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Yes, Ed J, I have asked a loaded question. However, if you feel like the scenario that I presented is incorrect, you should be able to explain how.
By the way, if your version of “Bible Truth” differs radically from mainstream christianity when it comes to salvation, then you should probably start off by telling me what you believe. My scenario is based on what I understand of mainstream christianity.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 11 2010,14:22) Yes, Ed J, I have asked a loaded question. However, if you feel like the scenario that I presented is incorrect, you should be able to explain how. By the way, if your version of “Bible Truth” differs radically from mainstream christianity when it comes to salvation, then you should probably start off by telling me what you believe. My scenario is based on what I understand of mainstream christianity.
Hi WIT,1John 2:2 And he (יהשוע המשיח) is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 06 2010,12:05) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2010,09:28) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) 1. Is this really justice? 2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Hi WIT,1) Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed.
Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death…
YHVH's Justice is: Jesus payed the sin debt for you.
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 2:2)2) Jesus was punished the way the guilty are to be punished.
If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' then consider the brother still must pay you?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed. Who payed the price of sin for nineveh?
Jonah 3:9-10 (King James Version)
9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Where is the payment? Do you not believe that God's mercy satisfies justice of the repentant?
Greetings B……. Gods mercy is justice…The people of Nineveh called upon the father and they changed their ways and for that reason they were spared judgement…That was JusticeQuote (theodorej @ Aug. 11 2010,19:45) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 06 2010,12:05) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2010,09:28) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) 1. Is this really justice? 2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Hi WIT,1) Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed.
Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death…
YHVH's Justice is: Jesus payed the sin debt for you.
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 2:2)2) Jesus was punished the way the guilty are to be punished.
If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' then consider the brother still must pay you?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed. Who payed the price of sin for nineveh?
Jonah 3:9-10 (King James Version)
9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Where is the payment? Do you not believe that God's mercy satisfies justice of the repentant?
Greetings B……. Gods mercy is justice…The people of Nineveh called upon the father and they changed their ways and for that reason they were spared judgement…That was Justice
I agree. That is my enture point and belief about God:Turn to HIM and he will turn to you.
Turn to god, or turn to another's description of said god? Because without other believers and their holy books, there would be no god to turn to.
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 12 2010,05:26) Turn to god, or turn to another's description of said god? Because without other believers and their holy books, there would be no god to turn to.
Hi Kejonn,Do you still believe God (falsely) doesn't exist?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kejonn @ Aug. 12 2010,05:26) Turn to god, or turn to another's description of said god? Because without other believers and their holy books, there would be no god to turn to.
Why are there any believers?Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 11 2010,10:14) Hi WIT, 1John 2:2 And he (יהשוע המשיח) is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
That verse does not address why Jesus had to be killed, which is pretty central to christian salvation doctrine. It does not address the significance of his death nor how the resurrection fits in. In other words, it says nothing.My scenario is very specific. Try addressing the specific parts that you think I got wrong. Don't just quote random, irrelevant verses at me.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 11 2010,11:56) Ed J, I believe that critical question in my opneing post was this one:
Now, for justice to be served, who do you think the town should punish?
That's the one that actually addresses the scenario that I laid out.
What,A wise sage once said, “That brings up another interesting debate point that is pointless. Asking loaded questions that are meant for nothing more than an attempt to entrap someone into unwillingly agree to something that they clearly don't willingly agree to!”
Justice:
The administering of deserved punishment or reward.
Grace:
Not getting the punishment deserved.
The Scribes played this same “game” and tried getting Jesus to administer “Justice” with the woman caught in adultery. You are trying to do the same with your scenario.
They didn't believe in Jesus' or God's Mercy and Justice because God is allowing His son's blood to be the payment for our sins.
Bod, instead of the rapist scenario let's go back to the beginning when “death” entered into our world. Eve did the worst act imaginable and caused death, pain and suffering to enter into EVERY person's life. It is an endless cycle. What were the consequences for her? Death.
Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Jhn 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Isn't this wonderful news?!!!
The Professor
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 11 2010,22:22) Yes, Ed J, I have asked a loaded question. However, if you feel like the scenario that I presented is incorrect, you should be able to explain how. By the way, if your version of “Bible Truth” differs radically from mainstream christianity when it comes to salvation, then you should probably start off by telling me what you believe. My scenario is based on what I understand of mainstream christianity.
What,If you were born blind was it because of your sins or the sins of your parents?
Jesus said, “Neither.” You were born blind so that the works of God might be displayed in you.
Walk in the light while there is still light.
