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Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 04 2010,08:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 03 2010,13:01) How is tolerance “agreement”?
I don't fight against people I tolerate.
sure you do, do you ever send back food at a restaraunt and get into an exchange with the server or waiter?Do you ever argue with a friend over something they did that you completely disagree with?
Ever fight with a lover or spouse?
Of course you have done all thee above and these are glaring examples of how you fought with and tolerated people.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 03 2010,21:33) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 04 2010,08:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 03 2010,13:01) How is tolerance “agreement”?
I don't fight against people I tolerate.
sure you do, do you ever send back food at a restaraunt and get into an exchange with the server or waiter?Do you ever argue with a friend over something they did that you completely disagree with?
Ever fight with a lover or spouse?
Of course you have done all thee above and these are glaring examples of how you fought with and tolerated people.
Should we keep on with this? You will only stretch the imagination to make your scriptures try to appear more palatable.Disagreements with someone do not have anything to do with an order to “fight against” other people. And lest you forget another part of those verses, Christians and Jews are called perverse. IOW, the Quran is saying they are wrong and that is why they should be fought against.
This gets back to your examples. In those instances, one is “fighting against” another because of some wrong they are supposedly committing (or at least one party thinks the other is wrong). That is not tolerance of another religion then.
If I tolerate another's religion, I will not argue with them over it. To tolerate would be to agree to disagree. I might think the other person is wrong, but I would leave it at that. I would not “fight against” them.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 05 2010,00:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 03 2010,21:33) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 04 2010,08:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 03 2010,13:01) How is tolerance “agreement”?
I don't fight against people I tolerate.
sure you do, do you ever send back food at a restaraunt and get into an exchange with the server or waiter?Do you ever argue with a friend over something they did that you completely disagree with?
Ever fight with a lover or spouse?
Of course you have done all thee above and these are glaring examples of how you fought with and tolerated people.
Should we keep on with this? You will only stretch the imagination to make your scriptures try to appear more palatable.Disagreements with someone do not have anything to do with an order to “fight against” other people. And lest you forget another part of those verses, Christians and Jews are called perverse. IOW, the Quran is saying they are wrong and that is why they should be fought against.
This gets back to your examples. In those instances, one is “fighting against” another because of some wrong they are supposedly committing (or at least one party thinks the other is wrong). That is not tolerance of another religion then.
If I tolerate another's religion, I will not argue with them over it. To tolerate would be to agree to disagree. I might think the other person is wrong, but I would leave it at that. I would not “fight against” them.
Your missing the point fighting happens only because of those who wish to fight against IslamExcept those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #90)
Does that make it clearer for you?
(15) But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
( Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #61)(49) If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies then make peace between them with justice and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just).
( Al-Hujraat, Chapter #49, Verse #9)The fact is there are practicing Christians in Muslim countries with no conflict between them if Muslims were intolerant of them there would be no practicing their religion in peace and security which for the most part they do.
defending oneself is not acting intolerable
The above merely shows me that the Quran can be s contradictory as any other man-written text. It is basically speaking out of both sides of the mouth.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 05 2010,08:26) The above merely shows me that the Quran can be s contradictory as any other man-written text. It is basically speaking out of both sides of the mouth.
Do we not discover who is evil and who is not through the interpretation of knowledge?People will be judged according to their heart and intent.
It's like bumping into someone, some take it as a funny mistake, some take it as an intentional bump, some take it as a mild annoyance.
It's like a hungry cat coming to your front porch, some take it as an opportunity to relieve suffering and feed it or even keep it, some take it as an opportunity to get it removed from their property and some take it as an opportunity to kill it or injure it.
The Quran is clear:
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #62)You need to understand that the entire text speaks of enjoining all to excel in good and right action.
BD, I don't want to turn this into a thread about the Quran. But I will say this plainly: you have taken verses from other parts of the Quran that basically contradict what I gave. You did not address the passage I listed in its context. Christians often do the same with the bible when they want to avoid discussing a problem passage. They pretend that good words in one place override bad ones in another, and often ignore context.
Also, above, even you emphasize that the Christians, Jews, and Sabians must believe in the Islamic version of things in order to be blessed. Again, that shows that Islam is not as tolerant as you say.
