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seminarian wrote:
Quote I asked Adam from the Pasture… . Interesting personal insult. Is this part of your gospel?
seminarian wrote:
Quote More false teachings from an even more false prophet. They are so delusional that they don't want anyone to see thier leader's death certificate. Do you know why? Dr. Paul Wierwille taught that if you believe you will be healed and if you aren't it's because YOU didn't have enough faith. (Tell that to Timothy who was told by Paul to take a little wine for his stomach and frequest illnesses. (1 Tim 5:23) Wierwille's death certificate shows he had cancer of the eye which metasticized to other vital organs. He wore an eyepatch for some time but would not tell anyone he was sick. He wasn't even 70 years old but his followers will not admit that he could not heal himself as he taught others to do. Doesn't matter that he was a false prophet. These people still worship him to this day.
Here you go folks. Evidence of another mind controlling cult who has to cut and paste their group's twist on the scriptures because they are not allowed to think for themselves. Seen it before. Not impressed.
As far as I know, neither Adam Pastor nor Ramblin Rose mentioned Paul Wierwille, nor did they claim him as their leader. So why are you attempting to slander their beliefs by falsely attributing their doctrines to a questionable man? Is this another part of your gospel: bearing false witness?
I have similar beliefs to Adam Pastor and Ramblin Rose, and I haven't the foggiest idea who Paul Wierwille is. Rather, I arrived at my current understanding of Messiah, (i.e. that his literal existence did not begin until he was born of a woman), by looking at the whole counsel of scripture. I do not believe that a “Senior God, Junior God existing together in the beginning” view of scripture is compatible with the whole counsel of the word.
seminarian wrote:
Quote “If Jesus didn't exist with Jehovah before He was begotten then what was He speaking of in Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was”. I never got an answer. Only goofy links and a cut and paste article like Ramblin Rose did. Do you know why? Because there is no glory in foreknowlegde. There is also no being in God's presence in foreknowledge. Our Lord could have sinned and they agree with that, however then they say Christ was referring to his “prophetic exaltation” stated in the Old Testament. Yeah right.
Here's another verse they can not explain:
“Jesus being aware that the Father has given all into his hands and that He came out from God and is going away to God.” [John 13:3] Sorry again but I did not “come out” from God by the mere fact I was in His foreknowledge.
Great. Since you understand these verses from the gospel of John so clearly, perhaps you can explain this passage to me, without referring to the whole counsel of scripture as your guide:
John 6
Quote 51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”So, do you eat Messiah's flesh and drink his blood? If not, why not? Bear in mind, the obvious meaning of this passage, as evidenced in verse 52, is a literal eating and drinking of Messiah's flesh and blood. There is nothing in this passage that points to a figurative meaning. So, according to your own methods, you can read this passage as literally as you have interpreted John 13:3 and John 17:5.
Or you can heed Messiah's own words in John 16:25*, and then place these verses within the context of the whole counsel of scripture. Your choice. Have fun!
(*John 16:25 reads in part, “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language… .”)
WhatisTrue?,
Neither RR or Adam DENIED adhering to Dr. Paul Wierwille's teachings when confronted did they? So why
are you speaking for them? Let them speak for themselves. Let them complain if they don't like what I say.
I happen to KNOW Sir Anthony Buzzard and he knew and agreed with most of Weirwille's work.Also, you are WAY off the topic regarding the literality of John 16:25 which I never brought up, discussed nor is it germain to the scriptures cited below. This is simply another diversion from the original question which neither RR or Adam wish to answer using the Bible, (sorry but other people's articles and links don't count). Here it is again for YOU this time:
Jesus Christ our Lord Said:
“And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU before the world began.”
[John 17:5]
The premise was, according to Adam & RR, that Christ's existance BEGAN in the womb of Mary at conception. That Christ only existed in God's foreknowledge JUST LIKE WE DID. Now read the scripture above and tell me how does someone have glory and presence with God in “foreknowledge”? I know I didn't. They agree Christ could have sinned so until he shouted, “It is Finished”, the whole thing was up for grabs. So the statement that Christ was looking back to the prophetic words about himself in the OT just doesn't hold water.
Read my original posts regarding THIS subject and answer that please OR be like Adam and RR and not give a direct answer at all.
