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In another thread, SimplyForgiven wrote the following:
Quote No the person has been caught, there is just another willing to take your place to appease justice rather than the you paying for it. Justice is uphold when the punishment of the crime is dealt with. Someone has to pay for it, and it will be us, but someone has chosen to take our punishment for us, which saves us, and still pleases justice. This is obviously in reference to what the bible says of Jesus and his crucifixion. Two questions:
1. Is this really justice?
Let's suppose there was a little town where a particularly deviant individual lived. Let's call him Sinbad.
Sinbad had many bad habits, including raping women on Friday nights, strangling small children to death with his bare hands on Sunday mornings, and listening to (hard rock) “hair bands” from the 80's throughout the week.
One day, the town's people decide they have had enough, and they bring Sinbad to an assembly of all the town's people to be judged and punished. All agree that Sinbad has perpetrated many crimes and that he uniquely deserves the unusual punishment of immediate execution. As Sinbad is listening to his last song (likely something from Whitesnake, or worse, Bon Jovi), a young man comes running up to address the town. Let's call him Goodman.
Goodman was the nicest guy in town. He couldn't stand to see children crying and often lent his neighbors more sugar than they asked for. Today, Goodman had another good idea.
He said, “People of [undisclosed] town. We all agree that Sinbad is bad, and that he deserves death, but I am here today to take his place. All of the bad things that he has done consider them my crimes, and all of the good things that I have done consider them his deeds. Kill me now and bury his bad deeds with my body.”
Sinbad chimes in immediately saying, “Yes, kill Goodman and justice will be served! Remember, even if I commit crimes in the future, Goodman's death will stand in as the punishment. I fully accept his death in my place and acknowledge my badness. From now on, when you look at me, you should see Goodman's good-natured existence and his love for puppies and all things warm and fuzzy.”
Now, for justice to be served, who do you think the town should punish?
(For those of you who choose Goodman, please list your current and all possible future addresses so that the rest of us can make sure not to move into your town.)
2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Let's say that it is well known in this fictitious little town that Goodman is from the realm of the undead, (i.e. he can not really be killed). So, the real choice for the town is to kill Sinbad permanently, or to kill Goodman temporarily, allowing both Sinbad and Goodman to live out their natural (and unnatural) lives. In other words, killing Goodman doesn't really punish anyone, because it doesn't really affect him in the same way at all.
Knowing this, if you selected Goodman for execution above, do you still stand by that selection?
(Note: If you still think it's a good idea to “kill” Goodman in place of Sinbad, please consider getting sterilized at your earliest possible convenience.)
[For those of you who are a little slow, substitute your name for Sinbad's and Jesus's name for Goodman's, and you have a pretty tidy summary of the christian gospel. Neat, huh? You can use it in Sunday school if you like.]
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) In another thread, SimplyForgiven wrote the following: Quote No the person has been caught, there is just another willing to take your place to appease justice rather than the you paying for it. Justice is uphold when the punishment of the crime is dealt with. Someone has to pay for it, and it will be us, but someone has chosen to take our punishment for us, which saves us, and still pleases justice. This is obviously in reference to what the bible says of Jesus and his crucifixion. Two questions:
1. Is this really justice?
Let's suppose there was a little town where a particularly deviant individual lived. Let's call him Sinbad.
Sinbad had many bad habits, including raping women on Friday nights, strangling small children to death with his bare hands on Sunday mornings, and listening to (hard rock) “hair bands” from the 80's throughout the week.
One day, the town's people decide they have had enough, and they bring Sinbad to an assembly of all the town's people to be judged and punished. All agree that Sinbad has perpetrated many crimes and that he uniquely deserves the unusual punishment of immediate execution. As Sinbad is listening to his last song (likely something from Whitesnake, or worse, Bon Jovi), a young man comes running up to address the town. Let's call him Goodman.
Goodman was the nicest guy in town. He couldn't stand to see children crying and often lent his neighbors more sugar than they asked for. Today, Goodman had another good idea.
