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Hi,
I had indicated that I did not know exactly when Christians would go before the judgment seat of Christ to receive their rewards:
The following scripture came to mind and so I'll paste it below:
Rev.22:12 Jesus states:
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.God Bless
Hi 94,
You say
“As I explained in my post relative to judgment, I believe that Hebrews 9:27 refers to spiritual death followed by judgment.”Heb 9.27
” 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: “I know that is what you believe but what is wrong with the simple explanation-physical death?
gen 3
19By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”Ps 90
” 3You turn man back into dust
And say, “Return, O children of men.”
Ps 104
” 29You hide Your face, they are dismayed;
You take away their spirit, they expire
And return to their dust.”
Ecc 12
” 7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. “Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2007,16:30) Hi 94,
You say
“As I explained in my post relative to judgment, I believe that Hebrews 9:27 refers to spiritual death followed by judgment.”Heb 9.27
” 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: “I know that is what you believe but what is wrong with the simple explanation-physical death?
gen 3
19By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”Ps 90
” 3You turn man back into dust
And say, “Return, O children of men.”
Ps 104
” 29You hide Your face, they are dismayed;
You take away their spirit, they expire
And return to their dust.”
Ecc 12
” 7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. “
Hi Nick:You ask:
I know that is what you believe but what is wrong with the simple explanation-physical death?
And I gather by this that you are indicating that Hebrews 9:27 could indicate that judgment will follow physical death.
What I see wrong with this is that God informed Adam and Eve of their judgment as you have quoted from Gen. 3 and that included physical death. If he was to be resurrected to incur further judgment, God would have told him this.
In the New Testament, our commission is to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature who wants to hear. The good news is that the judgment has been paid in full for the first death, or spiritual death for every man. From this death or spiritual separation it is possible for man to repent and be reconciled to God, but the second death will be eternal death or separation form God.
Hebrews 9:27 says that it is appointed unto man “once to die” not twice to die. It is not God's will for any man to perish, but that all may come to repentance. There is no repentance for a man once he has received the mark of the beast or has died in his sins.
Jesus stated for those in the New Covenant era: Joh 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (God always tells us what to expect with a few exceptions like the seven thunders and the exact day and hour that Jesus will return for his people)The Psalms that you quoted read a little differently in the KJ version quoted below. Nothing is said about judgement here.
Psalm 90:3
Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.Psalm 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.You quote Ecc 12:7 which states: Ecc 12
” 7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. “I read a little farther and quote the following from Ecc 12:
12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
12:14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.I don't know whether or not I have answered your question, but if not please let me know.
Hi 94,
So does ALL MEN in Heb 9 not include Adam?
Why not -he is archetypal MAN?
Death comes to all of us through Adam but we still face judgement at least at the tribunal of Christ.
Death , the fate of Adam is not unique to him so why would you say he is unique in not being resurrected?Hi:
Just thought I would paste the following scripture relative to Adam:
Job 31:33
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:Adam sinned and judgement was pronounced by God.
Gen. 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.The scripture does not show us that Adam repented,
Prov. 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.Hi 94,
What he was cursed with we share.
So why is Adam worse than us?
We know his faults but are ours less?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 17 2007,14:54) Hi 94,
What he was cursed with we share.
So why is Adam worse than us?
We know his faults but are ours less?
Hi Nick:I am not trying to show that Adam was any worse than we, but I am trying to show you that he did not repent. If he had, he would have obtained mercy, just as Enoch repented and walked with God 300 years and was translated and taken by God and did not have to suffer physical death.
We also as born again Christians have to repent when we sin.
As the scripture from Proverbs that I quoted states:
Prov. 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.God Bless
Hi 94,
So you do not say Adam is an exception who will not be resurrected with the possibility of finding mercy?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2007,08:56) Hi 94,
So you do not say Adam is an exception who will not be resurrected with the possibility of finding mercy?
Hi Nick:I don't know how many ways I can tell you other than what I have already written.
