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I just wanted to point out that frequently many posters choose to spend a majority of their posting describing their opinions of other members character and motives.
Why do this?
In fact, what it does is usually just cause communication barriers so you don't ever really stand a chance of the other person learning from you.
Why can't we let our yes be yes and our no be no.
Just sharing of information. Whether agreeing or disagreeing with each other.
Anything personal should be either in private or of a postive loving nature.
Just my thoughts.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,20:04) I just wanted to point out that frequently many posters choose to spend a majority of their posting describing their opinions of other members character and motives. Why do this?
In fact, what it does is usually just cause communication barriers so you don't ever really stand a chance of the other person learning from you.
Why can't we let our yes be yes and our no be no.
Just sharing of information. Whether agreeing or disagreeing with each other.
Anything personal should be either in private or of a postive loving nature.
Just my thoughts.
You ask at least two different questions. A discussion like this should conform to the ethic of playing the ball not the man, dealing with ideas not percieved character flaws. There is a fine line there, you could think me an idiot for not agreeing with your point of view, and vice versa, but the focus is still the idea, not the person who proposed it (who may only be proposing, not actually believing it himself).The very crux of discussion here though, is not just letting yes be yes and no be no. If a person says xxx is my unshakeable belief and I have no particular reason to believe it, then you can draw your own conclusion, but if someone says they support Israeli tank activity in the West bank, or identify with Palestinian suicide bombers, do you seriously think 'my yes is my yes' is an acceptable end to that discussion, for the purpose of 'information' only? How would that improve anyone's understanding?
I wouldn't be so sure that what you read here is just a range of different camps firing at one another from unmoving trench positions. There is a lot of learning and refining of ideas going on too.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,20:17) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,20:04) I just wanted to point out that frequently many posters choose to spend a majority of their posting describing their opinions of other members character and motives. Why do this?
In fact, what it does is usually just cause communication barriers so you don't ever really stand a chance of the other person learning from you.
Why can't we let our yes be yes and our no be no.
Just sharing of information. Whether agreeing or disagreeing with each other.
Anything personal should be either in private or of a postive loving nature.
Just my thoughts.
You ask at least two different questions. A discussion like this should conform to the ethic of playing the ball not the man, dealing with ideas not percieved character flaws. There is a fine line there, you could think me an idiot for not agreeing with your point of view, and vice versa, but the focus is still the idea, not the person who proposed it (who may only be proposing, not actually believing it himself).The very crux of discussion here though, is not just letting yes be yes and no be no. If a person says xxx is my unshakeable belief and I have no particular reason to believe it, then you can draw your own conclusion, but if someone says they support Israeli tank activity in the West bank, or identify with Palestinian suicide bombers, do you seriously think 'my yes is my yes' is an acceptable end to that discussion, for the purpose of 'information' only? How would that improve anyone's understanding?
I wouldn't be so sure that what you read here is just a range of different camps firing at one another from unmoving trench positions. There is a lot of learning and refining of ideas going on too.
Stuart
I agree, Stu. I mainly am just pointing out the obvious jabs and taunts that don't really contribute much and instead just harden hearts.Has anything anyone here has ever said given you pause or lead you to consider seriously the existence of God?
Have you learned anything beyond just data of what others believe?
Have you learned anything that has altered your perspective, even if only slightly, since you first joined?
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,20:23) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,20:17) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,20:04) I just wanted to point out that frequently many posters choose to spend a majority of their posting describing their opinions of other members character and motives. Why do this?
In fact, what it does is usually just cause communication barriers so you don't ever really stand a chance of the other person learning from you.
Why can't we let our yes be yes and our no be no.
Just sharing of information. Whether agreeing or disagreeing with each other.
Anything personal should be either in private or of a postive loving nature.
Just my thoughts.
You ask at least two different questions. A discussion like this should conform to the ethic of playing the ball not the man, dealing with ideas not percieved character flaws. There is a fine line there, you could think me an idiot for not agreeing with your point of view, and vice versa, but the focus is still the idea, not the person who proposed it (who may only be proposing, not actually believing it himself).The very crux of discussion here though, is not just letting yes be yes and no be no. If a person says xxx is my unshakeable belief and I have no particular reason to believe it, then you can draw your own conclusion, but if someone says they support Israeli tank activity in the West bank, or identify with Palestinian suicide bombers, do you seriously think 'my yes is my yes' is an acceptable end to that discussion, for the purpose of 'information' only? How would that improve anyone's understanding?
