John 8:58

[NickHassan]

Hi S and W,
And remember God's word never returns to Him void.
Paul never spoke without at least one turning to the Lord and some will grasp onto the hope they see in you to go searching for themselves and find safety.
You may not see that fruit instantly but you are planting seeds of truth that will bring life so do it confidently because in showing the Word you are speaking the words of God.

[seminarian]

Woulaw, you are absolutely right.

That's why I pointed out in my posts that the pastors saying this crack pot stuff have advanced
seminary degrees. It obviously hasn't helped them! My 80 year old grandmother knew
who Jesus was and NEVER set foot in a seminary! People get puffed up in their minds
and begin to believe that THEY can't ever be wrong about a scripture or doctrine.
Yeah right.

No, my seminary studies have very little theology as I am already functioning as clergy at this
point. The classes I will be taking are for grief counseling, chaplaincy, church adminstration,
and pastoral confidentiality, etc. I am studying the nuts and bolts of operating a ministry.
It is an ecumenical program which means it is non-denominational. That cuts out a lot of
extra course work because I am not studying the history and development of any particular
denomination.

I hung around with people TOO long that TOLD me what I had to believe, (them) and
now I am a voracious student of the Bible. God saw my heart and said He still wants
to use me for His glory. I'm there!

What I've found is the classes I've taken with the JW's and even those I am helping
with at the church are so elementary. They also twist things to fit their own
agenda which I hate. I've actually learned more talking to YOU guys here than
most of the classes offered at the church! God's holy spirit is upon us and is
teaching us all things. We don't need to attend a seminary for that.

I'm going because it will help me to organize my ministry better. I also need to be
ordained in order to perform weddings and do counseling as these are legal requirements
in my state. I should have my legal license to preach by the end of this summer which
allows me to officiate as any other pastor until I graduate from my studies.

Thanks!

Semmy

[Cubes]

Quote (Woutlaw @ July 05 2006,00:54)

Another thing I would like to share with you is don't get caught up in the thought that one has to go to seminary to understand God's word. Nor do you have to be an “ordained” minister to be used by God. I've heard many say that you have to be taught by man or go to seminary to understand God's word. Hog wash. My biblical knowledge is on a kindergarden level, yet God has used me to refute the lies and deception of deacons, elders, and those holding doctorate degrees in theology. Many parade around with their degrees in theology with pride. We must never forget that God isn't a respector of persons. To understand God's word all we need is a bible, a humble heart that yearns for truth, and a good set of knees to pray on. Just my thoughts

Hi Woutlaw:

Great OP, and a high five to all.

[seminarian]

Very true Nick,

I always think of how I am going to face my Father when I hit my knees knowing I DIDN'T
speak out when I should have. I know I've made many people think at the
church I serve. Some can't understand how God is blessing my ministry even though
I don't believe in any holy trinity!

One of the secrets is that I am always encouraging
others. I don't compete with the other pastors. I
just go about doing what God has called me to do.

However, I'm my own person and nobody is going
to tell me what to believe, especially if it isn't in the
Bible. We just keep speaking the word and it is God
who makes the seeds grow in the hearts of men.

Thanks,

S

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2006,01:11)

Hi S and W, And remember God's word never returns to Him void. Paul never spoke without at least one turning to the Lord and some will grasp onto the hope they see in you to go searching for themselves and find safety. You may not see that fruit instantly but you are planting seeds of truth that will bring life so do it confidently because in showing the Word you are speaking the words of God.

Amen!

[seminarian]

Right CUbes!

“Hosanna to the Son of David. Hosanna to the Son of God.
Need we say more?”

Sometimes we've got to leave the chief priests and scribes in the city and go lodge in Bethany where friends and brethren can be found!

Yeah Cubes,

Even nursing infants knew who Jesus was! Hosanna is translated as “Save Us!”
Thats right. The chief priests and scribes with all their knowledge of scripture
were blind to seeing who Jesus really was. The were expecting a powerful king.

Aren't trinitarians saying the most powerful God the Father has come down and
become a man? Its really the same thing. They both have the wrong Jesus!