This will be my last response on this subject in this thread.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 06 2010,01:38) BD, I don't want to turn this into a thread about the Quran. But I will say this plainly: you have taken verses from other parts of the Quran that basically contradict what I gave. You did not address the passage I listed in its context. Christians often do the same with the bible when they want to avoid discussing a problem passage. They pretend that good words in one place override bad ones in another, and often ignore context. Also, above, even you emphasize that the Christians, Jews, and Sabians must believe in the Islamic version of things in order to be blessed. Again, that shows that Islam is not as tolerant as you say.
This will be my last response on this subject in this thread.
The only point I originally made was that there is no different God of the Christians or the Jews or the Sabians or whatever so that verse is not talking about these groups shifting their belief from one God to another God it is stating a fact that these people all have the same God.I think this is the part that you are having a problem grasping and it's because of a polytheistic consciousness.
Obviously we know from all these scriptures that God does not tolerate certain behaviours for too long before their are consequences he sends a warner and then destruction is soon to follow this is in all the scriptures because it is the SAME ONE GOD.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2010,11:21) Obviously we know from all these scriptures that God does not tolerate certain behaviours for too long before their are consequences he sends a warner and then destruction is soon to follow this is in all the scriptures because it is the SAME ONE GOD.
I will address this because it is not Quran specific.If the god of the Jews = god of the Christians = god of the Muslims, why do you all not have more unison? Why do the Jews reject Jesus and the Muslims have a different view of who he was? Why do very few Jews and Christians accept the validity of the Quran or Mohammed as a true prophet?
This cannot happen if you all claim to follow the same god.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 06 2010,06:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2010,11:21) Obviously we know from all these scriptures that God does not tolerate certain behaviours for too long before their are consequences he sends a warner and then destruction is soon to follow this is in all the scriptures because it is the SAME ONE GOD.
I will address this because it is not Quran specific.If the god of the Jews = god of the Christians = god of the Muslims, why do you all not have more unison? Why do the Jews reject Jesus and the Muslims have a different view of who he was? Why do very few Jews and Christians accept the validity of the Quran or Mohammed as a true prophet?
This cannot happen if you all claim to follow the same god.
First of all you already know that Jesus was a Jew so obviously he worshipped the God of the Jews and secondly Islam is following the religion of Abraham and his son Ishmael and therefor once again the same GOD.each rejection leads to introspection and introspection leads to truth.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2010,19:48) First of all you already know that Jesus was a Jew so obviously he worshipped the God of the Jews and secondly Islam is following the religion of Abraham and his son Ishmael and therefor once again the same GOD. each rejection leads to introspection and introspection leads to truth.
Jesus was a Jew. Check. Yet it was not he that went to the Gentiles with a new religion, that was Paul.Ishmael was pretty much cast to the side by whoever wrote the passages concerning him in Genesis. He was not the son of promise, so he was pretty much worthless to Yahweh.
If the same god leads all, then he should be able to straighten the contentions you all have between yourselves out. But it seems he cannot even keep unison among those who belong to the same blanket groups!
Again, this all points towards men making the rules — their own rules — not a single defining deity.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 06 2010,14:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 05 2010,19:48) First of all you already know that Jesus was a Jew so obviously he worshipped the God of the Jews and secondly Islam is following the religion of Abraham and his son Ishmael and therefor once again the same GOD. each rejection leads to introspection and introspection leads to truth.
Jesus was a Jew. Check. Yet it was not he that went to the Gentiles with a new religion, that was Paul.Ishmael was pretty much cast to the side by whoever wrote the passages concerning him in Genesis. He was not the son of promise, so he was pretty much worthless to Yahweh.
If the same god leads all, then he should be able to straighten the contentions you all have between yourselves out. But it seems he cannot even keep unison among those who belong to the same blanket groups!
Again, this all points towards men making the rules — their own rules — not a single defining deity.
Paul was also a Jew.Regarding Ishmael the passage “the first shall be last and the last shall be firt applies”
There is a purpose to contentiouness it was not meant for man to be without conflict just like gold that must be smelted or diamonds that are formed under pressure.
Pressure and conflict only ends for the person who has overcome and has tempered the soul through submitting to God.
The fact is disobedience brings upon conflict and conflict brings correction or combat either way eventually submission is obtained through surrender or death.