Thanks!
Semmy
Seminarian,
You miss my point. My understanding of John 17:5 is similar to my understanding of John 6:51-60. Neither passage is strictly literal in meaning.
In other words, your question is based on a false premise. Your question is the equivalent of me asking you:
Now read John 6:51-60 and tell me how does someone receive eternal life without literally eating Messiah's flesh and drinking his blood? Messiah, here, clearly says that you can't!
So, forgive my stubborness, but I will only grant you two options here.
1. You can answer my question above directly, (false premise and all), and I will answer your question, (with its false premise), directly.
– Or –
2. You can answer the following question for yourself, and thereby gain insight into why I don't accept your intepretation of John 17:5.
Do you take John 6:51-60 literally? If not, why not?
Your choice.
Thanks!
Seminarian
Seminarian
Quote Neither RR or Adam DENIED adhering to Dr. Paul Wierwille's teachings when confronted did they? I have no idea who Paul Wierwille is.
You HAVE accused me falsely.
If I post a comment and it happens to be similar to that of some ‘cult or cult leader’ that you are familiar with, am I going to have to defend myself each time? Will I be accused of being a part of that ‘cult’ each time? How can that be fair?
I thought this was a discussion board. People come here to discuss a subject and offer material for the discussion. They may not agree on points being made in the discussion but I never understood that to mean that they were to be insulted and falsely accused.
Personally I think it is too hard trying to explain away all the scriptures that talk of Christ, before coming in the flesh. The theory that Jesus is a creature who was created 2000 or so years ago, is like a boat with many holes in it. You can say this hole is patched up and this one too, but there are just too many and it looks like a ship that will sink.
This one here (as discussed) is a gaping hole in the theory that Jesus didn't come in the flesh.
“And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU before the world began.”
You can try and fill that one up and explain it away, but all I can see is a patch job. Then there are all the other scriptures that need patching.
In the end you have a boat with all these patches and then you expect it to float. Sure it may even float for a while, but the patches are weaknesses in the structure and they will give way.
But the boat should float on it's own. It shouldn't need patches to make it float.Letting scripture speak for itself is better than speaking for scripture is it not?
The whole counsel of scripture is a tight ship, not a patched up old trawler.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ July 12 2006,22:57) Seminarian Seminarian
Quote Neither RR or Adam DENIED adhering to Dr. Paul Wierwille's teachings when confronted did they? I have no idea who Paul Wierwille is.
You HAVE accused me falsely.
If I post a comment and it happens to be similar to that of some ‘cult or cult leader’ that you are familiar with, am I going to have to defend myself each time? Will I be accused of being a part of that ‘cult’ each time? How can that be fair?
I thought this was a discussion board. People come here to discuss a subject and offer material for the discussion. They may not agree on points being made in the discussion but I never understood that to mean that they were to be insulted and falsely accused.
DITTO!!Before I found or rather was directed here. The Lord had me in John 1:1 and Genesis. At the time I didn't know why. I knew that some how the word was Jesus. And that God spoke things into existance. The posts written here have broght back to remembrance the very deep thoughts I had and now because of the posts have added too. I offer these thoughts, for as it were your thought.
Cubes brought to my attention that we don't work as a team or the body. I am in particular most guilty and for this I apologize.
Instead of trying to force our Idea to be correct let us clear the slate and consider the subject with everyones view. Readily accepting someones Idea as making more scriptural sense than our own and achieving OUR goal of the truth with much prayer.
Please consider the following and express any Idea that you might have, with much prayer:
In the beginning [of His Plan] was the Word (John 1:1). In the beginning before I wrote this I knew what I was going to write.
Jehovah's word was with Him and was Him. The words I wrote were my words and was part of me (in my thoughts).God speaks things into existance: Genesis chapter 1 and Rom 4:17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and ” calleth the things that are not, as though they were”.
The first thing from God was His thoughts NOT HIS WORDS. Before anything (of this plan) their were God's thought. That thought became the word that became flesh and dewlt among us (John 1:14). That flesh was the only flesh spoken into existance (using Mary). Adam was not spoken into existance he was formed from the earth.Rom 8:29 Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers [and sisters].
