Justice: the biblical version

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,01:20)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,10:12)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 17 2010,14:36)

Ed J and Marty,

Until you actually address the following question, I don't think that we can have a coherent discussion:

If my punishment for sin is supposed to be death with no resurrection how can my substitute's punishment for my sin be death with a side of resurrection?

I will gladly resume our discussion when you do address that question.

Hint: Quoting random verses, or even paraphrasing them, does not equate to answering the question. An actual answer would look something along the lines of:

Jesus's resurrection does not cancel his “payment” for my sin because …. .

Hi WhatIsTrue:

I have already answered this question. It is about God's desire to have mercy on whosoever chooses to be reconciled to Him.

But as born again Christians, we are to follow in the footsteps of our Lord, and we suffer the same persecutions and insults that he did, and in this and by his blood we also learn to overcome sin. We could not become like Jesus if we did not have to put his Word into practice.

Stephen was stoned to death because he was serving the Lord, the Apostle Paul was beheaded, the Apostle Peter was crucified upside down, and so you see, we also may have do endure a few things as servants of the Most High God.

Man has the power to kill the body but he cannot kill my faith nor my soul.

I hope this answer satisfies you.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Forgive me if I missed this point previously, but are you saying that Jesus died, not as a substitute nor as a sacrifice, but simply as an example? In other words, his shed blood has nothing to do with salvation; it is just an example of what might happen to his followers?

That would certainly invalidate the question that I asked, but it would also contradict mainstream christianity and likely much of the new testament.

Hi WhatIsTrue:

Did I say that his blood or sacrifice of his life had nothing to do with salvation? or did you fail to read what I said in order to keep distorting the truth of God's purpose for the salvation of those who believe his testimony regarding His Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

All of humanity has been deceived by the devil and have been dead or separated from God because of the transgression of His Eternal Law. This is the first death or spiritual separation from God. In this state, people are in darkness about the reality of God or they may even believe that there is a higher power, but they do not have a personal relationship with Him, and so every one in this state does not know that God is a reality.

The gospel which is the good news that God has given His Only Begotten Son to be the propitiation for the sin of all of humanity that is in this first death. God is calling those who will hear and believe the gospel into a personal relationship with Him on the basis of any good works that they have done, but on the basis of the person's faith in what He has done for them in the person of Jesus Christ, and their willingness to repent.

God desires to have mercy on all who are in this first state of separation from him, and that is the answer to your question.

Salvation in this way is a “gift from God”. It is not of works lest any man should boast that it was because of his goodness.

Quote

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now if you want justice instead of mercy then God is willing to let you have your way in the second death which eternal separation from him. Every one who died in their sins will be judged according to their works, and be punished accordingly.

Any questions?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 17, 2010 at 7:26 pm#212557

Participant

Marty wrote:

Quote

God desires to have mercy on all who are in this first state of separation from him, and that is the answer to your question.

Then, why did Jesus need to die at all? If it's simply about mercy then why isn't an individual's repentance enough?

(Before you answer, see my next post to Ed J.)

August 17, 2010 at 7:29 pm#212558

Participant

Ed J wrote:

Quote

Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Jesus paying 'your' sin debt removes the Judgment after you die,
but “only” if 'you' repent in this life and turn away from further sin!

How was Jesus judged? What was his punishment for my sins?

August 17, 2010 at 7:39 pm#212559

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,06:26)

Marty wrote:

Quote

God desires to have mercy on all who are in this first state of separation from him, and that is the answer to your question.

Then, why did Jesus need to die at all? If it's simply about mercy then why isn't an individual's repentance enough?

(Before you answer, see my next post to Ed J.)

Because in obeying God even unto death on the cross Jesus defeated he who had the power to cause men to sin and be eternally separated from God, that is the devil.

And as born again Christians, we will also overcome sin as we learn to apply the commandments that have come from God through him, but he obeyed God without sin, and we will fall short of perfect obedience even as we strive to obey our God, but because he lives ever to make intercession for us when we fail, it is by the blood that he shed that our sins are washed away when we repent, and this keeps us in the state of holiness with our God.

Quote

Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 17, 2010 at 7:58 pm#212560

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 17 2010,09:35)

Even if Jesus was killed or crucified Jesus said that that still would not seperate him or any believer from God nor could he ever be considered dead:

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mark 12:26-28

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Luke 20:37-39

Hi BD:

To whom was Jesus referring when he made the comment “He is not the God of the dead but of the living”?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 17, 2010 at 8:07 pm#212561

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,06:11)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,01:20)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,10:12)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 17 2010,14:36)

Ed J and Marty,

Until you actually address the following question, I don't think that we can have a coherent discussion:

If my punishment for sin is supposed to be death with no resurrection how can my substitute's punishment for my sin be death with a side of resurrection?