He said, “People of [undisclosed] town. We all agree that Sinbad is bad, and that he deserves death, but I am here today to take his place. All of the bad things that he has done consider them my crimes, and all of the good things that I have done consider them his deeds. Kill me now and bury his bad deeds with my body.”
Sinbad chimes in immediately saying, “Yes, kill Goodman and justice will be served! Remember, even if I commit crimes in the future, Goodman's death will stand in as the punishment. I fully accept his death in my place and acknowledge my badness. From now on, when you look at me, you should see Goodman's good-natured existence and his love for puppies and all things warm and fuzzy.”
Now, for justice to be served, who do you think the town should punish?
(For those of you who choose Goodman, please list your current and all possible future addresses so that the rest of us can make sure not to move into your town.)
2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Let's say that it is well known in this fictitious little town that Goodman is from the realm of the undead, (i.e. he can not really be killed). So, the real choice for the town is to kill Sinbad permanently, or to kill Goodman temporarily, allowing both Sinbad and Goodman to live out their natural (and unnatural) lives. In other words, killing Goodman doesn't really punish anyone, because it doesn't really affect him in the same way at all.
Knowing this, if you selected Goodman for execution above, do you still stand by that selection?
(Note: If you still think it's a good idea to “kill” Goodman in place of Sinbad, please consider getting sterilized at your earliest possible convenience.)
[For those of you who are a little slow, substitute your name for Sinbad's and Jesus's name for Goodman's, and you have a pretty tidy summary of the christian gospel. Neat, huh? You can use it in Sunday school if you like.]
With permission I would like to use this post to show on another forum with the proper credit going to you of course.The writing in that post was very well done and accurately portrays those tenants.
The fact is also that goodman would not then cry and asked to be saved from this death nor would there be any one who betrayed him if it was his goal to die.
So why then if it is even suggested that God saved Jesus from the cross it sound so terrible?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) In another thread, SimplyForgiven wrote the following: Quote No the person has been caught, there is just another willing to take your place to appease justice rather than the you paying for it. Justice is uphold when the punishment of the crime is dealt with. Someone has to pay for it, and it will be us, but someone has chosen to take our punishment for us, which saves us, and still pleases justice. This is obviously in reference to what the bible says of Jesus and his crucifixion. Two questions:
1. Is this really justice?
Let's suppose there was a little town where a particularly deviant individual lived. Let's call him Sinbad.
Sinbad had many bad habits, including raping women on Friday nights, strangling small children to death with his bare hands on Sunday mornings, and listening to (hard rock) “hair bands” from the 80's throughout the week.
One day, the town's people decide they have had enough, and they bring Sinbad to an assembly of all the town's people to be judged and punished. All agree that Sinbad has perpetrated many crimes and that he uniquely deserves the unusual punishment of immediate execution. As Sinbad is listening to his last song (likely something from Whitesnake, or worse, Bon Jovi), a young man comes running up to address the town. Let's call him Goodman.
Goodman was the nicest guy in town. He couldn't stand to see children crying and often lent his neighbors more sugar than they asked for. Today, Goodman had another good idea.
He said, “People of [undisclosed] town. We all agree that Sinbad is bad, and that he deserves death, but I am here today to take his place. All of the bad things that he has done consider them my crimes, and all of the good things that I have done consider them his deeds. Kill me now and bury his bad deeds with my body.”
Sinbad chimes in immediately saying, “Yes, kill Goodman and justice will be served! Remember, even if I commit crimes in the future, Goodman's death will stand in as the punishment. I fully accept his death in my place and acknowledge my badness. From now on, when you look at me, you should see Goodman's good-natured existence and his love for puppies and all things warm and fuzzy.”
Now, for justice to be served, who do you think the town should punish?
(For those of you who choose Goodman, please list your current and all possible future addresses so that the rest of us can make sure not to move into your town.)
2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Let's say that it is well known in this fictitious little town that Goodman is from the realm of the undead, (i.e. he can not really be killed). So, the real choice for the town is to kill Sinbad permanently, or to kill Goodman temporarily, allowing both Sinbad and Goodman to live out their natural (and unnatural) lives. In other words, killing Goodman doesn't really punish anyone, because it doesn't really affect him in the same way at all.
