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Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 01 2010,22:28) Hi KeJohn: As I have said and I believe you stated your self there are people in every religion that have experienced
God to their great satisfaction, having prayers answered, healings occur, being showed visions and the such
Actually I shouldn't post in this thread because I am not really debating but my point is for everyone else here
in which I will say:your personal testimonies cannot hold “more” validity than someone elses personal testimonies. It's like
relationships, some people apply themselves in their relationships and have nothing but good things to report about their friends, spouses, work…etc. Others report that women are trouble, work is difficult and friends are undependableA person cannot escape their intent. How could it be so that some here believe that if someone grew up in some religion unfamiliar to them and that person had full intent of pursuing that path purely with Love and Joy that God would somehow choose destruction for them?
That simply would make no sense. This is why the Quran says to not mock the religion of others because you would be Mocking ALLAH/YHVH/THE CREATOR out of ignorance assuming it was some “other” GOD
6:108 Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.
Thanks for the response. I won't get into anything about the Quran because I know little to nothing about it. I will say that there does seem to be an issue with Islam's contradictory statements, however. You state that the Quran says to not mock the religion of others, yet there are other instances where the “infidel” is to be treated harshly. Those two do not seem to jive too well.Quote (Stu @ Jan. 02 2010,18:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2010,17:00) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 02 2010,16:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2010,16:48) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 02 2010,15:36) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 02 2010,09:13) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 02 2010,06:55) Still no theist yet prepared to use the word 'because'… Stuart
Not so STU,I said BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER GOD
No you didn't, you said:“…not another actual God because that would be impossible”.
…which I acknowledge nevertheless as your use of the word because.
…but which in turn is not really an answer to a why question. WHY is it impossible?
Stuart
It is Impossible because GOD is the Originator and therefore THE SUPREME
[Sorry kejonn!]BD
Not good enough. Define what you mean by 'originator', and 'supreme'. You haven't even said which god you are promoting here! That is the whole point of the thread. Why YOUR god and not someone else's SINGLE god?
Stuart
There is no other God? So asking which god is redundant.You know what Prime means?
ADJECTIVE: 1. First in excellence, quality, or value
So we are talking about Zeus then. There is no other. Thanks for clearing that up for us.Stuart
How is it that by spurting out all types of names it can somehow cause there to be more than One God, The Jews have 99 names for God and the Muslims have another 99 names for God names of Someone do not increase the quantity.Because there is NO OTHER GOD.
It seems to me the root of your atheism is in your polytheistic view: You don't believe in “gods” and therefore assume there is no “God”
You come across as a disgruntled theist.
Zeus
supreme god of the ancient Greeks,Jupiter
c.1200, “supreme deity of the ancient Romansdeus
“God, a god,” see Zeus; c.1300 as a Fr. interjection; never nativized, but appearing in adopted Latin expressions such as deus absconditus “hidden god.”Now clearly you can see what Jupiter was to the romans, Zeus was to the greeks it doesn't mean that there is Jupiter and Zeus just 2 different names to explain what they understood as “God”
Now if you notice as time has proceeded the many understandings are narrowing down headed towards ONE
Now most people recognize most of the primitive understandings as Myth.
Think about it this way science fiction books often speak of things that seem to come from the imagination but as those things become actual technologies the understanding becomes rather narrow.
There is a science to Aviation that at once was not truly known nor understood but the fact is the capability had always been there.
I am a musician and I will tell you that when I was a boy I often imagined being able to do what I do today with digital workstations, synthesizers, and computer recording studio. In my imagination it never was quite like it looks and feels but guess what the principles of Music didn't change. When I play a violin, I play a “sound called violin” If you describe the violin instrument and how to play it, it will be foreign to me because I cannot understand(Have not learned) how to play a violin and yet I play the digital sound of the violin and have convinced those who know the instrument that it is the instrument.
You have to understand time is moving from a state of confusion to one of clarity.
