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Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2010,10:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 14 2010,06:52) Ed J, Again, your random verses don't address the “how” or the “why”. They are all fluff and no meat.
Quote So you don't believe Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin? If Jesus was my substitute, why was he resurrected?
Hi WIT,Rom.4:25 Who was delivered for our offences,
and was raised again for our [righteousification].Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I don't know if you are playing dumb or missing the point, but that verse does not answer the question that I asked. You specifically said:…Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin… .
If my punishment was supposed to be “death with no resurrection” how can my substitutes punishment be “death with a side of resurrection”. Sounds like my bill wasn't fully paid (to use your analogy).
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:11) Marty and Shimmer, I appreciate the Sunday school lesson, but you both completely failed to address the scenario that I laid out in my opening post. I contend that the metaphor that I have crafted accurately represents the Christian gospel. Do you disagree with it? If so, what part of it is incorrect?
Hi WhatIsTrue:Your scenario does not acurately protray the Christian gospel in that God desires to have mercy where he can and mercy triumphs over justice.
The good guy in your scenario is definetly Jesus but the bad guy is the devil who has deceived the whole world into obeying him in transgressing God's Eternal Law while in unbelief.
It is about repentance when an individual believes the truth about God and about His testimony regarding His Son and about their deception.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:16) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2010,10:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 14 2010,06:52) Ed J, Again, your random verses don't address the “how” or the “why”. They are all fluff and no meat.
Quote So you don't believe Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin? If Jesus was my substitute, why was he resurrected?
Hi WIT,Rom.4:25 Who was delivered for our offences,
and was raised again for our [righteousification].Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I don't know if you are playing dumb or missing the point, but that verse does not answer the question that I asked. You specifically said:…Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin… .
If my punishment was supposed to be “death with no resurrection” how can my substitutes punishment be “death with a side of resurrection”. Sounds like my bill wasn't fully paid (to use your analogy).
Hi WIT,You did not quote “the entire Quote”?
Did you not understand what I said?Because Jesus did pay your sin debt,
you will be therefore resurrected! (Rev.20:6)Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,08:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:11) Marty and Shimmer, I appreciate the Sunday school lesson, but you both completely failed to address the scenario that I laid out in my opening post. I contend that the metaphor that I have crafted accurately represents the Christian gospel. Do you disagree with it? If so, what part of it is incorrect?
Hi WhatIsTrue:Your scenario does not acurately protray the Christian gospel in that God desires to have mercy where he can and mercy triumphs over justice.
The good guy in your scenario is definetly Jesus but the bad guy is the devil who has deceived the whole world into obeying him in transgressing God's Eternal Law while in unbelief.
It is about repentance when an individual believes the truth about God and about His testimony regarding His Son and about their deception.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If mercy triumphs then why is it hard to believe that even Jesus received mercy and was saved from the cross itself?Isn't the merciful due mercy?
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2010,08:59) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:16) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2010,10:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 14 2010,06:52) Ed J, Again, your random verses don't address the “how” or the “why”. They are all fluff and no meat.
Quote So you don't believe Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin? If Jesus was my substitute, why was he resurrected?
Hi WIT,Rom.4:25 Who was delivered for our offences,
and was raised again for our [righteousification].Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I don't know if you are playing dumb or missing the point, but that verse does not answer the question that I asked. You specifically said:…Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin… .
If my punishment was supposed to be “death with no resurrection” how can my substitutes punishment be “death with a side of resurrection”. Sounds like my bill wasn't fully paid (to use your analogy).
Hi WIT,You did not quote “the entire Quote”?
Did you not understand what I said?Because Jesus did pay your sin debt,
you will be therefore resurrected! (Rev.20:6)Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You are trying to evade his point ED he is asking you how is the debt paid if the full amount(Hell or no resurrection) has not been satisfied?You directly tell others that the price for not accepting Jesus in the way you believe that the person will go to hell or some sort of permanent punishment you also say that we are all due this permanent punishment punishment but Jesus took our place and was punished instead of us “WIT” is saying if he wasn't permanently punished how could the debt be paid? How was he a substitute for our punishment?
The cross itself couldn't have been the punishment because such a physical death all will still endure so what other punishment did he endure that we will be spared from according to your beliefs
Ed J,
I am growing impatient with you. Either you are not bright enough to grasp the point I am making, or you are purposely evading it (as bodhitharta has suggested.) Either way, I am only going to dance this jig with you one more time if you insist on being obtuse.
Quote Because Jesus did pay your sin debt,
you will be therefore resurrected!Let me be as clear as possible: I contend that Jesus did not pay the debt for my sin because he did not suffer the same fate that you say I will suffer, (i.e. death with no resurrection). Can you not see that?
