please show me any other place in Christian scripture were “monogenes” did not show the relationship of blood parent and child. Thanks!
Therefore I responded that God does not bleed. Shouldn't you apologize for calling me dishonest about this?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 14 2010,14:41) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 14 2010,17:13) bodhitharta,Jan. wrote:You said BLOOD parent
Dishonesty becomes you.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 12 2010,21:15)
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?
Kejonn, you wrote the quote below:Quote I asked you a question, I did not request diversion. Please show me any other place in Christian scripture were “monogenes” did not show the relationship of blood parent and child. Thanks![/B]
Therefore I responded that God does not bleed. Shouldn't you apologize for calling me dishonest about this?
Ah, thanks for pointing it out, so I do apologize.In any case, the term “blood parent” has little to do with “bleeding” but the fact that “monogenes” was always used to show a direct, genetic (thus “genes”) relationship between parent and offspring.
This being the case, my question still has not been answered by you: Can you show where “monogenes” was not used for a direct genetic parent-offspring relationship?
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 15 2010,14:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 14 2010,14:41) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 14 2010,17:13) bodhitharta,Jan. wrote:You said BLOOD parent
Dishonesty becomes you.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 12 2010,21:15)
Can she show me where the Greek word “monogenes” was not used for the physical descendant of another?
Kejonn, you wrote the quote below:Quote I asked you a question, I did not request diversion. Please show me any other place in Christian scripture were “monogenes” did not show the relationship of blood parent and child. Thanks![/B]
Therefore I responded that God does not bleed. Shouldn't you apologize for calling me dishonest about this?
Ah, thanks for pointing it out, so I do apologize.In any case, the term “blood parent” has little to do with “bleeding” but the fact that “monogenes” was always used to show a direct, genetic (thus “genes”) relationship between parent and offspring.
This being the case, my question still has not been answered by you: Can you show where “monogenes” was not used for a direct genetic parent-offspring relationship?
It really isn't used that many times but no I cannot show you that but that doesn't mean that God is the genetic Father of Jesus it just means that Jesus was made a one of a kind son of MARY. Mary contributed 100% of the genetic material of JESUS he is the son of MARY and the anointed of GOD.This is the whole importance that Mary was a virgin
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 14 2010,21:32) It really isn't used that many times but no I cannot show you that but that doesn't mean that God is the genetic Father of Jesus it just means that Jesus was made a one of a kind son of MARY. Mary contributed 100% of the genetic material of JESUS he is the son of MARY and the anointed of GOD. This is the whole importance that Mary was a virgin
IOW, the answer is “NO”.Now, either you say the Christian scriptures are wrong, or you admit they are right about Jesus.
Where will you stand?
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