Knowing this, if you selected Goodman for execution above, do you still stand by that selection?
(Note: If you still think it's a good idea to “kill” Goodman in place of Sinbad, please consider getting sterilized at your earliest possible convenience.)
[For those of you who are a little slow, substitute your name for Sinbad's and Jesus's name for Goodman's, and you have a pretty tidy summary of the christian gospel. Neat, huh? You can use it in Sunday school if you like.]
Hi WhatIsFalse,If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' not consider the debt paid?Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
indignation (Rev. 14:10), which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died
without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall
he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood
of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 28 2010,07:48) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) In another thread, SimplyForgiven wrote the following: Quote No the person has been caught, there is just another willing to take your place to appease justice rather than the you paying for it. Justice is uphold when the punishment of the crime is dealt with. Someone has to pay for it, and it will be us, but someone has chosen to take our punishment for us, which saves us, and still pleases justice. This is obviously in reference to what the bible says of Jesus and his crucifixion. Two questions:
1. Is this really justice?
Let's suppose there was a little town where a particularly deviant individual lived. Let's call him Sinbad.
Sinbad had many bad habits, including raping women on Friday nights, strangling small children to death with his bare hands on Sunday mornings, and listening to (hard rock) “hair bands” from the 80's throughout the week.
One day, the town's people decide they have had enough, and they bring Sinbad to an assembly of all the town's people to be judged and punished. All agree that Sinbad has perpetrated many crimes and that he uniquely deserves the unusual punishment of immediate execution. As Sinbad is listening to his last song (likely something from Whitesnake, or worse, Bon Jovi), a young man comes running up to address the town. Let's call him Goodman.
Goodman was the nicest guy in town. He couldn't stand to see children crying and often lent his neighbors more sugar than they asked for. Today, Goodman had another good idea.
He said, “People of [undisclosed] town. We all agree that Sinbad is bad, and that he deserves death, but I am here today to take his place. All of the bad things that he has done consider them my crimes, and all of the good things that I have done consider them his deeds. Kill me now and bury his bad deeds with my body.”
Sinbad chimes in immediately saying, “Yes, kill Goodman and justice will be served! Remember, even if I commit crimes in the future, Goodman's death will stand in as the punishment. I fully accept his death in my place and acknowledge my badness. From now on, when you look at me, you should see Goodman's good-natured existence and his love for puppies and all things warm and fuzzy.”
Now, for justice to be served, who do you think the town should punish?
(For those of you who choose Goodman, please list your current and all possible future addresses so that the rest of us can make sure not to move into your town.)
2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Let's say that it is well known in this fictitious little town that Goodman is from the realm of the undead, (i.e. he can not really be killed). So, the real choice for the town is to kill Sinbad permanently, or to kill Goodman temporarily, allowing both Sinbad and Goodman to live out their natural (and unnatural) lives. In other words, killing Goodman doesn't really punish anyone, because it doesn't really affect him in the same way at all.
Knowing this, if you selected Goodman for execution above, do you still stand by that selection?
(Note: If you still think it's a good idea to “kill” Goodman in place of Sinbad, please consider getting sterilized at your earliest possible convenience.)
[For those of you who are a little slow, substitute your name for Sinbad's and Jesus's name for Goodman's, and you have a pretty tidy summary of the christian gospel. Neat, huh? You can use it in Sunday school if you like.]
Hi WhatIsFalse,If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' not consider the debt paid?Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
indignation (Rev. 14:10), which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died
without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall
he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood
of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
If someone kills you what can your brother do to repay that?Ezekiel 13:21-23 (King James Version)
21Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:19-21Ed J wrote:
Quote If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' not consider the debt paid?This is what's known as “changing the subject”. I've posed three (possibly four) questions in my opening post. Try answering one of them before moving on to make your own point.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 29 2010,01:07) Ed J wrote: Quote If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' not consider the debt paid?This is what's known as “changing the subject”. I've posed three (possibly four) questions in my opening post. Try answering one of them before moving on to make your own point.
Hi WiT,Why is my point any less important (to you) that your point?
