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Hi MM,
If something is important then God presents it in several ways to give witness to that truth. What is more important than final judgement? All of God's relationship with man since Adam culminates in this event. To find it only presented once is unthinkable for me.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2005,03:55) Any more thoughts on this forum?
Hi,Yes, I've been reading here, and these are very informative comments. My own beliefs in this area have changed a number of times and are likely to do so yet again – at least to some degree. Hope this won't be too long, but here goes my very rough sketch.
First, I feel there are probably 2 resurrections rather than 2 judgements. There must be at least 2 resurrections, because the 1st one is declared to be the best.
Judgement may not be a momentary declaration. It seems that Judgement is a determination made over the duration of our entire physical lives. Judgement begins at the House of God (the body). We are being judged now.
At Messiah's return, either we will still be alive and will be translated into spirit beings along with those faithful ones who have already died. They first must be resurrected to life. Then it appears they arise (as did Messiah – 1st to physical life and then later the same morning, at time of the Wave Sheaf, he was then translated into spirit and subsequently transported into Heaven to be with The Father).
There seems to be a ceremony (rewards) in Heaven where the gift of Immortality is bestowed on the elect by The Father. Then at a prescribed time, all the Saints return with Messiah to the earth and a War ensues. After the war, the Millennium begins.
At the end of the 1000 year reign, all other deceased are resurrected (2nd Resurrection) to physical life (as humans again) and at this time they are now called and judgement of their lives begins. As they each become repentant and are converted, they too in order are translated into spirit beings and are also granted immortality.
When all is complete, The City of God comes out of Heaven and covers the earth. At this point, all the earth and inhabitants are pure. It is now that Messiah hands all over to The Father who abides with us all – No more sadness – No more tears.
Reality
Quote (Reality @ Oct. 03 2005,06:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2005,03:55) Any more thoughts on this forum?
Hi,Yes, I've been reading here, and these are very informative comments. My own beliefs in this area have changed a number of times and are likely to do so yet again – at least to some degree. Hope this won't be too long, but here goes my very rough sketch.
First, I feel there are probably 2 resurrections rather than 2 judgements. There must be at least 2 resurrections, because the 1st one is declared to be the best.
Judgement may not be a momentary declaration. It seems that Judgement is a determination made over the duration of our entire physical lives. Judgement begins at the House of God (the body). We are being judged now.
At Messiah's return, either we will still be alive and will be translated into spirit beings along with those faithful ones who have already died. They first must be resurrected to life. Then it appears they arise (as did Messiah – 1st to physical life and then later the same morning, at time of the Wave Sheaf, he was then translated into spirit and subsequently transported into Heaven to be with The Father).
There seems to be a ceremony (rewards) in Heaven where the gift of Immortality is bestowed on the elect by The Father. Then at a prescribed time, all the Saints return with Messiah to the earth and a War ensues. After the war, the Millennium begins.
At the end of the 1000 year reign, all other deceased are resurrected (2nd Resurrection) to physical life (as humans again) and at this time they are now called and judgement of their lives begins. As they each become repentant and are converted, they too in order are translated into spirit beings and are also granted immortality.
When all is complete, The City of God comes out of Heaven and covers the earth. At this point, all the earth and inhabitants are pure. It is now that Messiah hands all over to The Father who abides with us all – No more sadness – No more tears.
Reality
Thank you reality,
But do spirit beings have heavenly bodies? Maybe-like the angels. Do we go to heaven? I don't see it written.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2005,19:57) Reality[/quote]
Thank you reality,
But do spirit beings have heavenly bodies? Maybe-like the angels. Do we go to heaven? I don't see it written.
Hello Nick,I suppose I have more questions than answers, but I'll try to explain what I understand – up to now anyway.
I believe that spirit beings are pictured or described in a number of ways. I expect they must have some type of body/identity in order that one would be determined from another. I have read that there are cherubim, seraphim, arch-angles etc. each having various qualities differing from one another. I believe all of these beings would be categorized as spiritual beings and even sons of God. I think all of them were generated at or near the same time – a very long time ago – and given differing responsibilities spanning various lengths of time and place.
It appears that some have been elevated at times while others are demoted. Even Lucifer was at one time a covering cherum (a rather high position), but he is no longer in that position nor does he continue to be known by that same name.
“going to Heaven” could mean several areas. I think there is evidence of at least 8 realms in Heaven and possibly even more, so one could be carried to varying realms for varying lengths of time. I actually believe that Enoch is in one of these as well as the Garden of Eden. Why else would there be cherubim with swords guarding the entrance to it if not? After Adam and Eve and all the animals were driven from Eden, cherubim with swords were set to guard the entry. I've never read that they have stopped guarding it.