Look today in the world why there is still some residue belief in 'gods' The most concentrated belief is on the Jewish understanding of God
This Monotheism is the result of “God” actually dealing with a people directly and teaching them directly about Him
There is no other religion on the face of the earth that claims to have witnessed God as a people. You can look in any Holy Book anywhere and you will not find it. The Jews as a nation witnessed God directly
There is not even a similar claim from other people as a Nation.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 03 2010,03:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 01 2010,22:28) Hi KeJohn: As I have said and I believe you stated your self there are people in every religion that have experienced
God to their great satisfaction, having prayers answered, healings occur, being showed visions and the such
Actually I shouldn't post in this thread because I am not really debating but my point is for everyone else here
in which I will say:your personal testimonies cannot hold “more” validity than someone elses personal testimonies. It's like
relationships, some people apply themselves in their relationships and have nothing but good things to report about their friends, spouses, work…etc. Others report that women are trouble, work is difficult and friends are undependableA person cannot escape their intent. How could it be so that some here believe that if someone grew up in some religion unfamiliar to them and that person had full intent of pursuing that path purely with Love and Joy that God would somehow choose destruction for them?
That simply would make no sense. This is why the Quran says to not mock the religion of others because you would be Mocking ALLAH/YHVH/THE CREATOR out of ignorance assuming it was some “other” GOD
6:108 Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.
Thanks for the response. I won't get into anything about the Quran because I know little to nothing about it. I will say that there does seem to be an issue with Islam's contradictory statements, however. You state that the Quran says to not mock the religion of others, yet there are other instances where the “infidel” is to be treated harshly. Those two do not seem to jive too well.
Infidels who mock, oppress and cause harm through mischief or violence.Infidels who simply are peaceful infidels should not be treated harshly by believers
(8) Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; But turn away from the ignorant.
( Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #199)(17) But if they turn away, thy duty is only to preach the clear Message.
( An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #82)(18) And even if thou hast to turn away from them in pursuit of the Mercy from thy Lord which thou dost expect, yet speak to them a word of easy kindness.
( Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #28)(33) And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: “To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant.”
( Al-Qasas, Chapter #28, Verse #55)BD, what of these verses?
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (9:29) And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!(9:30)
Doesn't look like those who believe differently are tolerated after all, according to these verses.
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 03 2010,00:05) Instead of defending your Aquinine argument against the point that it only picks on particular positive traits for this god to be the best at, and ignores the bad things it could be also called best at, and ignores the possibility of a dead heat between two gods, instead you have opted for the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Not your finest moment in debate t8. That is three fallacies and one instance of ignoring the proposition.
Are you serious about this debate?
Stu, as I said before, it was just a small point I was making. It wasn't a full reply (as I have plenty to say on this subject) and it wasn't meant to be a knock out punch. It was nothing but a jab, or a point that will help frame what may come next.I think you need to stand still for a while and see what is really happening instead of jumping to all kinds of conclusions that are really non-issues.
And yes, I still think you were being childish. A mature person is more patient and understanding. A child sometimes wants everything now and is demanding.
It would be better if you acted your age. I would find it more of a pleasure to debate with you in that case.
Please take things for what they are and what they are intended. Not every post is suppose to be a complete answer. I often answer small points when I do not have time and bigger posts when I do.
That is life, get use to it.
kejonn,
I apologize I did misunderstand you, I have known people who believe that there are many possible, even conflicting, truths.I agree that if you accept there is a supernatural realm then by it's very nature we are unable to verify the truths of it via empirical means and conclusive proof is hard to come by without it. So lacking the ability to “prove” anything supernatural we are left with the question are we justified in accepting it as a “belief”, especially with history being full of so many false presuppositions.
You ask “Why should I believe your god is real while disbelieving other gods?” I would like to ask if you believe in the supernatural, and if so do you believe in a supreme being?
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 02 2010,18:42) kejonn,
I apologize I did misunderstand you, I have known people who believe that there are many possible, even conflicting, truths.I agree that if you accept there is a supernatural realm then by it's very nature we are unable to verify the truths of it via empirical means and conclusive proof is hard to come by without it. So lacking the ability to “prove” anything supernatural we are left with the question are we justified in accepting it as a “belief”, especially with history being full of so many false presuppositions.
You ask “Why should I believe your god is real while disbelieving other gods?” I would like to ask if you believe in the supernatural, and if so do you believe in a supreme being?
Wm
Thanks for understanding.As to your question, I do not really believe in the supernatural. I am agnostic as far as god belief goes, though you can tell from my earlier posting history here that this has not always been so. I am now, as the group name says, a skeptic. So that means I am skeptical of the supernatural.