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,03:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:11) Marty and Shimmer, I appreciate the Sunday school lesson, but you both completely failed to address the scenario that I laid out in my opening post. I contend that the metaphor that I have crafted accurately represents the Christian gospel. Do you disagree with it? If so, what part of it is incorrect?
Hi WhatIsTrue:Your scenario does not acurately protray the Christian gospel in that God desires to have mercy where he can and mercy triumphs over justice.
The good guy in your scenario is definetly Jesus but the bad guy is the devil who has deceived the whole world into obeying him in transgressing God's Eternal Law while in unbelief.
It is about repentance when an individual believes the truth about God and about His testimony regarding His Son and about their deception.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Then why was it necessary for Jesus to die at all? What was the specific purpose?To avoid another plate full of platitudes, I will give you a list of possibilities to choose from:
Jesus died …
A) …as a substitute for sinners.
B) …to fulfill the sacrificial laws.
C) …for dramatic, though pointless, effect.Feel free to add your own clear and concise option, but I think I've covered it.
By the way, if you choose “A”, see my last few posts to Ed J. If you choose “B”, please show me in “the Law” where one perfect sacrifice eliminates the need for future sacrifices. And, if you choose “C”, let me be the first to welcome you back to reality.
WhatIsTrue,
Do you believe that Jesus did get crucified or that he didn't get crucified?
I believe he was intended to be murdered and God saved him from the plot as it is written in the Quran
to me it simply makes more sense and I did not grow up Muslim or studying the Quran it's just that
when I read it, it simply confirmed my own feeling that I already hadQuote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 16 2010,11:26) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,08:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:11) Marty and Shimmer, I appreciate the Sunday school lesson, but you both completely failed to address the scenario that I laid out in my opening post. I contend that the metaphor that I have crafted accurately represents the Christian gospel. Do you disagree with it? If so, what part of it is incorrect?
Hi WhatIsTrue:Your scenario does not acurately protray the Christian gospel in that God desires to have mercy where he can and mercy triumphs over justice.
The good guy in your scenario is definetly Jesus but the bad guy is the devil who has deceived the whole world into obeying him in transgressing God's Eternal Law while in unbelief.
It is about repentance when an individual believes the truth about God and about His testimony regarding His Son and about their deception.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If mercy triumphs then why is it hard to believe that even Jesus received mercy and was saved from the cross itself?Isn't the merciful due mercy?
Hi BD:Why is it so difficult to make you see that this is the only way that he could overcome sin. He had to obey God in spite of what any man could do to him. He did not yield to the devil and his temptations to make him sin, and in this way he defeated the devil.
It is because of his obedience that he was raised again from the dead. Without this, there is no resurrection from the dead. The wages of sin is death or spiritual separation from God.
All who are a part of the body of Christ OT and NT will receive a spiritual body at his coming for the church, and will have eternal life because of his sacrifice.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 17 2010,01:17) Ed J, I am growing impatient with you. Either you are not bright enough to grasp the point I am making, or you are purposely evading it (as bodhitharta has suggested.) Either way, I am only going to dance this jig with you one more time if you insist on being obtuse.
Quote Because Jesus did pay your sin debt,
you will be therefore resurrected!Let me be as clear as possible: I contend that Jesus did not pay the debt for my sin because he did not suffer the same fate that you say I will suffer, (i.e. death with no resurrection). Can you not see that?
Hi WIT,Because Jesus DID pay the sin debt of all, all will be resurrected.
John 3:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive;
and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
lest at any time they should be converted,
and their sins should be forgiven them.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 17 2010,09:15) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 17 2010,01:17) Ed J, I am growing impatient with you. Either you are not bright enough to grasp the point I am making, or you are purposely evading it (as bodhitharta has suggested.) Either way, I am only going to dance this jig with you one more time if you insist on being obtuse.
Quote Because Jesus did pay your sin debt,
you will be therefore resurrected!Let me be as clear as possible: I contend that Jesus did not pay the debt for my sin because he did not suffer the same fate that you say I will suffer, (i.e. death with no resurrection). Can you not see that?
Hi WIT,Because Jesus DID pay the sin debt of all, all will be resurrected.
John 3:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive;
and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
lest at any time they should be converted,
and their sins should be forgiven them.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
How did Jesus pay the sin debt for all people? What happened to him that reflects what would have happened to us.Quote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,09:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 16 2010,11:26) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,08:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:11) Marty and Shimmer, I appreciate the Sunday school lesson, but you both completely failed to address the scenario that I laid out in my opening post. I contend that the metaphor that I have crafted accurately represents the Christian gospel. Do you disagree with it? If so, what part of it is incorrect?
Hi WhatIsTrue:Your scenario does not acurately protray the Christian gospel in that God desires to have mercy where he can and mercy triumphs over justice.