Your point seems to demonstrate that you don't accept God's offer of salvation; is this correct?Ed J
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2010,18:26) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 29 2010,01:07) Ed J wrote: Quote If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' not consider the debt paid?This is what's known as “changing the subject”. I've posed three (possibly four) questions in my opening post. Try answering one of them before moving on to make your own point.
Hi WiT,Why is my point any less important (to you) that your point?
Your point seems to demonstrate that you don't accept God's offer of salvation; is this correct?Ed J
What is it ED a free gift of salvation or did someone pay for it (not free)Ed J wrote:
Quote Why is my point any less important (to you) that your point?
Your point seems to demonstrate that you don't accept God's offer of salvation; is this correct?Your point does not address my direct questions. As I said previously, try answering the questions before changing the subject.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 05 2010,02:47) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2010,18:26) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 29 2010,01:07) Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2010,07:48)
If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' not consider the debt paid?This is what's known as “changing the subject”. I've posed three (possibly four) questions in my opening post. Try answering one of them before moving on to make your own point.
Hi WiT,Why is my point any less important (to you) that your point?
Your point seems to demonstrate that you don't accept God's offer of salvation; is this correct?Ed J
Your point does not address my direct questions. As I said previously, try answering the questions before changing the subject.Hi WIT,
Your last Post does not answer my question. The focus is “Replying to Justice”, look at the title bar!
You changing the focus (according to 'your' understanding) does not change “Bible Truth”!Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed.
Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death…YHVH's Justice is: Jesus payed the sin debt for you.
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 2:2)This is “Bible Truth”! So my example is SPOT ON! (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Isaiah 55:8-9 For my(YHVH's) thoughts are not your(WIT's) thoughts,
neither are your(WIT's) ways my(YHVH's) ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my(YHVH's) ways higher than your(WIT's) ways,
and my(YHVH's) thoughts than your(WIT's) thoughts.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd J,
Let me spell it out for you:
A-N-S-W-E-R T-H-E Q-U-E-S-T-I-O-N-S I-N M-Y F-I-R-ST P-O-S-T !!!!
The questions are not very hard and would take you ten seconds to bang out the answers. Once you address them, we can discuss “sin debt” as much as you like.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) 1. Is this really justice? 2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Hi WIT,1) Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed.
Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death…
YHVH's Justice is: Jesus payed the sin debt for you.
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 2:2)2) Jesus was punished the way the guilty are to be punished.
If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' then consider the brother still must pay you?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2010,09:28) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) 1. Is this really justice? 2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Hi WIT,1) Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed.
Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death…
YHVH's Justice is: Jesus payed the sin debt for you.
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 2:2)2) Jesus was punished the way the guilty are to be punished.
If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' then consider the brother still must pay you?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED,I asked you if someone rapes a loved one who else could pay the price except the actual culprit. Would you really accept their brother paying the price for rape?
Money and morality are two different things ED
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2010,09:28) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ July 28 2010,02:33) 1. Is this really justice? 2. Can someone who is not punished in the same way as the convict was supposed to be punished really be said to “take his place”?
Hi WIT,1) Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed.
Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death…
YHVH's Justice is: Jesus payed the sin debt for you.
Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 2:2)2) Jesus was punished the way the guilty are to be punished.
If someone owes you money
and the brother pays you instead,
would 'you' then consider the brother still must pay you?Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote Justice dictates: that 'a sin debt' needs to be payed. Who payed the price of sin for nineveh?
Jonah 3:9-10 (King James Version)
9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Where is the payment? Do you not believe that God's mercy satisfies justice of the repentant?
Ed J,
I believe that critical question in my opneing post was this one:
Now, for justice to be served, who do you think the town should punish?
That's the one that actually addresses the scenario that I laid out.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 11 2010,03:56) Ed J, I believe that critical question in my opneing post was this one:
Now, for justice to be served, who do you think the town should punish?
That's the one that actually addresses the scenario that I laid out.
HI WIT,What you laid out in your opening statement does NOT line up with “Bible Truth”!
Read my Posts beginning Here for a further explanation of 'your' tactics.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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