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TO ALL:
I will be engaging one on one with t8 on the subject of Christ's divinity. He has assured me that if I post here that no one will be allowed to interrupt. Whoever wants to reply may start another thread for that purpose. Please be considerate and do not post your replies on this thread. My opening post is on its way.
Thank You!
thethinker
t8,
I have no rules except that no others be allowed to post on this thread as you guaranteed on page 25 of the Arain Dissenter's thread. I want to see us both be as concise and to the point as possible.
DEBATE BEGINS HERE:
On page 21 of the Arain Dissenter's thread you said to WJ:
Quote Where is he now and what is he now? Is he God now? I wonder if you are able to accept Jesus words on that subject.
Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=200t8,
I am going to deal with your “proof texts” from the Revelation one by one. You replied to WJ by asking the question “What is Jesus now?” Then you offered 1:1 as as your first “proof text” that He is less than God at present because it says that God “gave” Him the Revelation.
Here is the problem: You assume that Jesus continued to receive truth after He was exalted and then conclude that Jesus cannot be God now. But does the text say when the Revelation was given Him? No it does not. It simply says that it was given Him and the when of it must be upon His exaltation and not continuously afterwards.
Here is my support:
Quote 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
Jesus said “all that the Father has IS MINE.” Jesus said this THREE TIMES. So ALL truth was upon His exaltation was equally HIS.At His Father's right hand Jesus may dispense truth according to HIS OWN WILL:
Quote 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
When it comes right down to it your “proof text” does not answer the question “What is Jesus now?” It says that His Father gave Him the Revelation without reference to when. It is a simple assertion of the fact. Jesus possessed all truth upon His exaltation and was not given it continuously afterwards. At His Father's right hand Jesus dispenses truth according to His own will.Let's volley this back and forth before I go on to your next “proof text.” Take as much time as you need within reason.
Cordially,
thinker
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2010,00:09) Hi thethinker. I will get around to replying within the next week hopefully.
Cool!thinker
theThinker,
Jesus clearly refers to his Father as God. This is not Jesus the man on earth saying this, but an exalted Jesus at the right hand of God. A being with hair white like wool, and as white as snow, and his eyes like blazing fire. In other words this is a glorified Jesus, and not Jesus confined to human flesh.
When Jesus walked this earth he said that his Father was his God and our God. He also carries this truth onward while in Heaven and the right hand of the Majesty on high.
This glorified Jesus shares the revelation with John and it was God that shared it with him.
t8 said:
Quote Jesus clearly refers to his Father as God. This is not Jesus the man on earth saying this, but an exalted Jesus at the right hand of God.
t8,The Father also CLEARLY refers to His Son as God (Hebrews 1:8). Do you put as much stock in the Father's testimony as you do in the testimony of Jesus?
t8:
Quote When Jesus walked this earth he said that his Father was his God and our God.
Look what the Father Himself says of the exalted Jesus:But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Hebrews 1:8Again, does the Father's word carry equal autohrity with the word of Jesus? Therefore, God is a plural unity.
t8:
Quote This glorified Jesus shares the revelation with John and it was God that shared it with him.
I disagree that God “shared” the Revelation with Jesus in the sense you suggest. Jesus said that ALL things [truth] were His own:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-15
Jesus clearly said that He HAD many more things to say to the disciples but that they could not bear it at that time. He said that the Spirit of truth would come and disclose those things. He said that those things were HIS OWN. “All that the Father has IS MINE.”
The Father did not “share” truth with Jesus in the sense which you suggest. Jesus possessed and owned all truth with the Father. However, the servant Jesus could not disclose truth on His own initiative.
But the exalted Jesus may disclose truth according to His own will:
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matt. 11:27
Upon His exaltation Jesus was given the authority to disclose truth according to His own will. This is what is meant by the statement “God gave it to Him.”
Sorry I failed to reply sooner. I forgot all about our debate.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,02:55) The Father also CLEARLY refers to His Son as God (Hebrews 1:8). Do you put as much stock in the Father's testimony as you do in the testimony of Jesus?