But, my nature is to be skeptical of many things until I can be convinced. If someone tells me I ought to try some new restaurant because the food is good, I seek out the opinions of several others before I try it. Not always (I travel out of town and have to take a chance from time to time), but most of the time.
I do the same with other things I am not familiar with.
In any case, this thread is not really about you proving the reality of your god, but rather why I should not believe someone else's god is real. For instance, why should I not believe in the Hindu pantheon as opposed to the Abrahamic god?
The task for theists, then, is to show how others have a false belief without simply pointing to your holy texts which might state other gods are false. That simply is not enough.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 03 2010,10:04) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 03 2010,00:05) Instead of defending your Aquinine argument against the point that it only picks on particular positive traits for this god to be the best at, and ignores the bad things it could be also called best at, and ignores the possibility of a dead heat between two gods, instead you have opted for the logical fallacy of ad hominem. Not your finest moment in debate t8. That is three fallacies and one instance of ignoring the proposition.
Are you serious about this debate?
Stu, as I said before, it was just a small point I was making. It wasn't a full reply (as I have plenty to say on this subject) and it wasn't meant to be a knock out punch. It was nothing but a jab, or a point that will help frame what may come next.I think you need to stand still for a while and see what is really happening instead of jumping to all kinds of conclusions that are really non-issues.
And yes, I still think you were being childish. A mature person is more patient and understanding. A child sometimes wants everything now and is demanding.
It would be better if you acted your age. I would find it more of a pleasure to debate with you in that case.
Please take things for what they are and what they are intended. Not every post is suppose to be a complete answer. I often answer small points when I do not have time and bigger posts when I do.
That is life, get use to it.
So I need to stop every time and ask you if you have posted all you wanted to say on that point, or whether we are waiting further pearls of brilliance from you before we finally respond to your eminence?Stuart
No it goes without saying. If someone makes one point, then that might be a signal that it is not a complete thesis or essay on the required reply to the original post. Also look for what is quoted in a persons' post, as what comes after that is usually a reply for that quote. Do you have any other questions regarding posting in forums?
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 03 2010,16:08) So I need to stop every time and ask you if you have posted all you wanted to say on that point, or whether we are waiting further pearls of brilliance from you before we finally respond to your eminence?
Just expect that no one will reply fully and if they do, that is a bonus. If everyone had to post full answers to every topic, we would spend half our lives on Heaven Net. However, if you think we should all spend half our lives on Heaven Net, then I might go along with that after I have plastered the forums with ads.kejonn,
I went through a crisis of faith myself a couple of years ago; I was fired, my business was stolen from me (aided by a Christian brother), the investor sued me to avoid honoring contracts, the lawsuit drained us of all our savings, out of money, I had to give him his way on everything, I couldn't find a job, later that year our house was robbed taking over $25k of goods. At first I tried to maintain a Christ like attitude but after getting sued a second time, once again for something I could prove was false if I could have afforded to take it to court (and by Christian brothers put up to it by the investor) I felt that God had abandoned me, if He even existed, I had truly tried to do everything in a way to please God and it was just so unfair, was this was my reward for the self sacrifices I had made in running the business in a Christ like manner! I began to re-evaluate what I believed and my reasons for believing it.I had plenty of reasons to be bitter but knew that didn't hurt anyone but me. However if there wasn't a God of righteousness then life was pointless and those who had ripped me off had gotten away with it and there truly was no justice in this world.
To make a long story short I did a lot of soul searching, my conclusions were;
There must be one all encompassing truth.
I had to believe that there was more then just this life, you can call it wishful thinking if you like, but I felt there was just no way that everything came from nothing and that life was just some big accident.
I then turned my questioning to God, to be honest I relied on my initial search 27 years earlier and stuck for the most part with the God of the bible but everything else was on the table and subject to scrutiny.
The end of it was I found the trial to be a blessing, I learned contentment, to count my blessings, I received revelations on truths I had never dreamed possible and I saw much of the conflicts in my faith disappear. So much more of the Bible has gained relevance for me and God has met our every need despite 2 1/2 years with no paychecks.
I only wish I could offer you the proof you want. I pray you don't let all the false teachings from me or others trip you up, for me I found that forsaking pet theories (no matter how dearly held they were) and being intent on only the truth was a big part of moving on with life (No I don't expect you to take my word on what I found but the advise is good no matter what direction you choose).