Good post,

S

[NickHassan]

Hi S,
2Cor 114
“For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached..”
The One we preach is the Son of God as Lord, the Messiah, the Christ according to the flesh[Rom 9.5], the glorious vessel for the More Glorious yet treasure [2Cor 4] of of the Spirit of God revealing Himself to men.
“For God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” [2Cor 5.19]
And now
“..so that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God' [Eph 3.19]
indeed
“For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do”[Phil 2.13]

[Woutlaw]

Quote (seminarian @ July 04 2006,20:20)

Woulaw, you are absolutely right. That's why I pointed out in my posts that the pastors saying this crack pot stuff have advanced seminary degrees.  It obviously hasn't helped them!  My 80 year old grandmother knew who Jesus was and NEVER set foot in a seminary!  People get puffed up in their minds and begin to believe that THEY can't ever be wrong about a scripture or doctrine. Yeah right. No, my seminary studies have very little theology as I am already functioning as clergy at this point.  The classes I will be taking are for grief counseling, chaplaincy, church adminstration, and pastoral confidentiality, etc.  I am studying the nuts and bolts of operating a ministry. It is an ecumenical program which means it is non-denominational.  That cuts out a lot of extra course work because I am not studying the history and development of any particular denomination. I hung around with people TOO long that TOLD me what I had to believe, (them) and now I am a voracious student of the Bible.  God saw my heart and said He still wants to use me for His glory.  I'm there! What I've found is the classes I've taken with the JW's and even those I am helping with at the church are so elementary.  They also twist things to fit their own agenda which I hate.  I've actually learned more talking to YOU guys here than most of the classes offered at the church!  God's holy spirit is upon us and is teaching us all things.  We don't need to attend a seminary for that. I'm going because it will help me to organize my ministry better.  I also need to be ordained in order to perform weddings and do counseling as these are legal requirements in my state.  I should have my legal license to preach by the end of this summer which allows me to officiate as any other pastor until I graduate from my studies. Thanks! Semmy

Amen Seminarian,

I now understand your purpose in attending the seminary. God bless you my brother and I will certainly keep you in my prayers.

[NickHassan]

Yes S,
“Let the dead bury the dead”

[Ramblinrose]

John 8:58b

Quote

Before Abraham was, I am. (KJV) 1. Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying “I am” does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.” The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as “I am” and the other as “I am the man,” is one reason it is so hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in various places in their translation, this being a common one. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C. K. Barrett writes: Ego eimi [“I am”] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. “I am the one—the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God.”23 2. The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament. At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said, literally, “Not I am, Lord” (Matt. 26:22 and 25). No one would say that the disciples were trying to deny that they were God because they were using the phrase “Not I am.” The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. 3. The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquerors the earth and sets up his kingdom. That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still future, yet the Bible says Abraham “saw” it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived. We are not the only ones who believe that Jesus’ statement does not make him God: To say that Jesus is “before” him is not to lift him out of the ranks of humanity but to assert his unconditional precedence. To take such statements at the level of “flesh” so as to infer, as “the Jews” do that, at less than fifty, Jesus is claiming to have lived on this earth before Abraham (8:52 and 57), is to be as crass as Nicodemus who understands rebirth as an old man entering his mother’s womb a second time (3:4).24 4. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.” In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God. Buzzard, pp. 93-97, Dana, Letter 21, pp. 169-171, Morgridge, pp. 120-21, Norton, pp. 242-246, Snedeker, pp. 416-418

From the Book – One God and One Lord

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Correct me if I am wrong but as I understand it RR does not believe the Word was in the beginning with God, but is of the doctrinal stance that he only came to be in the womb of Mary, and this belief is also shown in the quoted scholars words.
Such doctrine is falsehood in my opinion.

[Proclaimer]

She obviously reads “the Word was WITH God” as the “Word was IN God”, or the “Word was an attribute of God”.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2006,23:09)

Hi, Correct me if I am wrong but as I understand it RR does not believe the Word was in the beginning with God, but is of the doctrinal stance that he only came to be in the womb of Mary, and this belief is also shown in the quoted scholars words. Such doctrine is falsehood in my opinion.

NO! RR's stance is that Jesus, the Son of GOD came to be in existence in the womb of Mary.

GOD's word became flesh resulting in the conception of Jesus the Messiah.

Before his conception, (just like every other human being,) Jesus the Messiah did not literally exist.

That is RR's stance.

[NickHassan]

Thank you Adam,
Just what I thought.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
So in context
Jn 8.52f
(A)The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You (B)have a demon Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone Âkeeps My word, he will never (D)taste of death.'

53″Surely You (E)are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”

54Jesus answered, “(F)If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; (G)it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';

55and (H)you have not come to know Him, (I)but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be (J)a liar like you, (K)but I do know Him and (L)keep His word.

56″(M)Your father Abraham (N)rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57(O)So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, (P)I am.”