There is uncertainty as to the precise translation of this verse. Two possibilities exist:- “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”
- “God is thy throne for ever and ever”
The first of these translations is useful for the Trinitarian, so it is assumed by Trinitarians to be the correct one.
The Father is the God of Jesus. according to the very next verse, Hebrews 1:9.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.Also, Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6. In this Psalm, the Hebrew word “elohim” is translated “God”.
6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.Now look at Exodus 7:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.The word “elohim” is used of Moses relationship with Pharaoh. It also is used of the judges of Israel in Psalm 82:6, John 10:34, Exodus 22:9, 28.
This term doesn't make an appointed person of Yahweh, God or a member of a Godhead.
Quote (t8 @ April 10 2010,02:00) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,02:55) The Father also CLEARLY refers to His Son as God (Hebrews 1:8). Do you put as much stock in the Father's testimony as you do in the testimony of Jesus?
There is uncertainty as to the precise translation of this verse. Two possibilities exist:- “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”
- “God is thy throne for ever and ever”
The first of these translations is useful for the Trinitarian, so it is assumed by Trinitarians to be the correct one.
The Father is the God of Jesus. according to the very next verse, Hebrews 1:9.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.Also, Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6. In this Psalm, the Hebrew word “elohim” is translated “God”.
6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.Now look at Exodus 7:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.The word “elohim” is used of Moses relationship with Pharaoh. It also is used of the judges of Israel in Psalm 82:6, John 10:34, Exodus 22:9, 28.
This term doesn't make an appointed person of Yahweh, God or a member of a Godhead.
t8,Show where the Father is the “Lord” or “Master” of Jesus. The terms “God” and “Father” express the covenantal relationship between the Father and the Son.
Jesus said “My Father” and “My God.” He NEVER addressed His Father as His “Lord.” He referred to God as “Lord” in reference to all other men but not to Himself. Likewise, the Father addressed Christ as “Lord” in reference to men and not Himself.
The context in Hebrews 1 will not sustain the reading “God is your throne” for the whole context is about the supremacy of the Son. There is no contextual or grammatical basis for switching the focus to the Father in verse 8.
thinker
When you say “my God” to what are you referring? I know when I say it, I am talking about my supreme authority.
Here are some examples of how I view God and Jesus together and you will see that God is the supreme authority and that even Christ is subject to him.
Romans 15:6
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Colossians 1:3
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,God and Father is titles of headship. It shows that God the Father is the source, the originator, and that there is no one higher than him.
t8 said:
Quote When you say “my God” to what are you referring? I know when I say it, I am talking about my supreme authority.
Then Thomas called Christ his “supreme authority” when he addressed Jesus as “My God.”t8:
Quote Here are some examples of how I view God and Jesus together and you will see that God is the supreme authority and that even Christ is subject to him.
None of the scriptures you provided suggest that Christ was under God after His exaltation. In fact, Paul said that the Son “WILL BE” subject to the Father. The future tense “will be” makes no sense if Christ had been subject to the Father when Paul wrote those words.t8:
Quote God and Father is titles of headship.
Headship is not necessarily implied in the name “God” and neither in the name “Father.” Both may express a covenantal relationship. The name “father” certainly does not imply headship to a fully investitured son.God revealed Himself after the model of the Hebrew family. So God and Christ were father and son after the pattern of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham was Isaac's head at the beginning. Abraham was Isaac's “god and father and lord.” But once Isaac became a fully investitured son there was no inequality. Yet Abraham was still Isaac's “god and father” though no longer his “lord.”
The “Lord” aspect is missing in all references to Christ's relationship to God. A father is not “Lord” over a fully investitured son. I request that you produce a scripture which says that Christ's Father is His Sovereign Lord.
thinker
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ April 17 2010,06:33) I request that you produce a scripture which says that Christ's Father is His Sovereign Lord. thinker
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,09:51) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ April 17 2010,06:33) I request that you produce a scripture which says that Christ's Father is His Sovereign Lord. thinker
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Jesus called His Father His God but not His Lord. He NEVER addressed His Father as “My Lord” or ever even referred to Him as “MY Lord.” You do not find this significant?In a prayer He addressed His Father as “Lord” acknowledging His Father's relation to creation. But the Father also called His Son “Lord” in His relation to creation (Heb. 1:10). But Jesus NEVER said to His Father “MY Lord.”