One point I do want to make is that I have done my best in choosing what I believe to be truths, I could be wrong but I hope to continue seeking (and accepting) truths and I believe that as long as I have been honest in my efforts, God will be pleased even if I still have errors in my beliefs once I die.
I do agree that we should question everything, as long as we're looking for answers.
My opinion – Wm
For me, I was raised in a Christian home, Baptist and Catholic, at school, I hung out with all sorts, then in College I started hanging with some Christians, I started smoking and my Christian “friends” stuck their nose up and deserted me. (so I hung out with the bad crowd who accepted me better)
I became a young mum at 19, and my partner joined a Christian church, (I didnt), they told him that as we werent legally wed, our child was born in sin, and that we had to get married. I said no, (not when someone like them whos pulling him away from me tells us we have to), they told him to leave me, and also told him to have nothing to do with his child. He listened to them they had him so sucked in, I had to raise my son as a young mother without him, no family or friends (new town), they and he hurt me.
So my experience with Christians was never good. I didnt like them much, Though I believed in Jesus, I read the bible now and then (as in a quick flick through a few pages sometimes), and whenever I got hurt or scared id pray.
One day I was doing the housework, and a bible verse was stuck in my head and I found it odd that it was. So I had to hunt my sons room for a bible, and then looked it up, it was a very harsh message not to take the Lords name in vain. Another verse came after that in the same way but somewhere else in the bible, and it was a threat that bad things would happen if I carried on taking the Lords name in vain. I was scared, because thats exactly what id been doing for the last few mounths. And it wasnt something id ever done in the past.God had been watching me! I told everyone about it. A few hours later the same thing happened, another verse, I looked it up and it said -the Lord disciplines those he loves – what a comfort! That started off a long communication in exactly the same way. I would ask a question in prayer about something and a verse would come and answer it, just like a two way conversation.
Too freaky for me to ignore. I didnt know the bible and I still dont really.
I think what got the ball rolling was I had a strong belief in Justice, and someone close to me had been mistreated by some higher authorities and I was so angry, I was fighting for him and I believ God loves justice too. And saw my tears and frustration.
Other unreal things were happening too. Some too personal to put on a forum for all to read especially as it concerns other people, but iv prayed for people and theyve been completly healed, and it lasted, whatever they had wrong didnt return. Most still dont know I prayed for them, one example is a neighbour who spent years nuting off, yelling obsenities, violent, ambulances and police at his place ALL the time , one day id just had enough, I prayed that he stop it and be healed. Hes been normal ever since, not a single episode again, hes a different person. Hes lasted years. I just knew he was healed as I prayed and this is how it goes. My “husbands” another one. He had a complete healing from something pretty serious. I had prayed over him as he slept. He woke a different person. I had lumps in the back of my head, I dont know what they were but they hurt and were big (glands I now think), I freaked I had tumours at the time and prayed and said I didnt want to lose my thinking ability right now so please get rid of them. I was told (By God) that they would go and that id be sick for a few days as they go out. I spent days with stomach cramps so bad I was buckling over, as the lumps vanished away to nothing. They havent come back. Just some examples. God has shown me how real he is.
Like I said, I wouldnt go “shopping” for a God, and pick a God that suits my requirments, the God I believe in I Fear, he called me.
Thats a few things I can say right now to prove my God is real, a small part.
I still dont go to church or plan ever to.
What about you?
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 02 2010,16:51) P of the K “Being surprised at the fact that the universe is fine tuned
for life is akin to a puddle being surprised at how well it
fits its hole”
– Douglas AdamsStuart
(this next post is off topic, please forgive)stuart,
when I read this I thought of 'ugly' my beta fish that passed away, 'blue' his brother is doing fine after two years. i miss ugly, he was a funny fish when i would go to feed him, he would jump, his final resting place is in my flower bed, his legacy continues.
take care stuart.
Quote Sorry I missed your response PotK. that is fine, kejonn. i appreciate your response.