Before the word, Jesus was the thought in Jehovah's mind. Jehovah's thought for the word was to become His Son. Jesus came FROM Jehovah. Again Adam was formed from the earth and did not come from Jehovah. Jehovah used what He formed (Adam-Mary) to complete His thought of His Son (the Son of man). We did not come from Jehovah as Jesus did. We came from Adam who was formed.
Jesus the first born among many brethern. Being born again means taking on the nature of Jehovah as Jesus did. The born again are Jesus' brethern.
Rom 8:30 Now whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified [or, declared righteous]; but whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Notice these He didn't know before they were predestined. These are those who came from Adam, those formed. Like Adam, you and I were not spoken into existance we were still a thought in Jehovah's mind much like they are thoughts in my mind before I physically punch the keys to make the letters.
So we were predestined to become flesh and to become born again. Our mind as it were a planting ground for the word of God to create His children. Whom did He call? Everyone! Many are called but few are chosen. This is why we have free will. Everyone is called anyone who accepts Christ has been chosen. The harvest is plentiful but the labours are few. In these last days it doesn't seem that the harvest is plentiful rather the completion of the plan draws nigh (1 Tim. 4).The Question is why would Jesus want to go back and be a thought in Jehovah's mind. With the thought Jehovah creates. All things were created through Jesus. That would make Jesus the Power of Jehovah before He became the Word.
The very thought of God:
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Col 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Sorry Whatistrue but MY question proceeds yours.
Answer mine first as that is the topic of the question I FIRST POSED
regarding John 17:5 and not the other that you are trying to
insert and deflect attention to.It is only YOUR personal assumption that the scripture below is figurative
and not literal. You've provided no Biblical proof that it is meant to say
anything other that what it does. So let's stick with the subject. Once more:Jesus Christ our Lord Said:
“And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU before the world began.”
[John 17:5]
The premise was, according to Adam & RR, that Christ's existance BEGAN in the womb of Mary at conception. That Christ only existed in God's foreknowledge JUST LIKE WE DID. Now read the scripture above and tell me how does someone have glory and presence with God in “foreknowledge”? I know I didn't. They agree Christ could have sinned so until he shouted, “It is Finished”, the whole thing was up for grabs. So the statement that Christ was looking back to the prophetic words about himself in the OT just doesn't hold water.
In fact, the explanation given by Adam & RR assumed a literal interpretation because they said he was looking back to the prophetic words about himself in the OT. Either way they are saying IT HAPPENED. That's why your should let them answer for themselves or at least thoroughly read what they originally posted.
Adam & RR, forgive me if in fact I have wrongly accused you of knowing Dr. Paul Wierwille however, this is the false prophet who came up with this nonsense as he preceded Buzzard. I know Sir Anthony Buzzard and he quoted much of Wierwille's work and Buzzard's information is still used by the Way International to this day. They were colleagues.
Now, is anyone going to answer my question on John 17:5 without using someone else's articles, weblinks or trying to switch the topic scripture? Your lack of an answer is in fact your
answer. None.
Be blessed,
Semmy
seminarian wrote:
Quote Sorry Whatistrue but MY question proceeds yours. Answer mine first as that is the topic of the question I FIRST POSED
regarding John 17:5 and not the other that you are trying to
insert and deflect attention to.Fair enough. I presume then that you are going with option #1 in my last post which was:
Quote Now read John 6:51-60 and tell me how does someone receive eternal life without literally eating Messiah's flesh and drinking his blood? Messiah, here, clearly says that you can't! So, forgive my stubborness, but I will only grant you two options here.
1. You can answer my question above directly, (false premise and all), and I will answer your question, (with its false premise), directly.
– Or –
2. You can answer the following question for yourself, and thereby gain insight into why I don't accept your intepretation of John 17:5.
Do you take John 6:51-60 literally? If not, why not?
Your question:
Quote Now read the scripture above and tell me how does someone have glory and presence with God in “foreknowledge”? The verse (from Young's Literal Translation):
Quote And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee Answer:
Quote Jeremiah 1:5
“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”This was said to the prophet Jeremiah about his ministry. I don't think that it is a stretch to say that the Messiah could make a greater claim than this, and, in fact, did in John 17:5. The Messiah has always been the centerpiece of YHWH's plan and therefore had a special place in YHWH's heart and mind even before he was born. John 17:5 is about the Messiah asking for the glory that was ordained him from the beginning.