One could be transported to one of the realms of Heaven for a short time and then return to earth. Some people think they only go there in vision but don't really go there physically. I don't know for sure, but it makes more sense to me that they actually go there. I've read a great deal of literature, which speaks of these type trips as being rather common. It does seem that most if not all of this type travel came to a halt after Messiah left us. He plans to return, however; and possibly we will someday be able to move about in many realms as well.
But my understanding of 'going to Heaven' is not that people are wafted off to Heaven at their death to stay there. At the end of Revelations, it appears that The Father will come here, so why would we wish our abode to be in Heaven for all time?
Reality
Hi reality,
Men may see visions of heaven such as happened with Paul and John. But John was still on Patmos when he saw Revelation. Would we want to return to earth as is our eternal destiny, if we had been in heaven?
Surely Eden was on earth as Genesis shows? Surely it may still be guarded and the guards not be visible?ps,
We are told in 1 cor 15 that we put on a new heavenly body at the first resurrection so that we are like the man from heaven. Yes I agree the Archangels are sons of God as seen in Jb 1, 2, 38 and Satan was among them.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2005,22:53) Hi reality,
Men may see visions of heaven such as happened with Paul and John. But John was still on Patmos when he saw Revelation. Would we want to return to earth as is our eternal destiny, if we had been in heaven?
Surely Eden was on earth as Genesis shows? Surely it may still be guarded and the guards not be visible?
Yes, I've read of visons/dreams and it may be so. These events were recorded a very long time after they happened, and were translated and requoted a number of times by numerous individuals. There is room for doubt as to their word-for-word accuracy today.After reading volumes of Pseudepigrapha (OT and NT) there seems to be more evidence that individuals were carried to other realms by hosts of Heaven. This was always at the behest of a higher being and never at the whim of the individual. So we could not go there and decide on our own that we preferred to stay rather than return as happened with all accounts I've read up to now. (excepting Enoch- yet God took him so he didn't just decide to go and not return).
Then again the biblical rendition of Paul's vision and that of John on the Isle of Patmos may be exactly as recorded. I tend to doubt it though, because what then would be proof that Joseph Smith of the Mormons did not receive just as valid a vision. Or maybe Muhammed, or maybe Ellen G. White? I don't believe them though. Where is the dividing line to prove one more accurate from the others? I think they need to be borne out by Scripture of two witnesses at least.
Yes, Eden was definitely on earth. There is room to believe that it could still be here only not visible to us. Still, it seems more likely to me that it is hidden in another realm as well as the Ark of the Covenant and Moses' body.
After reading Stephen Hawkings and a few other authors regarding black holes, worm holes etc. it seems entirely possible. At least it makes the intertestamental literature like,”Shepherd of Hermas” and others much more realistic.
Reality
Hi reality,
There is no room to doubt the veracity of scripture except where men have deliberately altered it. The Holy Spirit will quickly reveal to you that the teachings and bible version of the Mormons is fallacious. It is a good thing to check as it becomes very plain in style and uniformity and harmony that is is man made.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2005,23:34) Hi reality,
There is no room to doubt the veracity of scripture except where man have deliberately altered it. The Holy Spirit will quickly reveal to you that the teachings and bible version of the Mormons is fallacious. It is a good thing to check as it becomes very plain in style and uniformity and harmony that is is man made.
I agree with you on that particular literature. Yet, there are many extant works, which were eliminated from the Bible or were never included at all.The very idea of a set of canon may come from those who canonized it in the first place. I am not saying that the books of the Bible as they appear today are entirely false, but I also do not believe that those books are all-inclusive of literature available. What I mean is there were many books written and various groups of people preferred some of them more than others.
But where did the idea that there is a perfect set of 66 books (more or less depending on history) which are inspired and that all others that did not make it into this man-made group are not? I do not believe the section which is now referred to as the Old Testament is any more perfectly gathered than those classified as the New Testament. Historically, I do not see that The Father ever forecast that a perfect package entitled “The Holy Bible” would be the sum total of inspired literature by His choice. He never mentioned such a set of books.
The Holy Bible is just as man-made as The Book of Mormon, but literature does exist (some of it within the pages of The Holy Bible) which was inspired to be written by men – words uttered by angles or the Spirit from The Father.
I am quite sure though that even if one should only have one copy of a modern bible, and if that one trusted The Father to lead him, he would be able to discern His perfect will from that bible.
I am just so pleased that additional early and extant literature has surfaced now in our day.
Reality
Hi reality,
The bible was written by men under the power of the Holy Spirit so to judge the work is to judge the true author. The Spirit is necessary to judge what is from God. I agree some other books maybe should have been added such as Enoch but we have enough to know all we need to know and the rest will be made plain.Quote (Reality @ Oct. 03 2005,22:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2005,19:57) Reality
Thank you reality,
But do spirit beings have heavenly bodies? Maybe-like the angels. Do we go to heaven? I don't see it written.[/quote]
Hello Nick,I suppose I have more questions than answers, but I'll try to explain what I understand – up to now anyway.