I wouldn't be so sure that what you read here is just a range of different camps firing at one another from unmoving trench positions. There is a lot of learning and refining of ideas going on too.
Stuart
I agree, Stu. I mainly am just pointing out the obvious jabs and taunts that don't really contribute much and instead just harden hearts.Has anything anyone here has ever said given you pause or lead you to consider seriously the existence of God?
Have you learned anything beyond just data of what others believe?
Have you learned anything that has altered your perspective, even if only slightly, since you first joined?
Sure. I have learned a great deal about the bible (I'm afraid that has not had the effect that some might hope it would, actually rather the reverse); I have first-hand experience of the emotional hot-spots of belief some hold and others don't; I really do have a better appreciation for the range and extent of the disagreements that exist within the umbrella of 'serious' christianity; I really had no clue about the extent of arguments over the supposed trinity, which is endlessly fascinating for someone like me who is interested in why people believe strange things. I have had to straighten up in my mind some of my own philosophy that I could not express clearly before, or things that did not quite meet up the way they should.I have even enjoyed some good jokes. The one where god challenges the scientist to create life, and the scientist gets ready with his beakers and bucket of soil, until god says 'uh.. use your own dirt”, is still my favourite.
Am I less of an atheist? No. Has my trust in the scientific method been shaken? No again. Would those be desirable outcomes for you? Shame if it was, that would denigrate the benefits I have enjoyed.
Stuart
Son of Light,
I couldn't agree more.As with most others, Over the years as I've sought truth, I've seen my understanding grow. Unfortunately many paint those further back in that process as the devils pawn. They forget where they've come from or even worse they forget we are to be known by our love for one another.
I want to be clear love requires we not allow any and all teachings, but many times the ones being argued have both sides with scripture supporting them. One, or both sides are wrong but if the side with error is honest in their quest for truth the Spirit will (with some time) guide them to all truth. I believe my part should be to not throw up barriers or cause them to stumble by being an unnecessarily confrontational.
My opinion – Wm
2 Tim. 2:14-15 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
Can anyone tell me what these “words” are that we are not to argue over? And why these “words” cause ruin? I believe these “words” are the differing interpretations of scripture and it is our arguing that drive many away as they fail to see the love of God.
Hi ST,
This is not an assembly of the saved as Paul addressed in his letters.
It is as the city of Athens of Acts 17.
No stoics though.Some people get the wrong idea when their teaching is tested or passed through the fire. Some take that personally, but they shouldn't. We don't have to take offense because all teachings should be tested vigorously and we shouldn't be so proud that we take offense. If we are humble and willing to change, then rejoicing at discovering truth should supersede any shame we might feel about being wrong.
I do agree that we shouldn't pass judgment on others as some have, but there are people here that do not come here to learn at all, rather they come here with pride wanting to win every argument and such people really only waste the time of others and themselves. Such people often avoid the questions or teachings that contradict what they say and when they don't have an answer they could just say “I don't know”, but pride causes them to avoid the questions instead. From such there is no benefit. They are not really interested in the truth at all. They promote their narrow view and to hell with the rest.
I personally listen to everyone, but after some time, I have chosen to simply ignore some for good reason, as they have nothing good to contribute in my opinion.
I hope that others would do the same. Some people just are not worth listening to.
But give everybody a fair go, because God could be speaking through a person and to reject them is not a good reflection on yourself. But others make it clear that they are not interested in the truth. It is these people that I tend to ignore.
Hi all!
I know that I come across strong sometimes, because I am very defensive of my faith.
But I sincerely do try not to get personal.
To me patronizing, condemnation, accusing, condescention, belittling, name calling Etc, should not be practiced among Christians.
Words like stupid, ignorant, dumb, idiot, should never be used.
Even words like “Stubborn” are appellative to all. Because most of the time the accuser bases their use of the word for someone on their unwillingness to agree with them.
Yet they themselves refuse to change.
Blind is another one.
I can tell a blind man, “You are blind”, but as far as he knows he is not, so he says you are blind.