OK. Now it's your turn. Here's your question:
Quote Now read John 6:51-60 and tell me how does someone receive eternal life without literally eating Messiah's flesh and drinking his blood? Messiah, here, clearly says that you can't! Thanks!
Joh 6:62 What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: “the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life”.
What if you see the “Son of man” ascending where He was before?
Not see me where I was before but “ascending” (going up, on the way to) where He was before.
…”the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life”. It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: Jesus was not speaking of His literal flesh and blood.Jeremiah 1:5
“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”So Jeremiah was a thought in Jevovah's mind just as Jesus was? Are you saying that Jeremiah preceded from the Father before Jesus? That cannot be that would make Jeremiah a begotten son of Jehovah and BEFORE Jesus. Jehovah did form Jesus in the womb of Mary didn't He? Would it not be possible that Jehovah is saying that “He formed” meaning from Adam? He knew even then that from Adam would come Jeremiah. Jehovah planned all the prophets but none were begotten only Jesus was begotten.
Rom 8:29 Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers [and sisters].
Rom 8:30 Now whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified [or, declared righteous]; but whom He justified, these He also glorified.
The only way for Jeremiah to have been formed literally from Jehovah is that Jesus and all the prophets were spirit beings in heaven. That way Jesus still would be first.
There was always scripture that bothered me about John the baptist.
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No.Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye are willing to receive it, this is Elijah, that is to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.John the Baptist didn't know that he was Elijah. John the baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.
Jesus said He that hath ears let him hear.Jesus one way or another existed before he was begotten. Either as the thought, foreknowledge or a spirit being or __ what?
If ya realized that Jesus is God, you would begin to realize a lot more. He is 100% God and 100% man. I am not going to argue this point with anyone, but it is relavent(not sure if that is spelled correctly). And in many other versions it says I AM, not just I was. Making Reference to Exodus. Jesus Himself is not created, He always was, is , and will always be.
Unfortunately not all Bibles are the same, they are all translated differently. Some are more literal than others, some are more historical than others(they take you back to where the passage was said, to get a geographical location), and some are easier to understand. Unfortunetely they are all just about right. The difference in translations comes down to the Diety of Christ. Was Jesus God, or just another great prophet man? My bible says He is God, and there is basically only one translation, that I know of, that says otherwise. That is the NWT. All other translations state Jesus is 100% God/100% man.
Read Jeremiah 10 and ask yourself whom he is talking about. You would be keen to find out that he is talking about The image of the invisible God and noone has seen God, no not one. Except Jesus Christ. Now remember that Jesus was also a man, but he was diety.
Now you say that Jesus was not God, but how can the fullness of God(which is eternal) be in a mere man? It doesn't jive. OPEN YOUR EYES AND STOP BEING BLIND TO THE EVIDENT TRUTH!Hi OneoftheLordsGenerals.
Jesus Christ is the Messiah and the son of God.
Jesus has divine nature and he emptied himself of his former glory and came in the flesh. He then returned to God and is seated at his right hand.If God was your father you would believe that Jesus came from God. You should also understand that he is seated at God's right hand side.
Quote (kenrch @ July 13 2006,18:37) Joh 6:62 What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: “the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life”.
What if you see the “Son of man” ascending where He was before?
Not see me where I was before but “ascending” (going up, on the way to) where He was before.
…”the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life”. It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: Jesus was not speaking of His literal flesh and blood.Jeremiah 1:5
“ Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”So Jeremiah was a thought in Jevovah's mind just as Jesus was? Are you saying that Jeremiah preceded from the Father before Jesus? That cannot be that would make Jeremiah a begotten son of Jehovah and BEFORE Jesus. Jehovah did form Jesus in the womb of Mary didn't He? Would it not be possible that Jehovah is saying that “He formed” meaning from Adam? He knew even then that from Adam would come Jeremiah. Jehovah planned all the prophets but none were begotten only Jesus was begotten.
Rom 8:29 Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers [and sisters].
Rom 8:30 Now whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified [or, declared righteous]; but whom He justified, these He also glorified.
The only way for Jeremiah to have been formed literally from Jehovah is that Jesus and all the prophets were spirit beings in heaven. That way Jesus still would be first.