The good guy in your scenario is definetly Jesus but the bad guy is the devil who has deceived the whole world into obeying him in transgressing God's Eternal Law while in unbelief.
It is about repentance when an individual believes the truth about God and about His testimony regarding His Son and about their deception.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If mercy triumphs then why is it hard to believe that even Jesus received mercy and was saved from the cross itself?Isn't the merciful due mercy?
Hi BD:Why is it so difficult to make you see that this is the only way that he could overcome sin. He had to obey God in spite of what any man could do to him. He did not yield to the devil and his temptations to make him sin, and in this way he defeated the devil.
It is because of his obedience that he was raised again from the dead. Without this, there is no resurrection from the dead. The wages of sin is death or spiritual separation from God.
All who are a part of the body of Christ OT and NT will receive a spiritual body at his coming for the church, and will have eternal life because of his sacrifice.
Love in Christ,
Marty
You just said yourself that Jesus overcame sin through obedience and I agree.Now if you contend that Jesus paid our wages of sin how is he seperated from God or dead?
Even if Jesus was killed or crucified Jesus said that that still would not seperate him or any believer from God nor could he ever be considered dead:
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Mark 12:26-28For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Luke 20:37-39Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 17 2010,09:31) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,09:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 16 2010,11:26) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,08:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:11) Marty and Shimmer, I appreciate the Sunday school lesson, but you both completely failed to address the scenario that I laid out in my opening post. I contend that the metaphor that I have crafted accurately represents the Christian gospel. Do you disagree with it? If so, what part of it is incorrect?
Hi WhatIsTrue:Your scenario does not acurately protray the Christian gospel in that God desires to have mercy where he can and mercy triumphs over justice.
The good guy in your scenario is definetly Jesus but the bad guy is the devil who has deceived the whole world into obeying him in transgressing God's Eternal Law while in unbelief.
It is about repentance when an individual believes the truth about God and about His testimony regarding His Son and about their deception.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If mercy triumphs then why is it hard to believe that even Jesus received mercy and was saved from the cross itself?Isn't the merciful due mercy?
Hi BD:Why is it so difficult to make you see that this is the only way that he could overcome sin. He had to obey God in spite of what any man could do to him. He did not yield to the devil and his temptations to make him sin, and in this way he defeated the devil.
It is because of his obedience that he was raised again from the dead. Without this, there is no resurrection from the dead. The wages of sin is death or spiritual separation from God.
All who are a part of the body of Christ OT and NT will receive a spiritual body at his coming for the church, and will have eternal life because of his sacrifice.
Love in Christ,
Marty
You just said yourself that Jesus overcame sin through obedience and I agree.Now if you contend that Jesus paid our wages of sin how is he seperated from God or dead?
Hi BD:Cursed is every man who hangeth on a tree. When a man was crucified this was a sign that he was a condemned man. Jesus had been accused of Blamsphemy against God and so they crucified him.
But God declared him not guilty because he obeyed Him even unto death on the cross, and so he raised him from the dead, and he is not dead. He is at the right hand of God my Father as head of the church, the body of Christ.
And I have God's witness to this truth when Jesus baptized me with the Holy Ghost. My sins have been washed away by the precious blood of the lamb of God, and your sins can also be washed away through repentance toward God and belief in what God has done for us in the person of Jesus Christ, God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ.
God is calling you into a personal relationship with Him through the gospel, but it is a personal decision that you have to want to make. It is your choice.
There is only one way to be reconciled to God.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi WhatIsTrue and BD:
The following scripture will support what I have stated:
Quote Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 16 2010,20:44) WhatIsTrue, Do you believe that Jesus did get crucified or that he didn't get crucified?
I believe he was intended to be murdered and God saved him from the plot as it is written in the Quran
to me it simply makes more sense and I did not grow up Muslim or studying the Quran it's just that
when I read it, it simply confirmed my own feeling that I already had
I don't think that we can know very much about Jesus given that the gospels are likely more legend than they are fact.Ed J and Marty,
Until you actually address the following question, I don't think that we can have a coherent discussion:
If my punishment for sin is supposed to be death with no resurrection how can my substitute's punishment for my sin be death with a side of resurrection?
I will gladly resume our discussion when you do address that question.
Hint: Quoting random verses, or even paraphrasing them, does not equate to answering the question. An actual answer would look something along the lines of:
Jesus's resurrection does not cancel his “payment” for my sin because …. .
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 17 2010,14:36) Ed J and Marty, Until you actually address the following question, I don't think that we can have a coherent discussion:
If my punishment for sin is supposed to be death with no resurrection how can my substitute's punishment for my sin be death with a side of resurrection?
I will gladly resume our discussion when you do address that question.
Hint: Quoting random verses, or even paraphrasing them, does not equate to answering the question. An actual answer would look something along the lines of:
Jesus's resurrection does not cancel his “payment” for my sin because …. .