KJ
What matters is that the Father is the one true God and that Jesus is the Lord. You see, God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. And no one made the Father God. God is the originator. He is the source. He is not an image of anyone. He is the Most High and Father of all (that is good).
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.The fact that the Father is the God of Jesus and is also our God is the truth.
Romans 15:6
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.As for the Lord question. There is LORD, Lord, and lord. And YHWH is not mentioned in the New Testament for whatever reason. I think that removing it from the OT, meant that translators then substituted YHWH for Lord in the New Testament and people get confused over LORD, Lord, and lord as they tend to see it as the same thing when it is not.
So a quoted verse from the OT that mentions LORD (YHWH) and then appears in the NT as LORD, is not to be confused as Lord. Perhaps we need to read the context too to work out if it is really about YHWH, or the Lord Jesus Christ.
t8 said:
Quote What matters is that the Father is the one true God and that Jesus is the Lord. You see, God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. And no one made the Father God. God is the originator. He is the source. He is not an image of anyone. He is the Most High and Father of all (that is good).
Jesus did not exclude Himself when He addressed His Father as the one true God. If He had excluded Himself, then why did John later call Jesus the “True God and Eternal life?1 John 5:20:
Quote 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He [the Son] is the true God and eternal life.
In verses 13-15 the apostle indicates the purpose for writing this section which is this; “that you may BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God.” Then He goes on to explain that believing in the Son of God involves confidence toward Him and petitioning Him in prayer:Quote 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
If Christ was not God then the apostle was calling them to be idolaters by BELIEVING in the name of the Son of God and by putting their CONFIDENCE in Him and by PETITIONING Him in their prayers. The apostle wanted them to know that their eternal life was IN the Son of God. He wanted them to continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. This faith in the Son of God was to be played out by having confidence toward Him and petitioning Him in prayer. Then it says that He would grant their petitions if the things they asked for were according to HIS WILL!t8:
Quote Romans 15:6
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
David was Solomon's god and father. Did that make Solomon less man than man like his father? You have still failed to show that Christ's Father is also His Lord.t8:
Quote As for the Lord question. There is LORD, Lord, and lord. And YHWH is not mentioned in the New Testament for whatever reason. I think that removing it from the OT, meant that translators then substituted YHWH for Lord in the New Testament and people get confused over LORD, Lord, and lord as they tend to see it as the same thing when it is not. So a quoted verse from the OT that mentions LORD (YHWH) and then appears in the NT as LORD, is not to be confused as Lord. Perhaps we need to read the context too to work out if it is really about YHWH, or the Lord Jesus Christ.
Unintelligible and proof that you cannot show that Christ's Father is also His Lord. Is your father your lord?The Father and the Son have been revealed in the scriptures as a father and a son according to the Hebrew concept. They understood that the fully investitured son was not a servant but the only Lord.
Quote 1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Two points are very clear:1. Christ is counted worthy of the glory that belongs to the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is counted worthy of the glory that belongs to God
2. Christ is Son over His own house in contradistinction to Moses who was but a servant. Therefore, the Son is not a servant. Again, to the Hebrew mind the fully investitured son was not a servant. He was the “only Lord.”
Kangaroo Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 20 2010,04:43) Jesus did not exclude Himself when He addressed His Father as the one true God. If He had excluded Himself, then why did John later call Jesus the “True God and Eternal life?
Look again.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.See that. Only true God AND Jesus.
That is two. One is the only true God and the other one in this verse is Jesus.
Pretty basic stuff. But it needs explaining to those who cannot accept basic stuff because they have embraced the confusion of the Trinity.
With the other verse you quote. Try moving the comma around and you can see that the verse can say something completely different. There is no comma in the original text, so to understand it, it is obviously the meaning that agrees with the rest of scripture as opposed to agreeing with a 3rd century doctrine.
1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.Look at the verse closely.
The son of God came to give us understanding of who?
His Father (God).
And we are in God and his son Jesus Christ.
Can you see that.