There was always scripture that bothered me about John the baptist.
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No.Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye are willing to receive it, this is Elijah, that is to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.John the Baptist didn't know that he was Elijah. John the baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.
Jesus said He that hath ears let him hear.Jesus one way or another existed before he was begotten. Either as the thought, foreknowledge or a spirit being or __ what?
Genesis 3:14-15 (WEB)
Yahweh God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above every animal of the field. On your belly shall you go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”Good point kenrch.
To the others:
This topic was so encoruaging until the name calling at the 4th or 5th page. Why don't you start focusing on God's Word again instead of how evil everyone is? Bickering only helps one side; guess which one it is?Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ July 14 2006,15:36) If ya realized that Jesus is God, you would begin to realize a lot more. He is 100% God and 100% man. I am not going to argue this point with anyone, but it is relavent(not sure if that is spelled correctly). And in many other versions it says I AM, not just I was. Making Reference to Exodus. Jesus Himself is not created, He always was, is , and will always be.
Unfortunately not all Bibles are the same, they are all translated differently. Some are more literal than others, some are more historical than others(they take you back to where the passage was said, to get a geographical location), and some are easier to understand. Unfortunetely they are all just about right. The difference in translations comes down to the Diety of Christ. Was Jesus God, or just another great prophet man? My bible says He is God, and there is basically only one translation, that I know of, that says otherwise. That is the NWT. All other translations state Jesus is 100% God/100% man.
Read Jeremiah 10 and ask yourself whom he is talking about. You would be keen to find out that he is talking about The image of the invisible God and noone has seen God, no not one. Except Jesus Christ. Now remember that Jesus was also a man, but he was diety.
Now you say that Jesus was not God, but how can the fullness of God(which is eternal) be in a mere man? It doesn't jive. OPEN YOUR EYES AND STOP BEING BLIND TO THE EVIDENT TRUTH!
Hi ootlg,
Is Jesus really the Son of God?
Or is he God Himself?
Is he the image of God?
Or is he that God of which he is the image?
Has he seen God?
How could he if he is that God he has seen?He says he has a God in Jn 20.17.
Does God have a God?Quote (Adam Pastor @ July 06 2006,05:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2006,23:09) Hi,
Correct me if I am wrong but as I understand it RR does not believe the Word was in the beginning with God, but is of the doctrinal stance that he only came to be in the womb of Mary, and this belief is also shown in the quoted scholars words.
Such doctrine is falsehood in my opinion.
NO! RR's stance is that Jesus, the Son of GOD came to be in existence in the womb of Mary.GOD's word became flesh resulting in the conception of Jesus the Messiah.
Before his conception, (just like every other human being,) Jesus the Messiah did not literally exist.
That is RR's stance.
Yes I am aware of that RR believes that Jesus was created 2000 or so years ago, but my question was “does she read 'the Word was WITH God' as the “Word was IN God”, or the “Word was an attribute of God”. That was the question.I don't have time to read the links she provides. Just wanted to cut to the chase so to speak.
Quote (seminarian @ July 04 2006,11:02) Here, here Nick & T8!!! The point is as T8 saw, you can not be the ORIGINAL and the image at the same time. Image means copy or even reflection that mirrors the original. Guys, I'm more and more convinced every day that the trinity is Satan's biggest lie and the deception is so blinding that people will need to be delivered from it.
Satan knows he can't get Christians to consciously worship him. So what's the NEXT best thing? Yeah, get people to worship Jesus as God to the exclusion of the Father! Don't get me wrong. Christ is worthy of our worship or proskeuno. This means he is worthy (from old English worthescripe), as God's exalted Son. However even Christ says that true worshippers will worship the Father.
So many scriptures call God the GOd and Father of Jesus, that it isn't funny, but then I have heard Christians many call Jesus Father or Lord God!
God has left the building as far as they are concerned and they WANT to worship Jesus exclusively.