Hi WhatIsTrue:I have already answered this question. It is about God's desire to have mercy on whosoever chooses to be reconciled to Him.
But as born again Christians, we are to follow in the footsteps of our Lord, and we suffer the same persecutions and insults that he did, and in this and by his blood we also learn to overcome sin. We could not become like Jesus if we did not have to put his Word into practice.
Stephen was stoned to death because he was serving the Lord, the Apostle Paul was beheaded, the Apostle Peter was crucified upside down, and so you see, we also may have do endure a few things as servants of the Most High God.
Man has the power to kill the body but he cannot kill my faith nor my soul.
I hope this answer satisfies you.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,12:24) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 17 2010,09:31) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,09:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 16 2010,11:26) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 16 2010,08:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 16 2010,05:11) Marty and Shimmer, I appreciate the Sunday school lesson, but you both completely failed to address the scenario that I laid out in my opening post. I contend that the metaphor that I have crafted accurately represents the Christian gospel. Do you disagree with it? If so, what part of it is incorrect?
Hi WhatIsTrue:Your scenario does not acurately protray the Christian gospel in that God desires to have mercy where he can and mercy triumphs over justice.
The good guy in your scenario is definetly Jesus but the bad guy is the devil who has deceived the whole world into obeying him in transgressing God's Eternal Law while in unbelief.
It is about repentance when an individual believes the truth about God and about His testimony regarding His Son and about their deception.
Love in Christ,
Marty
If mercy triumphs then why is it hard to believe that even Jesus received mercy and was saved from the cross itself?Isn't the merciful due mercy?
Hi BD:Why is it so difficult to make you see that this is the only way that he could overcome sin. He had to obey God in spite of what any man could do to him. He did not yield to the devil and his temptations to make him sin, and in this way he defeated the devil.
It is because of his obedience that he was raised again from the dead. Without this, there is no resurrection from the dead. The wages of sin is death or spiritual separation from God.
All who are a part of the body of Christ OT and NT will receive a spiritual body at his coming for the church, and will have eternal life because of his sacrifice.
Love in Christ,
Marty
You just said yourself that Jesus overcame sin through obedience and I agree.Now if you contend that Jesus paid our wages of sin how is he seperated from God or dead?
Hi BD:Cursed is every man who hangeth on a tree. When a man was crucified this was a sign that he was a condemned man. Jesus had been accused of Blamsphemy against God and so they crucified him.
But God declared him not guilty because he obeyed Him even unto death on the cross, and so he raised him from the dead, and he is not dead. He is at the right hand of God my Father as head of the church, the body of Christ.
And I have God's witness to this truth when Jesus baptized me with the Holy Ghost. My sins have been washed away by the precious blood of the lamb of God, and your sins can also be washed away through repentance toward God and belief in what God has done for us in the person of Jesus Christ, God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ.
God is calling you into a personal relationship with Him through the gospel, but it is a personal decision that you have to want to make. It is your choice.
There is only one way to be reconciled to God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Basically you just said that Jesus was not guilty so God recognized “his” innocence and resurrected him.Wouldn't God have to recognize Jesus as Guilty to be a substitute for the sin of others?
It seems like the way to be recognized as innocent by God is to simply be obedient to God, is that right?
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 17 2010,10:12) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 17 2010,14:36) Ed J and Marty, Until you actually address the following question, I don't think that we can have a coherent discussion:
If my punishment for sin is supposed to be death with no resurrection how can my substitute's punishment for my sin be death with a side of resurrection?
I will gladly resume our discussion when you do address that question.
Hint: Quoting random verses, or even paraphrasing them, does not equate to answering the question. An actual answer would look something along the lines of:
Jesus's resurrection does not cancel his “payment” for my sin because …. .
Hi WhatIsTrue:I have already answered this question. It is about God's desire to have mercy on whosoever chooses to be reconciled to Him.
But as born again Christians, we are to follow in the footsteps of our Lord, and we suffer the same persecutions and insults that he did, and in this and by his blood we also learn to overcome sin. We could not become like Jesus if we did not have to put his Word into practice.
Stephen was stoned to death because he was serving the Lord, the Apostle Paul was beheaded, the Apostle Peter was crucified upside down, and so you see, we also may have do endure a few things as servants of the Most High God.
Man has the power to kill the body but he cannot kill my faith nor my soul.
I hope this answer satisfies you.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Forgive me if I missed this point previously, but are you saying that Jesus died, not as a substitute nor as a sacrifice, but simply as an example? In other words, his shed blood has nothing to do with salvation; it is just an example of what might happen to his followers?That would certainly invalidate the question that I asked, but it would also contradict mainstream christianity and likely much of the new testament.
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