Remember that Jesus didn't come in his own name. It was God that sent him. He didn't send himself.
Quote (t8 @ June 20 2010,14:40) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 20 2010,04:43) Jesus did not exclude Himself when He addressed His Father as the one true God. If He had excluded Himself, then why did John later call Jesus the “True God and Eternal life?
Look again.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.See that. Only true God AND Jesus.
That is two. One is the only true God and the other one in this verse is Jesus.
Pretty basic stuff. But it needs explaining to those who cannot accept basic stuff because they have embraced the confusion of the Trinity.
With the other verse you quote. Try moving the comma around and you can see that the verse can say something completely different. There is no comma in the original text, so to understand it, it is obviously the meaning that agrees with the rest of scripture as opposed to agreeing with a 3rd century doctrine.
Sorry t8 but I don't see it. Jesus is called “Lord” in many passages where the Father is not and you guys do not infer such statements to mean that the Father is not Lord.In Jude 4 Jesus is called our “only Master and Lord.” If you say that this does not exclude the Father, then I can say, “look again” just as you have done to me regarding Johnn 17:5.
You commit a logical fallacy called “The Reductive fallacy.”
What is “The Reductive Fallacy?”
This occurs when humans suppose that a description on one level excludes or invalidates a description on another level.
Quote You commit the reductive fallacy when you stop with a one level description when there are many levels to be described. You are mistaken when you “reduce” a complex entity to only one of its many aspects. Don't You Believe It! Poking holes in faulty logic, A. J. Hoover, p. 25-26 The apostle John said that Jesus is the “true God” ( 1 Jn 5:20).
the Roo
Quote (t8 @ June 20 2010,14:50) 1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.Look at the verse closely.
The son of God came to give us understanding of who?
His Father (God).
And we are in God and his son Jesus Christ.
Can you see that.
Remember that Jesus didn't come in his own name. It was God that sent him. He didn't send himself.
You comment on verse 20 out of context even after I gave you the context. Do you want me to ignore verses 13-15 in favor of the placement of a comma in verse 20?
In verses 13-15 John clearly stated his purpose for writing this section. He wrote this section that they might believe in the name of the Son of God and that they might have eternal life in Him. Then he described how faith in the Son of God is played out. Faith in the Son of God is played out by having confidence toward Him and by petitioning Him in prayer. If Jesus was not God, then this was clearly a call to idolatry and the apostle himself was an idolater.
t8:
Quote The son of God came to give us understanding of who? His Father (God).
The is no personal pronoun “him” in the text. So your argument is inconclusive at best. It is assumed that the definite article functions as the personal pronoun “him.” But the article may just as accurately read as it is written: “That we may know that which is true, and that we are in that which is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God AND eternal life.”John said that we know that which is true; we are also in that which is true, [namely], in His Son Jesus Christ. Then he says, “He is the true God and eternal life.”
The definite article is treated as it is written in 1:1 which says, “That which was from the beginning….” Then it goes on to describe “the Word of Life.” There is no doubt here that the article translated “that which“ refers to Jesus.
Back to 5:20: The “true God” is also identified as the “eternal life.” It says, “He is the true God AND eternal life.” In 1:2 Jesus is expressly called the “eternal life.” Therefore, He is the “true God and eternal life” in 5:20.
Certainly you can do better than to argue from the placement of a comma in a sentence.
the Roo
Sorry it is late and I have to push out some zzzs.
But I will copy a post I made elsewhere, as it might answer your questions.
If not, I will read your posts tomorrow hopefully and reply.If we read 1 John 5:17 as saying that the true God is Jesus Christ, then John 17:3 would go like this:
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true (Jesus Christ). And we are in him (Jesus Christ) who is true–even in his Son Jesus Christ. He (Jesus Christ) is the true God and eternal life.
Words in brackets added by me.
So if you want the last verse to say, Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. Then you also have to say “we are in Jesus Christ who is true–even in his Son Jesus Christ.
So now if Jesus Christ is the one who is true (the true God) then Jesus Christ has a son called Jesus Christ. I think we can at least both agree that this is not the case.
The one who is true is God and his son is Jesus Christ.
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