Judgements

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Lets look closer at this subject.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
I am nailing my colours to the wall and saying the two judgements are the same. We are told in Hebrews 9.27 that
“..it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes JUDGEMENT”

Romans 14.10 tells us that all will stand before the Judgement seat of God. Yeshua will be sitting on that seat doing that work in his Father's name. Matthew 25 tells us he will be the Judge, as all judgement was given to him as he is Son of Man[Jn 5.22-27] The Great White Throne judgement does not specify the judge but since men are being judged then surely it is Yeshua.

Some seem confused as to the meaning of judgement as if it means only “condemnation” but surely it means a “trial” at which evidence is presented and both condemnation and salvation are possible outcomes. God is surely fair.Both judgements seem to have these qualities.

Both are judgements of works or deeds.The GWT judgement also involves the “book of life”. Since only those who have their name written there are those who inherit salvation it is another way of saying they are given salvation in the judgement. They are the sheep too.

Who can add or detract here?

If they are separate then either it must be shown that men must suffer two judgements or the judgements apply to separate groups who each are judged once surely?

[Is 1:18]

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31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.   34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’   37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’   40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’   41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’   44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’   45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’   46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Hi all,
Here is my take on the sheep and goat judgement. It's my understanding that this is not the great white throne judgement (GWTJ) but a judgement of those that survive the tribulation. Let me explain.

First of all, we know that it isnt the GWTJ because of the timing. Verse 31 tells us that this will be Jesus' first order of business “when he comes in glory”, i.e the second coming. The GWTJ will occur after the millennial reign (Rev 20). Therefore these two are distinct.

Also, we know that people will survive into the millenium, for two reasons (there may be many mre also):

1. There will still be birth and death during this time (see Isa 65: 20-24). But resurrection bodies are immortal and imperishable (1 Cor 15:53-55).

2. The earth will be repopulated (Isa 65:23) during the millenial period. Yet, resurrection bodies appear non-reproductive (Matt 22:30).

Therefore, there must also be regular people living on earth as well. They are those that survive the great tribulation (the last 3.5 yrs). And we know people will survive this time from Matt 24:22:

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22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

It seems to me that not everyone that survives the great tribulation will be eligable for living on the new earth. As you correctly point out NH judgement follows death, but I believe this is a reference to the GWTJ.

It was their works that decided their fate but I don't believe this has anything to do with salvation (they had not yet died remember). The NT is very clear in this regard, works can never save you – unless you keep the law perfectly that is!

ciao

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
You make some good points. But time, in the bible is not necessarily shown in the same way as reality. Often there is compression of events. So I would not be sure that there was not 1000yrs between

” But when the Son of Man comes in his glory,and all the angels with him”
and
” then he will sit on his glorious throne”

The other problem is that punishment is dealt out apparently immediately in Matt 25.41

Is it likely that this will already be happening while the millenial reign is taking place?

” Depart from me accursed ones into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”

BTW good to see you back

[Cubes]

I agree with both Is 1:18 and Nick's original post with some variances on both:

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Are you saying Moses and David and the men of old will not be in the first resurrection? I am sure they will be.Their names are in the book of life.

[Cubes]

Hi Nick,

No, I don't mean that. I only mentioned Daniel because of the specific word written of him.

A prayer of David: Psalm 17:15:

“As for me I shall see your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied when I awaken in your likeness.”

Only God and possibly Yeshua know for sure who would partake of the first resurrection, but we have been given some clues–and I should not be surprised to see Moses, Joshua, David, the Apostles including Paul, and a whole bunch of other people whose names we probably never heard throughout the ages.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes ,
If they are not there we won't be either!