I will gladly resume our discussion when you do address that question.

Hint: Quoting random verses, or even paraphrasing them, does not equate to answering the question. An actual answer would look something along the lines of:

Jesus's resurrection does not cancel his “payment” for my sin because …. .

Hi WhatIsTrue:

I have already answered this question. It is about God's desire to have mercy on whosoever chooses to be reconciled to Him.

Man has the power to kill the body but he cannot kill my faith nor my soul.

I hope this answer satisfies you.

Love in Christ,
Marty

That would certainly invalidate the question that I asked, but it would also contradict mainstream christianity and likely much of the new testament.

Hi WhatIsTrue:

God desires to have mercy on all who are in this first state of separation from him, and that is the answer to your question.

Salvation in this way is a “gift from God”. It is not of works lest any man should boast that it was because of his goodness.

Quote

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Any questions?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Do you not realize people all over the world do have a “relationship” with God and very much feel HIS presence in their life and they are not Christians? In-fact their were many people long before Christ such as Abraham who God called HIS friend so obviously he could not have been spiritually dead or seperated from God as you have said and there were many, many more.

I love Jesus so that is not my point but I also love Elijah who raised others from the dead, did many miracles and even gave the Holy Spirit to Elisha and he was Taken up into Heaven ALIVE having not died at all.

August 17, 2010 at 8:09 pm#212562

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,06:58)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 17 2010,09:35)

Even if Jesus was killed or crucified Jesus said that that still would not seperate him or any believer from God nor could he ever be considered dead:

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mark 12:26-28

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Luke 20:37-39

Hi BD:

To whom was Jesus referring when he made the comment “He is not the God of the dead but of the living”?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Luke 20:37-39 (New International Version)
37But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'[a] 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

39Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

August 17, 2010 at 8:11 pm#212563

Participant

Hi BD:

In the scriptures that you posted which I will post below, Jesus was having a discussion with the Saducees who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, and he said:

Quote

Luke 20:34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all who obeyed God in the OT are a part of the body of Christ and will be raised from the dead in the rapture when Jesus comes for the church.

Those who did not obey in the OT are dead, and those who have not been reconciled to Him in the NT era are also dead. God is not their God. “He is indeed the God of the living”.

Quote

John 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 17, 2010 at 8:16 pm#212564

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,06:39)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,06:26)

Marty wrote:

Quote

God desires to have mercy on all who are in this first state of separation from him, and that is the answer to your question.

Then, why did Jesus need to die at all? If it's simply about mercy then why isn't an individual's repentance enough?

(Before you answer, see my next post to Ed J.)

Because in obeying God even unto death on the cross Jesus defeated he who had the power to cause men to sin and be eternally separated from God, that is the devil.

Quote

Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Love in Christ,
Marty

What does Jesus defeating the devil have to do with you defeating the devil?

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1 Peter 5:7-9

You have to defeat the devil yourself, you have to overcome the world yourself no burden is being beared for you

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:10-12

Jesus gave you the tools and the tools are the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven it is about knowing the One who sent Jesus and knowing the True God is Eternal Life

The True God is not Christian, Muslim or any other form of worshiping HIM. GOD is GOD.

August 17, 2010 at 8:18 pm#212566

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,07:11)

Hi BD:

In the scriptures that you posted which I will post below, Jesus was having a discussion with the Saducees who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, and he said:

Quote

Luke 20:34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all who obeyed God in the OT are a part of the body of Christ and will be raised from the dead in the rapture when Jesus comes for the church.

Those who did not obey in the OT are dead, and those who have not been reconciled to Him in the NT era are also dead. God is not their God. “He is indeed the God of the living”.

Quote

John 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Then why do you believe Jesus died for your sins?

August 17, 2010 at 8:25 pm#212567

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 18 2010,07:18)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2010,07:11)

Hi BD:

In the scriptures that you posted which I will post below, Jesus was having a discussion with the Saducees who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, and he said:

Quote

Luke 20:34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all who obeyed God in the OT are a part of the body of Christ and will be raised from the dead in the rapture when Jesus comes for the church.

Those who did not obey in the OT are dead, and those who have not been reconciled to Him in the NT era are also dead. God is not their God. “He is indeed the God of the living”.

Quote

John 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Then why do you believe Jesus died for your sins?