Those who repent and are reconciled to God in this life will find mercy and those who do not will not have mercy. This is not my opinion this is the written Word of God. I just quoted Proverbs 28:13.
The second resurrection of the dead is a resurrection for those who have died in their sins and have not been judged. The second death is eternal separation from God. This is my understanding.
Adam was judged by God and has returned to the dust as God told him that he would. God did not tell him that he would be resurrected.
Hi 94,
You have shown that all men suffer the same consequences that Adam did, thus showing we are no different to him, and that also he has no different eternal fate to other men and awaits the same resurrection that all men await.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2007,10:54) Hi 94,
You have shown that all men suffer the same consequences that Adam did, thus showing we are no different to him, and that also he has no different eternal fate to other men and awaits the same resurrection that all men await.
Ok Nick:If that is what you want to believe, then that is your prerogative, but that is not what I have shown. I have shown that Adam did not repent, and therefore, he is dead.
Hi 94,
So for all men who die without repentance is there no resurrection?Jn 5
” 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. “
Adam is a man.
He is in the grave.
Why should he be different and this scripture not apply to him??Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2007,11:43) Hi 94,
So for all men who die without repentance is there no resurrection?Jn 5
” 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. “
Adam is a man.
He is in the grave.
Why should he be different and this scripture not apply to him??
Hi Nick:Adam has already been judged. Would you prefer that he be resurrected and be cast into the lake of fire? How about those who God has destroyed in the flood waters of Noah's time. God has destroyed them. Would you prefer that they be resurrected to be destroyed again in the lake of fire? And how about those who were stoned to death because of their sin under the Law of Moses. Do you believe that they will be resurrected to be destroyed in the lake of fire?
I said that the second resurrection of the dead is for those who have died in their sins who have not been judged.
Jesus states: Joh 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.Those prior to Jesus coming did not have the opportunity to have the gospel preached to them, and so he is speaking of those who have had the opportunity to hear the gospel.
Those who have worshipped the Anti-Christ and are alive when Jesus comes for the church will be judged by the seven last plagues. Do you believe that they will be resurrected to incur further punishment when they finally die?
God Bless
Hi 94,
Not a case of what we would like but what is written.
Where is it written that Adam is different to us, his curse and death was all he would receive, that he alone among men is an exception to Jn 5 and he will not be resurrected and judged?Hi Nick:
What is written relative to Adam is: Gen 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.John 5 is applicable to those who have heard the gospel. You are taking some scriptures out of context and trying to make them apply to your understanding. And so, I'll paste what Jesus has said below:
John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you *, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you *, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing *: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.That is what is written.
God Bless
Hi 94,
You say
“What is written relative to Adam is: Gen 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”So the true curse was on THE GROUND.
Adam had to work harder.
Same for us.Hi 94,
The verses you show encompass the two resurrections.
First[24-26]
Second[28-29]
The second involves ALL MEN.
But you take it on yourself to say Adam will not be raised and face judgement?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2007,13:51) Hi 94,
The verses you show encompass the two resurrections.
First[24-26]
Second[28-29]
The second involves ALL MEN.
But you take it on yourself to say Adam will not be raised and face judgement?
No Nick:You are the one who is taking upon himself to say the second resurrection involves all men. Where is that written? I have shown you through John 5 in context that Jesus was referring to those who have heard the gospel. You cannot take one scripture and make a doctrine out of it without understanding the whole of what the scripture is saying.
The curse on the ground was part of Adam's judgment. Also, that curse was lifted after the flood in Noah's time. We have to work to earn a living but the curse is not on the ground to bring up thorns and thistles as a judgment to us as it was for Adam.
We also have God's promise that he will not destroy the inhabitants of the earth through flood waters again.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2007,14:46) Hi 94
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hi Nick:You see that as physical death, and I see that as spiritual death.
Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.But again, we must understand this in light of what all the scripture is saying and not solely on one verse.
God Bless
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