[bic]

Actually, I think that Is 1:18 is correct in stating that there are two separate judgments. Here is my understanding of the events to take place:

Before the return of Jesus, distressing times will come upon the earth and it and the people on it will be shaken to the core. As scripture states in Matthew 24, Jesus' return will spare (from extinction) the human race upon earth. Notice that there will be a lot of evil or ungodly people (the goats) still alive at His return because scripture (Mt:24:30) says that they will MOURN when they see Him coming. Since it is at His return when the chosen (both dead and alive) are rewarded (to co-rule with Christ during the millenial reign), this will also be the time of the separation of the two camps: the goats on the left and the sheep on the right. It is implicit that the sheep (in immortal bodies) shall be ruling over the goats (in mortal bodies). This is also explicitly spelled out in many other passages. This is the time when the Law shall come forth out of Zion; when God shall teach mankind HOW to live; when God will restore nature back to its original condition. All animals will be vegetarians. There will no longer be mosquitoes, ticks, or thorns. No war, no shedding of blood, no disease. The sad and disturbing part of all this is that humankind will STILL reject paradise in the end, preferring darkness over the light.

At any rate, the first 'Judgment” will be the 1st resurrection, where the elect will be rewarded as rulers and judges among the heathen still living upon the earth. However, I believe that when God restores all things during this 1,000 year reign, he will also restore man's ability to live a thousand years (as before and in sync with the millenium). I believe that the rest of mortal humankind will be judged by their actions (works) DURING this reign, culminating in the GWTJ. I am not sure if many of those who lived in the distant past (before the time of Jesus) shall be resurrected back into mortal bodies to learn of God's ways or not but it could surely be a possibility. Perhaps even some who have lived since the time of Jesus but never got the chance to learn of Him.

As far as resurrection is concerned, ONLY Jesus has been resurrected so far. EVERYONE else, in their order, AT HIS COMING. This includes Daniel, David, Moses, Job, and even Elijah and Enoch. The images of Elijah and Moses appearing with Jesus on the mountain were only VISIONS. Though it appears as if Enoch did not see death, Hebrews 11:13 asserts that he did, in fact, die. Verses 39, 40 explain why. Though it appears that Elijah was taken up to the third heaven, he was really only taken up into the first heaven. He appears (in scripture) several years AFTER this event, proving that he was STILL very much alive and living on earth (though in a different place). The 'disembodied spirits' of the saints that were seen by many when Jesus gave up the ghost were merely signs (indicating He truly was the Son of God) like the full solar eclipse and the thunder and lightnings and the earthquake and the tearing of the veil in the temple. There is no reason to believe that these saints were resurrected at that time, thereby making scripture a lie. For jot upon jot, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, this cannot be true.

God is not a respecter of persons and will treat each of His chosen ones equally. Remember the parable of the workers where those who worked all day received the same wages as those who just worked a few hours? This same principle applies here. Refer back to Hebrews 11:39-40 and read it one more time.

Nick: You're right that judgment means a lot more than just condemnation. It, in fact, means JUSTICE.

Good posts, all.

[NickHassan]

Hmmm,
Needs some thought.In the meantime:
Hebrews 11.13 refers to those who had been given the promises dying before they received them. The promises were given to Abraham and his descendants. Enoch is an ancestor and not a descendant of Abraham so not included in the group under discussion. So Enoch did not see death as scripture plainly states in Heb11.5. There is no conflict here.

Likewise if scripture states in Matt 27.52 that
” and the graves were opened ;and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised ”
we ought to believe that too even if it does not fit with our theology surely?

[bic]

Yes, but their bodies being raised is no different than Lazarus' body being raised. There is no indication that they were given “glorified” eternal bodies and that they ascended to heaven. Jesus performed resurrections of bodies back to physical life. Who did He resurrect into ETERNAL LIFE? I say NO ONE YET, and I believe scripture confirms this.

As far as Enoch not being included in that group, I don't see that. Read the whole chapter again and tell me if you see some separation between pre-Abraham servants of God and post-Abraham servants. I don't think that you will find promises of eternal life given anywhere in the O.T. but yet it was implied in the coming kingdom of God when Messiah's rule would come forth out of Zion (Jerusalem). As God promised them, they will return to live in the PROMISED LAND (after their resurrection).

Now, it COULD be possible that God has reserved Enoch (in some kind of suspended animation) to bring him back to earth as one of the two witnesses, where he will finally die. But the second witness is not likely to be Elijah because he DOES DEFINITELY appear back on earth years after he was 'taken up' into heaven. My guess is that it would be Moses. These are the two seen in the vision on the mount (the Transfiguration). Although scripture says that Moses died, his death was a bit of a mystery. No body was ever found and scripture says that all of his vitality still remained. When faced with vague or cryptic verses, we must be careful in forming any definite conclusions. Hence, I give you “COULD”.

