John 8:58

Participant

Hey Bro. XXXXXX,

How are you doing? I hope all is going well with you and your lovely wife. I thoroughly read through the scriptures you provided to prove that Jesus is YHWH. I will respond to them one at a time. I want to start with John 8:58, because this is a very popular one that is used to try to prove that Jesus is YHWH. I was recently involved in a debate with a Trinitarian co-worker who also tried to use this verse. As I continue to grow in my knowledge of God's word, I realize that scriptural context is very important. Many try to link John 8:58 to Exodus 3:14 and I don't think that there is any connection at all when one looks at the context.

In the 8th chapter of John, we see Jesus having a confrontation with the Jews. In verse 53, the Jews accused him of claiming to be greater than Abraham (which is highly offensive to a Jew). Let’s look at Jesus response.

54Jesus answered, “If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: ” 55″Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. ” 56″Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. “57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

Look closely at verse 57, the Jews said, “Jesus you’re not yet fifty years old and have you seen Abraham”? Jesus responds by saying, “Look guys, before Abraham was, I was or I existed. Jesus, the Son of God, was claiming his preexistence to Abraham which is certainly truth. Colossians 1:15 tell us that Christ is the image of the invisible God, and the firstborn of creation.

Now let me elaborate on this passage. An image is a representation or resemblance of something. Let’s say I took my digital camera and took a picture of you. I would now have an image of you. I cannot go home and hold a conversation with that image. It would be unreasonable for me to get mad at your image because it’s not responding to me. Why? Because that image isn’t you, it’s a reflection or resemblance of you. Christ is a resemblance or reflection of his Father, the invisible God, but not that God himself. Christ, the Son of God is the firstborn of creation. God isn’t the firstborn of creation because God wasn’t created.

In John 17:5, Jesus confirms his preexistence with the Father before the world was. Jesus was simply stating his preexistence to Abraham in John 8:58. This was highly offensive to the Jews and this is why they sought to stone him in verse 59. The NLT bible version says it best.

John 8:58 (New Living Translation)
58Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”[a]
Most English translations agree with this translation and don’t even attempt to make a connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58
1473ego eg-o' a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic):–I, me. For the other cases and the plural see 1691, 1698, 1700, 2248, 2249, 2254, 2257, etc. see GREEK for 1691 see GREEK for 1698 see GREEK for 1700 see GREEK for 2248 see GREEK for 2249 see GREEK for 2254 see GREEK for 2257

1510eimi i-mee' the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):–am, have been, X it is I, was. See also 1488, 1498, 1511, 1527, 2258, 2071, 2070, 2075, 2076, 2771, 2468, 5600. see GREEK for 1488 see GREEK for 1498 see GREEK for 1511 see GREEK for 1527 see GREEK for 2258 see GREEK for 2071 see GREEK for 2070 see GREEK for 2075 see GREEK for 2076 see GREEK for 2771 see GREEK for 2468 see GREEK for 5600

In closing, I would also like to bring up another point. In Acts 10:21, Peter states the following:

21Then <1161> Peter <4074> went down <2597> to <4314> the men <435> which <3588> were sent <649> unto <4314> him <846> from <575> Cornelius; <2883> and said, <2036> Behold, <2400> I <1473> am <1510> he whom <3739> ye seek: <2212> what <5101> is the cause <156> wherefore <1223> ye <3739> are come? <3918>

Peter said, I am (ego eimi), was he claiming to be God too?

July 3, 2006 at 10:04 pm#21133

Participant

Hi Woutlaw,
Amen.

Though scripture does not say Jesus was created but begotten.
All creation came through him so that does not include himself.
Being firstborn of creation is a pre eminence situation which it pleases God to give the Son in all things.

July 3, 2006 at 10:34 pm#21136

Participant

Yes the very meaning of image means that it has a source. The very meaning of son also means you have a source, (the Father).

It's quite amazing that this has been overlooked as it is not hard to grasp. Rather it is easy and even a child understands as they are aware that they have parents. Yet the worldly wise are confounded by the mystery of the Trinity, which is no mystery at all. Rather a deception that hides behind the statement, “God is so big that you cannot comprehend him”.

Jesus is the image of God, the firstborn. He is the the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being. A representation is also an acknowledgment that you are not the source.

I am glad that there are people who understand these things.