The reality is they both see through their own glasses.
Question is which one is right? So it leaves us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
So why say “you are blind”? This just puts up walls of defence.
Why not just turn on the light by just telling them what you think or believe as the truth.
If it is the truth and is the light, then they will be able to see even the little glimmer of light through their clossed eyes and may open their eyes.
If not, then try turning on another switch. Once you have run out of switches to turn on, then leave them to God and pray.
But saying you are blind does not work and is offensive.
I pray I dont offend anyone by attacking their character, and if I have please tell me and I will repent and oppologize to you.
Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.Jesus said…
Mark 9:40
For he that is not against us is on our part.I believe that if a person confesses Jesus as their saviour then we should respect that and not be judges of the heart or motives of that person.
Some would say “but there are different Jesus's”, which may be true, and they disagree in major issues like his nature.
However I have yet to hear or see a person who believes in Jesus deny the first and second commandment.
Matt 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.This should be the central thing for all believers to not only love our brothers in Christ but our neighbors as ourselves.
Love one another.
Blessings.
About judging others…
Matthew 7:2-5
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
A Brother Who Sins Against You
Matthew 18:15-17
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Love as the greatest Commandment
Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: ” 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
On another thread (the real long one where Christians can't decide who their god is) WJ said
Quote Were they Greek scholars and translated the scriptures? What is your point and what do they have to do with the Greek text? You are starting to sound like Tow, he believes that Christians and the NT scriptures are responsible for Adolph Hitler killing the Jews.
You're getting just as bad as Nick, WJ. You know I never said that although I do think that the Christian anti-semitism that preceded Hitler greatly influence his hatred of Jews. And I am not alone.
From http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm
====================================================
Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's “evil” have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible.Hitler said “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.)
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
=============================================There's much more out there, just search.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 16 2008,11:54) On another thread (the real long one where Christians can't decide who their god is) WJ said Quote Were they Greek scholars and translated the scriptures? What is your point and what do they have to do with the Greek text? You are starting to sound like Tow, he believes that Christians and the NT scriptures are responsible for Adolph Hitler killing the Jews.
You're getting just as bad as Nick, WJ. You know I never said that although I do think that the Christian anti-semitism that preceded Hitler greatly influence his hatred of Jews. And I am not alone.
From http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm
====================================================
Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's “evil” have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible.Hitler said “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.)
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
=============================================There's much more out there, just search.
TowThere is nothing wrong with speaking the truth!
You said…
“I'm sorry but history shows that it was Christians who killed and persecuted many Jews. “Here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….0;st=30You said…
“Because history records that the actions were carried out by Christians. Speak to historians, not me.”Here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….0;st=30You said…
“All of this persecution and killing was bad fruit thus by Jesus' words, Christianity is a bad tree.”Here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….0;st=30But you did at least admit that some or maybe one is a true Christian with good fruit (Corrie Ten Boom).
You also said…
I don't deny there were and are very good Christians, just are there truly are good Muslims, Buddhists, taoists, and even atheists. Its called 'loving your fellow man' and it is not unique to any religion.Here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….0;st=30But then you nullified it by saying this…
“But it is well established that the roots of anti-judaism is rooted in Christianity and the GT was the source.”Here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….0;st=30The tree of Christianity is either corrupt or it isnt (though the GT has no such teachings).
You say it is and that it is responsible for anti-semitism and the killing of the Jews.
Which agrees with what I said…
Were they Greek scholars and translated the scriptures? What is your point and what do they have to do with the Greek text?You are starting to sound like Tow, he believes that Christians and the NT scriptures are responsible for Adolph Hitler killing the Jews.
Here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….t=10070
Well if you want to put it that way, go ahead. You did alot of work there WJ, for what end I'm not sure.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 16 2008,12:34) Well if you want to put it that way, go ahead. You did alot of work there WJ, for what end I'm not sure.
TowWhy did you post what you did in the judging others thread?
I didn't want to start a new thread
. Plus you used my name in the “Believer's Place” forum, where I'm not supposed to venture.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 16 2008,12:37) I didn't want to start a new thread . Plus you used my name in the “Believer's Place” forum, where I'm not supposed to venture.
TowYes, but you could have posted it here…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….0;st=30
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