Jesus was before Abraham, but Abraham lives still, and SAW the day of Jesus, and rejoiced!

[kenrch]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ July 05 2006,10:44)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2006,23:09) Hi, Correct me if I am wrong but as I understand it RR does not believe the Word was in the beginning with God, but is of the doctrinal stance that he only came to be in the womb of Mary, and this belief is also shown in the quoted scholars words. Such doctrine is falsehood in my opinion. NO! RR's stance is that Jesus, the Son of GOD came to be in existence in the womb of Mary. GOD's word became flesh resulting in the conception of Jesus the Messiah. Before his conception, (just like every other human being,) Jesus the Messiah did not literally exist. That is RR's stance.

If Jesus didn't exists with Jehovah before He was begotten then what was He speaking of in Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
Those of the Biblical unitarian type doctrinal stance have a ready prepared “answer” to every verse you can come up with. They must have spent hours thinking up ways to get around the obvious answers.

They use alternative translational possibilitities, Jewish views, and a prophetic understanding of what has already happened.

[seminarian]

Kenrch,

I asked Adam from the Pasture the SAME THING three times regarding this same scripture and reasoning you mentioned here:

“If Jesus didn't exist with Jehovah before He was begotten then what was He speaking of in Joh 17:5  And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.

I never got an answer. Only goofy links and a cut and paste article like Ramblin Rose did.  Do you know why?  Because there is no glory in foreknowlegde. There is also no being in God's presence in foreknowledge.  Our Lord could have sinned and they agree with that, however then they say Christ was referring to his “prophetic exaltation” stated in the Old Testament.  Yeah right.

Here's another verse they can not explain:

“Jesus being aware that the Father has given all into his hands and that He came out from God and is going away to God.” [John 13:3]  Sorry again but I did not “come out” from God by the mere fact I was in His foreknowledge.

More false teachings from an even more false prophet.  They are so delusional that they don't want anyone to see thier leader's death certificate.  Do you know why?  Dr. Paul Wierwille taught that if you believe you will be healed and if you aren't it's because YOU didn't have enough faith. (Tell that to Timothy who was told by Paul to take a little wine for his stomach and frequest illnesses. (1 Tim 5:23)  

Wierwille's death certificate shows he had cancer of the eye which metasticized to other vital organs.  He wore an eyepatch for some time but would not tell anyone he was sick.  He wasn't even 70 years old but his followers will not admit that he could not heal himself as he taught others to do. Doesn't matter that he was a false prophet. These people still worship him to this day.

Here you go folks.  Evidence of another mind controlling cult who has to cut and paste their group's twist on the scriptures because they are not allowed to think for themselves.  Seen it before.  Not impressed.

Blessings to all,

Semmy

[NickHassan]

Hi semmy,
Did Jesus meet with Moses and Elijah for the first time on the mountain do you think or was it a meeting between friends? How on earth did Peter and James and John recognise those Jesus was conversing with?The record of that event by John in Jn 1.14 and Peter in 2 Peter 1 17f showed it had a deep impact on them. He had not yet risen so it was not glory he would receive but had already experienced surely.

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (kenrch @ July 11 2006,19:30)

Quote (Adam Pastor @ July 05 2006,10:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2006,23:09) Hi, Correct me if I am wrong but as I understand it RR does not believe the Word was in the beginning with God, but is of the doctrinal stance that he only came to be in the womb of Mary, and this belief is also shown in the quoted scholars words. Such doctrine is falsehood in my opinion. NO! RR's stance is that Jesus, the Son of GOD came to be in existence in the womb of Mary. GOD's word became flesh resulting in the conception of Jesus the Messiah. Before his conception, (just like every other human being,) Jesus the Messiah did not literally exist. That is RR's stance. If Jesus didn't exists with Jehovah before He was begotten then what was He speaking of in Joh 17:5  And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.