Wrong. Also notice we don't hate them for their beliefs, (pity is a more appropriate word I think), but they will rail violently against us when we say Jesus is not God the Father in human flesh and cite scriptural proof. This has GOT to be Satan rising up in them to extinguish the truth when it is spoken. Why else were so many unitarians, Arians, etc put to death by the RCC? Makes you think.Some of the pastors at the church I serve were trying to get me to say that Jesus is God but I told them what the Bible says, especially what Jesus said in quoted Psalms, “Ye are gods,” scripture. He is God as displacer and disposer. Anyone whom the Father gives such an office is a God! However, he never was or will be his own Father but subject to him. (1 Cor 15:28)
Once again, this is the biggest deception going folks.
Semmy
Hi,
Satan controls the minds of unbelievers. They do whatever he commands. His kingdom has been remarkably successful as it is well organised.Mt 12
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Here is my understanding of Jesus’ “pre-existence”
I will start with the word, Logos, as in John 1.
First of all, logos can be translated several different ways:
NT:3056
NT:3056 logos (log'-os); from NT:3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):
Here are examples of what logos is translated as in the KJV:
KJV – account, cause, communication, concerning, doctrine, fame, have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, speaker, speech, talk, thing, none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
OK, so I bolded “cause” “intent” and “matter”
Look at it this way:
John 1:1-13
1:1 In the beginning was the [intent], and the [intent] was with God, and the [intent] was God. 2 [it] was with God in the beginning. [the GK has no article. Literally, it says, “the same was with God in the beginning”- applying no person or gender]Does your intent make up who you are?
Moreover, what is YHWH? Do the scriptures say that He is love? Is love His intent? His word?John 1 echoes another passage of scripture with the same first three words:
Gen 1:1
1:1 In the beginning God
NIVMy view is that Genesis gives us a picture of creation, and John gives further insight on the intent of creation. The whole purpose of creation is salvation. It was in the mind and heart of our Father before it all started. His intent [logos, word] was with Him and His intent was Him. It was with Him in the beginning.
Now Jesus is the firstborn over all creation. How does this fit? Wasn’t Adam the first man?
Do you think that God did not know that Adam and Eve would sin? Did He overlook something? Did He make a mistake? What was God’s intent for Adam- for mankind? How did Adam live before the fall? What was their relationship like?
Well, first of all, there was no sin- nothing to separate them. Their relationship was absolutely perfect love and obedience. Perfect fellowship between God and man- that was our Father’s intent. However, this love was not very deep- nothing had tested it yet. At the first presentation of God’s will vs. his will, Adam chose his will. He chose selfishness over love for God. This is what temptation does- it exposes our hearts. When it gives birth to sin, sin gives birth to death. There you have it. When you sin, you are as good as dead and you need resurrection. You need salvation in order to be with your Father again.
Did YHWH give Adam this wonderful opportunity even though He knew that Adam would fall? YES! Did Adam have everything he needed to overcome the temptation and not sin? YES! Did YHWH let him sin anyway? YES! Did Adam have free will? YES Can you love without free will? NO! [Love must be a choice or it is not love. It would be control and manipulation. That is not our Father]
So now, there is sin in the world, forcing us to make a knowledgeable choice between sin, selfishness, and love.
OK- so why is Jesus the firstborn over all creation again? Why is everything made by Him and for Him?
He was the first one to fulfill the logos[ intent]. He was the logos personified: a living, tangible man- the second Adam. Everything was made through him. He was the intent, and everything was made through the intent. He was in the heart and mind of God while God was creating. He did not physically create the world, God did [Gen 1:1]. But the world was made through the intent- for the intent. He was the intent manifested. He lived out the intent- fulfilled the intent. That is why He is the way, the truth and the life. We have to go through Him to the Father. We have to go the way that He did- put to death our flesh and die to ourselves so that our Father can raise us up- alive to Him= restored relationship=salvation= the intent.
There is so much to say about this and I know that I have left a long message, but in comparison to the topic, it is so brief.
John 8:52-9:1
52 At this the Jews exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
[You see, Abraham was a foreshadow of Messiah [like the Passover lamb was]. He was the first man to walk by faith- trusting only in YHWH and obeying Him. That was credited to him as righteousness. Abraham was the first Hebrew- [called out of Babylon… ring a bell?]. No one had gone before him- he probably did not understand who this YHWH was and what He wanted to do with him- but he obeyed. What was Abraham’s purpose? It was all leading up to Jesus… leading up to salvation. That is why He says, “Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”]
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. [John 1:5: The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.]
NIV
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