The first will be last and the last will be first
——————————————————————————–
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard-Matthew 20
1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3“About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.
“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9“The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13“But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” – Matthew 20.
Out of the 3 Abrahamic faiths, first was the Jews , then the Christians, lastly the Muslims. All worshipping the same God
That makes Islam the last of the three for the end days ,
People hate the Islamic religeon: ….Jesus said…. 18“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
I dont see the world hating Christianity- anymore
Ishmael: ……”He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”- Gen 16
Ishmaels name means 'God hears'
the 'latter rain' in the end days which Christianity personally waits for:
….I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions. …Joel 2- 28Jesus is today showing himself to Muslims, holding out his hand and telling them to follow him, they are by the thousands going, These thousands are only the ones who dared to tell of the dreams and visions they are having. They appear to be the only ones of the 3 who are having these dreams and visions.
Quote (karmarie @ Jan. 06 2010,20:23) The first will be last and the last will be first ——————————————————————————–
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard-Matthew 20
1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3“About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5So they went.
“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7“‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8“When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9“The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13“But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” – Matthew 20.
Out of the 3 Abrahamic faiths, first was the Jews , then the Christians, lastly the Muslims. All worshipping the same God
That makes Islam the last of the three for the end days ,
People hate the Islamic religeon: ….Jesus said…. 18“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
I dont see the world hating Christianity- anymore
Ishmael: ……”He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”- Gen 16
Ishmaels name means 'God hears'
the 'latter rain' in the end days which Christianity personally waits for:
….I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions. …Joel 2- 28Jesus is today showing himself to Muslims, holding out his hand and telling them to follow him, they are by the thousands going, These thousands are only the ones who dared to tell of the dreams and visions they are having. They appear to be the only ones of the 3 who are having these dreams and visions.
Riddle.. an the kingdom of heaven is in your heart? tipacul .. the more one works the less one earns the less one works the more one earns..wow.. What a new government?smile
Theres no excuse tho for violence in Christianity, they are supposed to have allready found the Prince of Peace
Although this is another thread derail, the application of “Prince of Peace” was something given to Jesus much later than the NT. He was never given that title by any of the NT writers, just as the concept of “rapture” was a more recent invention.
Mat 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Luk 12:51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,01:36) Paul was also a Jew. Or so he claimed. What makes you think he was not actually a Gentile claiming to be a Jew?
Quote Regarding Ishmael the passage “the first shall be last and the last shall be firt applies” Totally out of context.
Quote There is a purpose to contentiouness it was not meant for man to be without conflict just like gold that must be smelted or diamonds that are formed under pressure. Pressure and conflict only ends for the person who has overcome and has tempered the soul through submitting to God.
The fact is disobedience brings upon conflict and conflict brings correction or combat either way eventually submission is obtained through surrender or death.
Since we do not know who has the “correct” view of the Abrahamic deity, and this god is unwilling to set the record straight, I guess we'll never see an end to the conflicts.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 07 2010,00:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 06 2010,01:36) Paul was also a Jew. Or so he claimed. What makes you think he was not actually a Gentile claiming to be a Jew?
Quote Regarding Ishmael the passage “the first shall be last and the last shall be firt applies” Totally out of context.
Quote There is a purpose to contentiouness it was not meant for man to be without conflict just like gold that must be smelted or diamonds that are formed under pressure. Pressure and conflict only ends for the person who has overcome and has tempered the soul through submitting to God.
The fact is disobedience brings upon conflict and conflict brings correction or combat either way eventually submission is obtained through surrender or death.
Since we do not know who has the “correct” view of the Abrahamic deity, and this god is unwilling to set the record straight, I guess we'll never see an end to the conflicts.
The record is being set straight through Conflict, you just don't like the method.Ezekiel 13:9-11 (King James Version)
9And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
10Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
Jeremiah 8:10-12 (King James Version)
10Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
11For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
12Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
No one likes these parts of the Bible but without understanding them blindness remains.
……And did not Allah Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #251)Well, if you want to trot out Tanach passages to prove some point about Islam, let's be consistent:
Zec 8:20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities.
Zec 8:21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, 'Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the LORD and to seek the LORD of hosts; I myself am going.'
Zec 8:22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'”
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