Greetings Kenrch
Here is the same 'answer' I gave to seminarian
Hope the info helps …

Quote (Trinity @ page 62)

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=610 Quote (Elisha @ Sep. 09 2004,18:25) We must understand the Bible in the framework of the culture of the Jews, and the language must ne interpreted and understood in that framework. In that regard, I am indebted to Anthony Buzzard, an Englishman who runs a website “Restoration Fellowship”.  Anthony has helped some of us here in the States to understand the Jewish mindset regarding many of these seemingly difficult verses. I am posting an excerpt from his article, “Who is Jesus”, and linking the entire article for anyone who is interested. There are other articles on his website that also touch on many things that you may find helpful, including his work on the trinity, the kingdom of God, and prophecy. …. Again, God bless you all in Christ's name. Here is the excerpt I promised, and a link at the bottom to the article and Anthony's website. You may also find his comments on Hebrews 1:8 enlightening. ——————————————————————- Glory Before Abraham – by Anthony Buzzard Jesus found his own history written in the Hebrew Scriptures (Luke 24:27). The role of the Messiah was clearly outlined there. Nothing in the divine record had suggested that Old Testament monotheism would be radically disturbed by the appearance of the Messiah. A mass of evidence will support the proposition that the apostles never for one moment questioned the absolute oneness of God, or that the appearance of Jesus created any theoretical problem about monotheism. It is therefore destructive of the unity of the Bible to suggest that in one or two texts in John, Jesus overturned his own creedal statement that the Father was “the only true God” (17:3), or that he took himself far outside the category of human being by speaking of a conscious existence from eternity. Certainly his prayer for the glory which he had had before the world began (17:5) can be easily understood as the desire for the glory which had been prepared for him in the Father’s plan. The glory which Jesus intended for the disciples had also been “given” (John 17:22), but they had not yet received it.[ix] It was typical of Jewish thinking that anything of supreme importance in God’s purpose—Moses, the Law, repentance, the Kingdom of God and the Messiah—had “existed” with God from eternity. In this vein John can speak of the crucifixion having “happened” before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8, KJV). Peter, writing late in the first century, still knows of Jesus’ “preexistence” only as an existence in the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:20). His sermons in the early chapters of Acts reflect exactly the same view. But what of the favorite proof text in John 8:58 that Jesus existed before Abraham? Does Jesus after all confuse everything by saying on the one hand that the Father alone is the “only true God” (17:3, 5:44)—and that he himself is not God, but the Son of God (John 10:36)—and on the other hand that he, Jesus, is also an uncreated being? Does he define his status within the recognizable categories of the Old Testament (John 10:36; Ps. 82:6; 2:7) only to pose an insoluble riddle by saying that he had been alive before the birth of Abraham? Is the Trinitarian problem, which has never been satisfactorily resolved, to be raised because of a single text in John? Would it not be wiser to read John 8:58 in the light of Jesus’ later statement in 10:36, and the rest of Scripture? In the thoroughly Jewish atmosphere which pervades the Gospel of John it is most natural to think that Jesus spoke in terms that were current amongst those trained in the rabbinical tradition. In a Jewish context, asserting “preexistence” does not mean that one is claiming to be an uncreated being! It does, however, imply that one has absolute significance in the divine plan. Jesus is certainly the central reason for creation. But the one God’s creative activity and his plan for salvation were not manifested in a unique created being, the Son, until Jesus’ birth. The person of Jesus originated when God’s self-expression took form in a human being (John 1:14).[x] It is a well-recognized fact that the conversations between Jesus and the Jews were often at cross purposes. In John 8:57 Jesus had not in fact said, as the Jews seemed to think, that he had seen Abraham, but that Abraham had rejoiced to see Messiah’s day (v. 56). The patriarch was expecting to arise in the resurrection at the last day (John 11:24; Matt. 8:11) and take part in the Messianic Kingdom. Jesus was claiming superiority to Abraham, but in what sense? As the “Lamb of God” he had been “crucified before the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8, KJV; 1 Pet. 1:20)—not, of course, literally, but in God’s plan. In this way also Jesus “was” before Abraham. Thus Abraham could look forward to the coming of the Messiah and his Kingdom. The Messiah and the Kingdom therefore “preexisted” in the sense that they were “seen” by Abraham through the eyes of faith.[xi] The expression “I am” in John 8:58 positively does not mean “I am God.” It is not, as so often alleged, the divine name of Exodus 3:14, where Yahweh declared: “I am the self-existent One” (ego eimi o ohn). Jesus nowhere claimed that title. The proper translation of ego eimi in John 8:58 is “I am he,” i.e., the promised Christ (cp. the same expression in John 4:26, “I who speak to you am he [the Christ]”).[xii] Before Abraham was born Jesus had been “foreknown” (cp. 1 Pet. 1:20). Jesus here makes the stupendous claim to absolute significance in God’s purpose. http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/whoisjesus.htm

See also

Concerning John 17.5

I also recommend

Gabriel Was Not a Trinitarian

and

The Nature of Preexistence in the New Testament

[Author]

Posts