The Professor
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 12 2010,09:38) Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 11 2010,19:45) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 06 2010,12:05) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2010,09:28) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) 1. Is this really justice? 2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Hi WIT,1) Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed.
Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death…
YHVH's Justice is: Jesus payed the sin debt for you.
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 2:2)2) Jesus was punished the way the guilty are to be punished.
If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' then consider the brother still must pay you?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed. Who payed the price of sin for nineveh?
Jonah 3:9-10 (King James Version)
9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Where is the payment? Do you not believe that God's mercy satisfies justice of the repentant?
Greetings B……. Gods mercy is justice…The people of Nineveh called upon the father and they changed their ways and for that reason they were spared judgement…That was Justice
I agree. That is my enture point and belief about God:Turn to HIM and he will turn to you.
Hello Bod,The USA is today's current “Nineveh” and God is calling her to repentance.
We will see if she changes her ways or if God will punish her.
First He will have to cripple her financially, then you will see the crime increase, death, disease, homelessness and famine will be rampant, people will call “evil” “good”, then you will see her curse God (or turn to God??) and finally we will see God's justice.
What righteousness and justice do you see being displayed in her? And is there a change for the better? Or worse?
Doesn't Revelation say that she will be destroyed?
Was she the whore that we are to come out of?
Oh where is the Justice? What will set her free?
The Professor
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 13 2010,14:55) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 11 2010,10:14) Hi WIT, 1John 2:2 And he (יהשוע המשיח) is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
1) That verse does not address why Jesus had to be killed, which is pretty central to christian salvation doctrine.
2) It does not address the significance of his death nor how the resurrection fits in. In other words, it says nothing.3) My scenario is very specific. Try addressing the specific parts that you think I got wrong. Don't just quote random, irrelevant verses at me.
Hi WIT,1) Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2) Rom.5:10-12 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God
through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man
sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:3) So you don't believe Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin;
meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgdavidbfun,
I don't know what your point is, but this thread was crafted to address a very specific question. If you agree that the whole cross thing had nothing to do with justice, then we have no quarrel.
Ed J,
Again, your random verses don't address the “how” or the “why”. They are all fluff and no meat.
Quote So you don't believe Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin? If Jesus was my substitute, why was he resurrected?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 14 2010,06:52) Ed J, Again, your random verses don't address the “how” or the “why”. They are all fluff and no meat.
Quote So you don't believe Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin? If Jesus was my substitute, why was he resurrected?
Excellent point. Never even thought of that question
Although I have went further asking why isn't he in hell as people say we will go for not accepting Jesus as our personal saviour as opposed to simply Worshiping God as he actually taught
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) In another thread, SimplyForgiven wrote the following: Quote No the person has been caught, there is just another willing to take your place to appease justice rather than the you paying for it. Justice is uphold when the punishment of the crime is dealt with. Someone has to pay for it, and it will be us, but someone has chosen to take our punishment for us, which saves us, and still pleases justice. This is obviously in reference to what the bible says of Jesus and his crucifixion. Two questions:
1. Is this really justice?
Let's suppose there was a little town where a particularly deviant individual lived. Let's call him Sinbad.
Sinbad had many bad habits, including raping women on Friday nights, strangling small children to death with his bare hands on Sunday mornings, and listening to (hard rock) “hair bands” from the 80's throughout the week.
One day, the town's people decide they have had enough, and they bring Sinbad to an assembly of all the town's people to be judged and punished. All agree that Sinbad has perpetrated many crimes and that he uniquely deserves the unusual punishment of immediate execution. As Sinbad is listening to his last song (likely something from Whitesnake, or worse, Bon Jovi), a young man comes running up to address the town. Let's call him Goodman.
Goodman was the nicest guy in town. He couldn't stand to see children crying and often lent his neighbors more sugar than they asked for. Today, Goodman had another good idea.
He said, “People of [undisclosed] town. We all agree that Sinbad is bad, and that he deserves death, but I am here today to take his place. All of the bad things that he has done consider them my crimes, and all of the good things that I have done consider them his deeds. Kill me now and bury his bad deeds with my body.”
Sinbad chimes in immediately saying, “Yes, kill Goodman and justice will be served! Remember, even if I commit crimes in the future, Goodman's death will stand in as the punishment. I fully accept his death in my place and acknowledge my badness. From now on, when you look at me, you should see Goodman's good-natured existence and his love for puppies and all things warm and fuzzy.”
Now, for justice to be served, who do you think the town should punish?
(For those of you who choose Goodman, please list your current and all possible future addresses so that the rest of us can make sure not to move into your town.)