Quote I do not know that one could come up with the original meaning of god. tends to bring upon another question
Quote
If you look back upon the known history of man, the first gods to be recognized were quite primitive.if you notice though, these gods always had to have another added, or taken away to create a more powerful god or gods,
why the need, what other god was out there, who was it they were competing with?Quote
In fact, if you look at the depiction of YHWH in the first book of the bible, he appears to be a volcano god (fire at night, cloud of smoke by day, found in a mountain).my first readings were 'spirit'
Quote Not much different than the rest of the animal kingdom, are we? please refer to stuart's statement:
OK, fair enough. I will refer only to all other humans in saying that we ARE all animals and we ARE all apes. That is our classification. I guess we are not all princesses of a king.
Quote The reason behind that is very simple: the unknown, filled by what we call a “god of the gaps”. interesting, simple reasoning.
Quote
Primitive people thought all sorts of natural phenomena were related to some unknown power, thus a god. Think thunder, lightning, the wind, stars, the sun, the moon, etc.ah, the dung beetle so to speak.
could you only imagine, seeing lighting for the first time, noticing the sun rise and fall, having the moon at dark, gone by morn. the things that are taken for granted this day, were quite wonderous in ancient times.
Quote As we learn more, reasons to explain things away by attributing them to some god become less and less. Some people are willfully ignorant of many modern discoveries as a form of denial so they can retain their god beliefs. here is me on the other side, seeing modern discoveries and science proving more and more. take for instance, the kolburn bible, stating how egypt lost the hebrews, and began their search for more wisdom, or a more powerful force or god, so they would not be defeated again.
Quote A perusal of the above shows that the various creation myths are not really that similar beyond some god or gods doing it. That's were they start to part. in the beginning there was god.
Quote Because some religions grew out of the factions of an original. or some originals grew out of religion, either way.
Quote I'm really not that big into evolution (I do not think it matters a whole lot, but that's just me), but we have certainly evolved socially and culturally. We definitely have evolved in technology. have we, or is it just our tolerence level has increased.
Quote
Some aspects of our personality remain basically the same, but others have been rejected.the question remains, what has stayed the same and what has been rejected.
Quote For instance, modern religions do not sacrifice animals or other humans, yet the very same god worshiped at one time is now different? This goes to show that it is the human who has evolved to be less barbaric in practice. really, become universal in thinking.
Quote Since the rest of your post seems to be to Stu, I will stop commenting now. Just curious, but why were you addressing Stu in this thread?
you will have to excuse me kejonn, i meant no offense toward you.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 03 2010,01:07) kejonn,
I went through a crisis of faith myself a couple of years ago; I was fired, my business was stolen from me (aided by a Christian brother), the investor sued me to avoid honoring contracts, the lawsuit drained us of all our savings, out of money, I had to give him his way on everything, I couldn't find a job, later that year our house was robbed taking over $25k of goods. At first I tried to maintain a Christ like attitude but after getting sued a second time, once again for something I could prove was false if I could have afforded to take it to court (and by Christian brothers put up to it by the investor) I felt that God had abandoned me, if He even existed, I had truly tried to do everything in a way to please God and it was just so unfair, was this was my reward for the self sacrifices I had made in running the business in a Christ like manner! I began to re-evaluate what I believed and my reasons for believing it.Sorry to hear of your troubles. Understand that such is part of the human condition, and can happen to anyone, regardless of any religious affiliations or beliefs.
Quote I had plenty of reasons to be bitter but knew that didn't hurt anyone but me. However if there wasn't a God of righteousness then life was pointless and those who had ripped me off had gotten away with it and there truly was no justice in this world. I think this is one of the reasons many want to believe in the Christian god: revenge. IOW, they feel that those who seemingly get away with wrongdoings in this life will be punished in the afterlife for what they had done.
But there is something really wrong with the way most Christians think. On one hand they might feel that their god will mete out justice in the afterlife, but what happens when the wrong-doer asks for forgiveness on his deathbed or sometime before death? Or sometime before? Then the Christian mentality is that they will get into heaven, and their life of “crime” goes unpunished, both here and the hereafter.
Quote To make a long story short I did a lot of soul searching, my conclusions were; There must be one all encompassing truth.
Perhaps, but this thread asks theists to show why one's beliefs are “true” while another's is false.
Quote I had to believe that there was more then just this life, you can call it wishful thinking if you like, but I felt there was just no way that everything came from nothing and that life was just some big accident. That is called “god of the gaps”. People cannot definitively and positively explain how we came to be, how the universe was formed, so many will just assume some higher power must have designed and created it all. Question is, which higher power did it?