July 3, 2006 at 11:02 pm#21145

Participant

Here, here Nick & T8!!!

The point is as T8 saw, you can not be the ORIGINAL and the image at the same time. Image means copy or even reflection that mirrors the original. Guys, I'm more and more convinced every day that the trinity is Satan's biggest lie and the deception is so blinding that people will need to be delivered from it.

Satan knows he can't get Christians to consciously worship him. So what's the NEXT best thing? Yeah, get people to worship Jesus as God to the exclusion of the Father! Don't get me wrong. Christ is worthy of our worship or proskeuno. This means he is worthy (from old English worthescripe), as God's exalted Son. However even Christ says that true worshippers will worship the Father.

So many scriptures call God the GOd and Father of Jesus, that it isn't funny, but then I have heard Christians many call Jesus Father or Lord God!
God has left the building as far as they are concerned and they WANT to worship Jesus exclusively.
Wrong. Also notice we don't hate them for their beliefs, (pity is a more appropriate word I think), but they will rail violently against us when we say Jesus is not God the Father in human flesh and cite scriptural proof. This has GOT to be Satan rising up in them to extinguish the truth when it is spoken. Why else were so many unitarians, Arians, etc put to death by the RCC? Makes you think.

Some of the pastors at the church I serve were trying to get me to say that Jesus is God but I told them what the Bible says, especially what Jesus said in quoted Psalms, “Ye are gods,” scripture. He is God as displacer and disposer. Anyone whom the Father gives such an office is a God! However, he never was or will be his own Father but subject to him. (1 Cor 15:28)

Once again, this is the biggest deception going folks.

Semmy

July 3, 2006 at 11:06 pm#21146

Participant

Hi S,
The spirit is antichrist and that is why it causes them to oppose us.
1 Jn 4.2 gives us this test and they fail it.
They say God Himself came in the flesh.

July 3, 2006 at 11:29 pm#21147

Participant

I agree seminarian.

But why does this deception exists? What benefit does the Devil have by exhalting the son beyond that of the son. Would not an enemy rather put you down than exhalt you beyond your office?

I can only conclude that our adversary tried to wipe out true faith by death of it's followers as history shows and when that didn't work, he decided that he would go with the the flow of the gospel of Christ rather than go against the tide (so to speak). By going with the flow to some degree, he was able to go with the momentum and then go beyond that which was truth so that Jesus was not only the messiah and the son, but he became God himself. Of course truth is of God and lies are of the enemy. Therefore if the enemy can get you to believe a lie (even a flattering one) then he has gained power over you and God cannot dwell in sin.

If we look at history, we can see that Christians were put to death during dark tribulations. When that failed to put the fire out, it seems that Christianity was allowed to become the official religion of the Roman Empire (another flattery?). But the price for this was that the Caesar became the leader and decided what was truth. Perhaps a plan B from the enemy, but it worked all the same. It seems that direct opposition highlights that which you are apposing. But subtly mixing lies with truth has a better chance of not being detected.

One of the devils tricks is to pose as an angel of light. He doesn't always manifest as the prince of darkness.

We notice in Revelation that Babylon (the Harlot) rides on the back of the beast, a fitting description. God tells his people to come out of her. But how did they get inside in the first place? It was subtle lie after subtle lie that led many away from the truth over the centuries.

I believe that not only is reformation needed, but a redefinition. True reformation is not just about doctrine, but is about reforming our hearts so that Jesus is truly Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

July 3, 2006 at 11:47 pm#21148

Participant

Quote (seminarian @ July 04 2006,00:02)

Here, here Nick & T8!!!

Once again, this is the biggest deception going folks.

Semmy

right on man,

Yes I agree 200% that the Trinity is a deception of satan and his croonies. Satan knew he couldn't stop God's church so what did he do? He said if you can't beat it, join it!!!!!!!! I also agree that we should have pity on those who are drunk on the wine of the whore and not anger. I pray that the Father continues to open more of their eyes just as he has opened our eyes. We were all blind at one time.

July 3, 2006 at 11:51 pm#21149

Participant

Amen,
But when the Spirit does show them they must repent and walk away from what greatly angers God.

July 4, 2006 at 12:16 am#21151

Participant

good point Nick,

I think some don't want to see the truth, and others see the folly of the Trinity and Oneness doctrines(I include Oneness because it's just as big a lie as the Trinity)but are scared to question it. They are told that it is essential to their salvation. But the bible says not such thing.