[Cubes]

Thanks, Bic, for your contribution. The good news is even if we don't understand the blueprint and itinerary to our resurrected lives with Yeshua, that still wouldn't affect our salvation and the great things the Father has laid in store for us. That is awesome, Nick.

[NickHassan]

Bic,

I agree with the statement about Lazarus.

Please re read my post. I do not ask you to agree with me but to give me some evidence of more serious consideration to the following;

There is no conflict in scripture.
Heb 11.5 appears to be in conflict, as you read it, with Heb 11.13.

But only if Heb 11.13 applies to all preceding verses in Heb 11. I believe it applies specifically to verses 8-11 for reasons shown.

As you know chapters were not part of these letters originally. So verse 13 could be applied to any previous verse in Hebrews just as easily.I believe we need to assess the correct context always.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
The word eternal relating to the Jewish people only occurs in Eccles 12.5 “Man goes to his eternal home”
But the word “everlasting ” is very frequently used especially with regard to the “everlasting covenant” promise made to Abraham as expounded in Exodus 32.13
“..I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants and they shall INHERIT it FOREVER”

That is why the Jews asked Jesus several what they must do to INHERIT the kingdom. That is also why the answer given applies to the Jews and not the gentiles. Only to the rich young man did he give our message of salvation.

So those who inherit the promise, and that includes us, as Jesus fulfilled the requirements perfectly and we who are in him also do so, are in the first resurrection.

What of those who lived before the promise was given, such as Enoch?Hebrews 11 certainly expresses God's complete approval of them in faith terms so they also will be in the first resurrection.

The second resurrection surely is only a second chance judgement for those who have not met the specified requirements and are reliant on the mercy of God according to their works?

[NickHassan]

Hi bic.

I need some clarification.

You seem to be saying the sheep and goats are already separated before the second resurrection? You mean the S+G judgement is at the start of the millenium? Then you are saying after the millenium there is the second resurrection and the GWT judgement?

The sheep in the S+G judgement are obviously not you and I would you agree unless that is how you are hoping to be saved?

[bic]

Hi, Nick. In response to the seeming contradiction between Hebrews 11:5 and 11:13, there could be another answer other than the one you propose. Scripture does not say that Enoch did not die only that he did not SEE death. It says that Enoch was “no more” and that God “took him”. It also gives the number of his days as 365 years: Gen:5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:. It is interesting to note that this is the number of days in a year and that Enoch was the seventh in line from Adam.

More important, however, is that nowhere in scripture is it mentioned that Enoch was taken to heaven alive or given an eternal body. This kind of thinking came about after the Babylonian captivity of Judah. Yet, it was the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism, a religion which paralleled ours in very many ways, that introduced false beliefs and doctrines into the Jewish faith. The idea of immediately going to heaven or hell after death, for example, is one such belief that was carried back when Cyrus let the Jews return. Paradise, the intermediate waiting place between death and resurrection, was another concept (and word) borrowed from 'Z'. If you will remember, the Medes/Persian empire conquered Babylonia during the exile. Zoroaster was the Greek name for the Iranian (Persian) prophet Zarathustra. The way that these 'Z' beliefs crept into Judaism was through the new Persian converts that joined the Jews in returning to the Holy Land. This is EXACTLY why God had forbidden the Jewish people from taking foreign wives (because they would begin to worship 'strange' gods). See Esther 8:17.

At any rate, the language surrounding the fate of Enoch is very terse in scripture and we have to treat it very carefully. For example, if we look for other areas in the Bible where the word “took” is used, we find that, in many such instances, death is the outcome. The phrase “was no more” indicates death in at least a couple of other places in scripture.

There is not enough scripture to presuppose that Enoch was indeed translated up into heaven. I used to believe this way and told many of how Enoch HAD to come back (because of Hebrews 9:27) as one of the two witnesses. I was also certain that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist. Now, I doubt that either of these beliefs were correct.