Quote I then turned my questioning to God, to be honest I relied on my initial search 27 years earlier and stuck for the most part with the God of the bible but everything else was on the table and subject to scrutiny. The end of it was I found the trial to be a blessing, I learned contentment, to count my blessings, I received revelations on truths I had never dreamed possible and I saw much of the conflicts in my faith disappear. So much more of the Bible has gained relevance for me and God has met our every need despite 2 1/2 years with no paychecks. [/quote]
What many people do not realize is that when they say they turn their questioning to some god, they are simply searching within their own psyche for the answers to their own questions. That is why you often get answers that are personalized: they came from you. IOW, you looked deep within yourself to find out how to be content in your situation.
Quote I only wish I could offer you the proof you want. I pray you don't let all the false teachings from me or others trip you up, for me I found that forsaking pet theories (no matter how dearly held they were) and being intent on only the truth was a big part of moving on with life (No I don't expect you to take my word on what I found but the advise is good no matter what direction you choose). One point I do want to make is that I have done my best in choosing what I believe to be truths, I could be wrong but I hope to continue seeking (and accepting) truths and I believe that as long as I have been honest in my efforts, God will be pleased even if I still have errors in my beliefs once I die.
I do agree that we should question everything, as long as we're looking for answers.
My opinion – Wm
In the end, what is “true” for one religious adherent may be “false” for another. You will not agree much with a Hindu on the nature of “God”.Is chocolate cake delicious? To some, but others might not agree. That is very much how religious beliefs are to be viewed, IMHO. You agree with the Christian idea of god likely due to cultural influences. Perhaps the Christian god also matches your own personality and mentality.
Before worldwide TV and Internet, people were only exposed to the religious beliefs of their family and/or community. Now people can investigate all sorts of different beliefs, or can choose to be skeptical of all (though the latter has always been true). Therefore, if someone brought up in a Christian home and community finds the idea of the Christian god to be unreasonable, they can investigate other beliefs. Or they can reject all of them.
I liken this to trying new foods. One does not know if they like Kung Pao chicken until they get a chance to try some. Once tried, they can then make a more honest assessment of their own personal preferences. IMHO, religious beliefs are very personal, and just like tastes in food (or clothing, television shows, etc.), what is good for one person may not be good for another.
Of course, you will not likely agree with me, but that is largely due to warnings made inside of Christianity itself. The same was true with its parent faith, Judaism. Venturing outside of the realm of certain beliefs was “wrong”, not so much because any god disapproved, but that the leaders could not keep people in line when their beliefs did not match their own. So the writers of the various books in the bible defined which beliefs were acceptable. To go outside of these beliefs would define you as a heretic.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 03 2010,07:31) BD, what of these verses? Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (9:29) And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!(9:30)
Doesn't look like those who believe differently are tolerated after all, according to these verses.
“Fight against” does not always mean be violent against, as you can see it talks about them paying a tax, now if they are paying a tax they are hardly being killed. For instance in this thread people are “Fighting” with you but not to injure you but if they can to humble you in regards to what they know as true to them.Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 03 2010,12:03) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 03 2010,07:31) BD, what of these verses? Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (9:29) And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!(9:30)
Doesn't look like those who believe differently are tolerated after all, according to these verses.
“Fight against” does not always mean be violent against, as you can see it talks about them paying a tax, now if they are paying a tax they are hardly being killed. For instance in this thread people are “Fighting” with you but not to injure you but if they can to humble you in regards to what they know as true to them.
I never said it had to be violent. Your claim was that Muslims were to be tolerant of people of other religions. The verses I supplied do not show this tolerance.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 04 2010,05:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 03 2010,12:03) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 03 2010,07:31) BD, what of these verses? Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (9:29) And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!(9:30)
Doesn't look like those who believe differently are tolerated after all, according to these verses.
“Fight against” does not always mean be violent against, as you can see it talks about them paying a tax, now if they are paying a tax they are hardly being killed. For instance in this thread people are “Fighting” with you but not to injure you but if they can to humble you in regards to what they know as true to them.
I never said it had to be violent. Your claim was that Muslims were to be tolerant of people of other religions. The verses I supplied do not show this tolerance.
How is tolerance “agreement”?
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