2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Let's say that it is well known in this fictitious little town that Goodman is from the realm of the undead, (i.e. he can not really be killed). So, the real choice for the town is to kill Sinbad permanently, or to kill Goodman temporarily, allowing both Sinbad and Goodman to live out their natural (and unnatural) lives. In other words, killing Goodman doesn't really punish anyone, because it doesn't really affect him in the same way at all.
Knowing this, if you selected Goodman for execution above, do you still stand by that selection?
(Note: If you still think it's a good idea to “kill” Goodman in place of Sinbad, please consider getting sterilized at your earliest possible convenience.)
[For those of you who are a little slow, substitute your name for Sinbad's and Jesus's name for Goodman's, and you have a pretty tidy summary of the christian gospel. Neat, huh? You can use it in Sunday school if you like.]
Hi:When Hitler threatened to take over the world the armies of the world rose up against him to defeat him and his purpose. The weapons used to defeat Hitler were guns, grenades, bombs meant to kill him and those of his army in order to stop him.
Jesus came into the world to defeat the devil and his purpose, but his weapons of warfare were not carnal, that is guns, bombs, swords etc., but his weapons were to obey the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross. He did not compromise the Word of God in spite of what man could do to him, and because he did not sin, God raised him from the dead declaring him not guilty. If he had sinned, the devil would have defeated him, and he would not have been raised from the dead.
The scriptures states that the wages of sin is death or spiritual separation from God, and all of humanity has sinned and has been separated from God through the transgression of His eternal Law, The Ten Commandments. If Jesus had sinned, he and we would be eternally separated from God. There would be no resurrection from the dead.
The gospel which is the good news that God has given His Son as a sacarifice that humanity could have their sins forgiven and be reconciled to Him through His provision is preached to a world that is in unbelief. All have sinned in unbelief and have fallen short of the glory of God.
Salvation is then is not based on good works that anyone has done, but because they have believed what God has done for them in the person of Jesus His Christ, and His Son and have come to Him with a repentant heart through His provision.
Because salvation is based on what God has done for us no one can boast that they have been saved because of their goodness. As Christians we do good works out our love for Him.
When someone is born again, they are raised from the dead, or spiritual separation from God by His Holy Spirit just as Jesus was raised from the dead and declared not guilty. God is then the Father of their spirit, and they then also can overcome sin as they learn to apply the commandments that have come to humanity through Jesus but since as born again Christians we fall short of perfect obedience, we could not be saved except for the fact that Jesus is alive forever more to make intercession to God for our forgiveness when we do sin.
And so, God's way is to have mercy to anyone who wants to be reconciled to Him. They have sinned in unbelief. When we are reconciled to Him, then we have also joined him in His fight against evil.
Mercy then triumphs over justice where it can, but every man will be accountable toGod for the life that they have lived.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 14 2010,06:52) Ed J, Again, your random verses don't address the “how” or the “why”. They are all fluff and no meat.
Quote So you don't believe Jesus can be a substitute for 'your' sin; meaning you should die and not be resurrected because of 'your' sin? If Jesus was my substitute, why was he resurrected?
Hi WIT,Rom.4:25 Who was delivered for our offences,
and was raised again for our [righteousification].Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTo whomever,
It is with faith we believe in all God has written in the Scripture as being true, it is confirmed by what we start to see revealed to us, all in God's time.
If the Scriptures say God will save us with his Son, then I believe that, you have to realise theres more to it than just that,
The son came into the world, into the man Christ Jesus, through him everything was created, it was His world, as evil as it had become, but they killed him.
Wow, the very creator was killed by his own creation. And what did he do ? Nothing. Believing is with your heart even if you don't know much,
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 15 2010,22:02) To whomever, It is with faith we believe in all God has written in the Scripture as being true, it is confirmed by what we start to see revealed to us, all in God's time.
If the Scriptures say God will save us with his Son, then I believe that, you have to realise theres more to it than just that,
The son came into the world, into the man Christ Jesus, through him everything was created, it was His world, as evil as it had become, but they killed him.
Wow, the very creator was killed by his own creation. And what did he do ? Nothing. Believing is with your heart even if you don't know much,
Either you are saying that Jesus IS God(Creator) or you think their are 2 creators(polytheism) which is it?If you believe that Jesus IS God then he would have commited suicide and if you believe someone else sent him to be killed then that would be Human Sacrifice. Which is it?
Marty and Shimmer,
I appreciate the Sunday school lesson, but you both completely failed to address the scenario that I laid out in my opening post. I contend that the metaphor that I have crafted accurately represents the Christian gospel. Do you disagree with it? If so, what part of it is incorrect?
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