The ONE thing that prevents me from giving any serious consideration to these beliefs is the PREEMINENCE of Jesus Christ. How could any mortal human being (no matter how holy) PRECEDE our Lord and Savior to heaven? Furthermore, if Jesus Himself stated that NO ONE has ascended to heaven but Himself, how could I doubt it? No, I must find another meaning in these verses than what it seems obvious. I leave this discussion with a verse which seems to (for once and for all) settle this debate:

1 Cor:15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

The good news is even if we don't understand the blueprint and itinerary to our resurrected lives with Yeshua, that still wouldn't affect our salvation and the great things the Father has laid in store for us.

Amen to that, Cubes, and thank you for reminding us of what's really important. Though it may be fun and even enlightening to debate things not so clearly seen, we should never let these pursuits detract us from our 'duty' (yea, but rather our desire) to glorify Him in ALL things and in ALL things PRAISE Him for the love that He has shown us through His word/Word. If we truly KNOW Him, do we need to know anything else? His grace is sufficient for me.

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You seem to be saying the sheep and goats are already separated before the second resurrection?

Revelation 20:4-6 seems pretty explicit to me. There is a FIRST resurrection and at least one more. Matthew 25:31-32 is not nearly so explicit and there could be a thousand year span between the Son of man coming in glory in verse 31 and the gathering of nations and the separation of the sheep and goats of verse 32. However, since those of the 1st resurrection will rule with Christ, they MUST be resurrected at His coming, as in Matt:24:31 (and many others). Therefore, some kind of separation is implied. Whether this could be called a judgment (as in punishment), I don't know.

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You mean the S+G judgement is at the start of the millenium?

Only the separation of the elect from all the rest. The judgment may commence at His return and be completed at the end of the thousand years. Can it be that SOME will be cast into the lake of fire BEFORE the second resurrection? I don't know, someone else will have to tell me.

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Then you are saying after the millenium there is the second resurrection and the GWT judgement?

That part seems to be clear, yes.

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The sheep in the S+G judgement are obviously not you and I would you agree unless that is how you are hoping to be saved?

While it may not be either you or me, I think these sheep are the chosen or elect of God who will reign with Christ at His coming. I think that this is the “small flock”, which inludes those select few such as the 144,000 (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes) and the 12 chosen to rule over each of these (perhaps like generals over lesser ranked 'officers'). Are these 12 the original apostles with the exception of Judas being replaced by another? If we look back at the inheritance of the original 12 tribes of Israel, a replacement took place there, as well. Notice how the list in Revelation 7 is different from that in Genesis 49; Dan is replaced by Manasses (a son of Joseph). Revelation 20:4 seems to list a select group. I don't know what all this means. God surely had a reason for including all of this in scripture. Perhaps, in time, it will all become clear.

How am I hoping to be saved? By the wonderful grace of God. Without His mercy, I don't stand a chance. Praise God for His never-ending mercy!

[NickHassan]

Thank you bic,
A very thoughtful post and I agree very largely with what you say.

[NickHassan]

OK bic,
We know from scripture that Elijah was taken to heaven.The relevance of a later letter does not prove that he was still alive. Certainly his Gifting of the Spirit passed to Elisha-does it seem likely he was retired from active service? Not to me.
Enoch did not “SEE DEATH”. I cannot see that any other way than “DIED”.

Could it be that the principle God used was

“It is not good for man to be alone”

Two to share this unique blessing?

[NickHassan]

Hi bic,
The separation of the sheep and goats in the millenium is only relevant if you think the two judgements are different and the S+G is at the start of the millenium. I do not think that either of these things is true. If one is found to be inelegible for the first resurrection at the return of Christ into the millenium sabbath day[1000yrs]despite the earnest pleadings of Paul in Heb 4 it does not mean all is lost.
There is still the second resurrection when ALL the nations are resurrected to stand before the throne of Judgement[GWT=S+G] and more sheep found for eternity.That is how I see it anyway.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
There is only one general judgement shown in Matt 25.
There is only one general judgement shown in Rev 20.

If there are two judgements that are different then surely they both should be shown in both places?

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