I believe that spirit beings are pictured or described in a number of ways. I expect they must have some type of body/identity in order that one would be determined from another. I have read that there are cherubim, seraphim, arch-angles etc. each having various qualities differing from one another. I believe all of these beings would be categorized as spiritual beings and even sons of God. I think all of them were generated at or near the same time – a very long time ago – and given differing responsibilities spanning various lengths of time and place.
It appears that some have been elevated at times while others are demoted. Even Lucifer was at one time a covering cherum (a rather high position), but he is no longer in that position nor does he continue to be known by that same name.
“going to Heaven” could mean several areas. I think there is evidence of at least 8 realms in Heaven and possibly even more, so one could be carried to varying realms for varying lengths of time. I actually believe that Enoch is in one of these as well as the Garden of Eden. Why else would there be cherubim with swords guarding the entrance to it if not? After Adam and Eve and all the animals were driven from Eden, cherubim with swords were set to guard the entry. I've never read that they have stopped guarding it.
One could be transported to one of the realms of Heaven for a short time and then return to earth. Some people think they only go there in vision but don't really go there physically. I don't know for sure, but it makes more sense to me that they actually go there. I've read a great deal of literature, which speaks of these type trips as being rather common. It does seem that most if not all of this type travel came to a halt after Messiah left us. He plans to return, however; and possibly we will someday be able to move about in many realms as well.
But my understanding of 'going to Heaven' is not that people are wafted off to Heaven at their death to stay there. At the end of Revelations, it appears that The Father will come here, so why would we wish our abode to be in Heaven for all time?
Reality
Nick, I'm not sure just yet how to add a PS so I'll try it this way and hope it works.Sorry I missed this part that I had intended to add, because you mentioned you had not seen anything saying we would go to Heaven.
“1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain to the coming of the Lord shall not precede them who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore, comfort one another with these words. “It seems to say the alive Saints would rise into the clouds along with the 1st resurrected Saints. There is no mention of just how long they would remain there, but putting other passages together with this, it is clear that they all return to the earth.
I expect the Garden of Eden, Enoch, and the Ark of the Covenant to re-appear on earth as well.
Reality
Hi reality,
But it does not say we go to heaven does it? We meet the Lord in the air. The Father dwells with his people on the new earth according to Revelation.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2005,01:48) Hi reality,
But it does not say we go to heaven does it? We meet the Lord in the air. The Father dwells with his people on the new earth according to Revelation.
Yes, Nick, but if “meet him in the air” doesn't mean Heaven, then how does that work. Do you invision that we might just kind of hover like a helicopter?There is a time span to consider and there appears to be a ceremony taking place and also immortality is bestowed. Could all that be handled just up in the air of the earth? I think a short-range missile could wreck havok in such a situation. If your agree that we could “meet him in the air” why is it so far-fetched that we could travel all the way to one of the Heavens?
Right, the Lord does dwell with his people on the new earth. I mentioned that already.
Reality
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2005,01:48) Hi R,
An interesting search is on where the tree of life is.
Hi Nick,This could also be like the search for the “Ark of the Covenant” which several have undertaken.
What jumps out at me is that The One Most High hid it and does not want us to have it. Why would anyone wish to thwart His wish and go to great lengths to locate it?
If the location of the tree of life is disclosed within Scripture and we could understand its meaning better by searching there, then I am all for that.
Reality
Quote (Reality @ Oct. 04 2005,02:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2005,01:48) Hi reality,
But it does not say we go to heaven does it? We meet the Lord in the air. The Father dwells with his people on the new earth according to Revelation.
Yes, Nick, but if “meet him in the air” doesn't mean Heaven, then how does that work. Do you invision that we might just kind of hover like a helicopter?There is a time span to consider and there appears to be a ceremony taking place and also immortality is bestowed. Could all that be handled just up in the air of the earth? I think a short-range missile could wreck havok in such a situation. If your agree that we could “meet him in the air” why is it so far-fetched that we could travel all the way to one of the Heavens?
Right, the Lord does dwell with his people on the new earth. I mentioned that already.
Reality
Hi reality,
I do not know and I do not presume but just share what is written. I do not think any more detail is available at the moment. But it never says we go to heaven.Quote (Reality @ Oct. 04 2005,02:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2005,01:48) Hi R,
An interesting search is on where the tree of life is.
Hi Nick,This could also be like the search for the “Ark of the Covenant” which several have undertaken.
What jumps out at me is that The One Most High hid it and does not want us to have it. Why would anyone wish to thwart His wish and go to great lengths to locate it?
If the location of the tree of life is disclosed within Scripture and we could understand its meaning better by searching there, then I am all for that.
Reality
Hi reality,
Many men love researching the bible as history,but believing it and the demands of God therin are less popular tasks.
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