Hi BD:

Go back and read all of my posts in this discussion with you and WhatIsTrue, and hopefully, you will understand.

Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all who have obeyed God in the OT and for all that come to God through him in the NT.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 17, 2010 at 8:26 pm#212568

Participant

Marty,

As I warned earlier, I am afraid that we are now having a completely incoherent discussion. I am asking very specific questions, and you are giving me generic christian doctrine in response. For example, you write:

Quote

Because in obeying God even unto death on the cross Jesus defeated he who had the power to cause men to sin and be eternally separated from God, that is the devil.

What does that even mean? What does that have to do with “my sins”? How does that even relate to “the judgment” that I am supposed to face because of “my sins”?

I can't possibly be any clearer in my questions. (I have asked the same thing a half dozen different ways!) I will have to give you the last word on this one (if you choose to respond), because I don't wish to go around this circle again. But, for those who are following along, I contend that the following assertion of mine remains unaddressed.

Jesus died …
A) …as a substitute for my sins.
B) …to fulfill the sacrificial laws.
C) …for dramatic, though pointless, effect.

Feel free to add your own clear and concise option, but please clearly rule out the choices above first.

By the way, if you choose “A”, please specify what punishment Jesus received and what punishment I will receive if I am to be punished for my own sins. If you choose “B”, please show me in “the Law” where one perfect sacrifice eliminates the need for future sacrifices.

August 17, 2010 at 8:52 pm#212569

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,06:29)

Ed J wrote:

Quote

Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Jesus paying 'your' sin debt removes the Judgment after you die,
but “only” if 'you' repent in this life and turn away from further sin!

How was Jesus judged? What was his punishment for my sins?

Hi WIT,

Crucifixion.

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 17, 2010 at 9:25 pm#212571

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,07:26)

Marty,

Quote

Because in obeying God even unto death on the cross Jesus defeated he who had the power to cause men to sin and be eternally separated from God, that is the devil.

What does that even mean? What does that have to do with “my sins”? How does that even relate to “the judgment” that I am supposed to face because of “my sins”?

Jesus died …
A) …as a substitute for my sins.
B) …to fulfill the sacrificial laws.
C) …for dramatic, though pointless, effect.

Feel free to add your own clear and concise option, but please clearly rule out the choices above first.

Hi WhatIsTrue:

I have already explained all of this to you. You want to put me in a box so that you can continue to distort the truth.

The only thing that I can do is to pray that God would open your heart to receive the understanding for your questions from what I have written.

Love in Christ,
Marty

August 17, 2010 at 10:14 pm#212584

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 18 2010,02:52)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,06:29)

Ed J wrote:

Quote

Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Jesus paying 'your' sin debt removes the Judgment after you die,
but “only” if 'you' repent in this life and turn away from further sin!

How was Jesus judged? What was his punishment for my sins?

Hi WIT,

Crucifixion.

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

So I will be crucified if I don't repent? The “wages of sin” is crucifixion?

August 17, 2010 at 10:46 pm#212601

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,09:14)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 18 2010,02:52)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,06:29)

Ed J wrote:

Quote

Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Jesus paying 'your' sin debt removes the Judgment after you die,
but “only” if 'you' repent in this life and turn away from further sin!

How was Jesus judged? What was his punishment for my sins?

Hi WIT,

Crucifixion.

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

So I will be crucified if I don't repent? The “wages of sin” is crucifixion?

Hi WIT,

No, if 'you' don't repent 'you' will have to face the second death.

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

August 18, 2010 at 3:21 am#212726

Participant

Ed J,

Let's recap. According to you:

His punishment = crucifixion (i.e. “first death” only)
My punishment = “first death” and “second death”

Now let's review the relevant part of the Sinbad & Goodman story:

Let's say that it is well known in this fictitious little town that Goodman is from the realm of the undead, (i.e. he can not really be killed). So, the real choice for the town is to kill Sinbad permanently, or to kill Goodman temporarily, allowing both Sinbad and Goodman to live out their natural (and unnatural) lives. In other words, killing Goodman doesn't really punish anyone, because it doesn't really affect him in the same way at all.

Sure looks like I got that part right.

August 18, 2010 at 3:45 am#212731

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 18 2010,14:21)

Ed J,

Let's recap. According to you:

His punishment = crucifixion (i.e. “first death” only)
My punishment = “first death” and “second death”

Now let's review the relevant part of the Sinbad & Goodman story:

Sure looks like I got that part right.

And so, mercy or justice the choice is yours.

August 18, 2010 at 4:13 am#212735