July 4, 2006 at 12:26 am#21152

Participant

Hi Woutlaw,
It is fear but not fear of God. Perhaps fear of failure or fear of condemnation.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

I could not see this truth till I did see and obey the command to be born again of water and the Spirit. Then my eyes were gradually opened and I saw that it was safer to jump overboard than to remain on a “cruise ship” heading in exactly the opposite direction from where scripture said it should be heading.

Then He met me and I found myself among honest searchers.

July 4, 2006 at 12:53 am#21155

Participant

This is not aimed at anyone in particular but some thoughts I have had from reading this discussion.

I find at least 2 factors in the promotion and survival of false teachings.

'Pride' and 'trusting in man'.

Pride says, how can a foundational doctrine of my christianity be false?

Trusting in man says that we need to set out that which is truth and compile this into a creed, otherwise the Church will just fall apart. They ignore the fact that it is Christ who builds his Church and that the Church is HIS. But they think they need to build it and when they start building they become full of self-importance. Without me there wouldn't be… They inevitiably call men unto themselves.

Of course we also know that many shall be swayed by doctrines of demons. Interesting that demons have doctrines isn't it?

If we are to hold to the doctrine of Christ, one thing is for sure, we know that it is Christ who builds his Church and we are to be led by the Spirit. Anymore than that and we start to build in our own names.

Look at Abraham. God told him that his offspring would number like the grains of sand or stars in the sky. In his own strength, he has a child with a servant and Ishmael becomes the firstborn, but born of the slave woman. He becomes the father of those who dwell in tents and today his offspring are one of the greatest opposing groups of the Jewish people.

If we start of in God's grace, we shouldn't then move into own way of doing things.

Every man is right in his own eyes. We need to be careful that we ourselves do not create disciples after our own image, but after the image of God, who is the Christ.

We are servants of the Kingdom, let us not forget this. For anyone can fall from any level. It is usually pride that proceeds a fall. We should always be on guard and do the works that the Spirit is leading us to do.

July 4, 2006 at 1:23 am#21158

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2006,00:06)

Hi S,
The spirit is antichrist and that is why it causes them to oppose us.
1 Jn 4.2 gives us this test and they fail it.
They say God Himself came in the flesh.

Nick, the hairs are standing up on the back of my neck from what you wrote above here. This is scary.

One of my Greek studies showed that “anti” can also be translated as ante-Christ which means to “exist along side of”.
In essence as a false replica of the true Christ. So as Paul said, they are in fact preaching another Gospel which is no gospel and another Christ which is really of Satan's making.

I agree too that if they are saying God became a man when Hosea 11:9 clearly says He is NOT a man, that's a lie.

Jesus Christ came in the flesh, not his Father. 1 John 4:2 is the only litmus test that matters but instead they want to make you confess that Jesus is GOD instead Lord. Romans 10:9 says otherwise: “That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.” The confession is that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him. Nowhere are we required to confess the trinity or that Jesus is God. Incarnation is referring only to Christ as God the Father can not become one of His creations.

It's got to be the spirit of the antiChrist as you say because everytime I stand up and correct this false teaching, the venomous fangs appear. One pastor at the church I serve has been angry with me ever since I told him Jesus is not God the Father. He's hidden it well but it really boiled over when I gave him a card with a scripture blessing at the end. It was Colossian 1:2-3:

“We give thanks to the GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ, always praying for you.”

Now this is right from the scriptures and I end all of my notes with this same scripture. However he has made a point to try to get back at me by talking behind my back to one of the pastors I am assisting in the Minister Certification classes.

Really, I could care less about what either of them think. Neither has been able to win a theological debate with me or prove that my understanding of scripture is in error. The only thing they have shown is that they are chosing to ignore the scriptures which say Jesus has a God and the Father does not. I am not angry at them for their misbeliefs nor do I think up ways to discredit or hurt them.

You can see the evil in those who are under that spirit. As they are ranting more and more about Jesus not only being God but being THE FATHER, (Modalism), less and less people are coming to church.

Their extreme views are alienating people, many of whom are professionals, educators and hold higher degrees. Many don't believe in the trinity but are afraid to say so because of nonsense like this. Sad. Very Sad.

Thanks again Nick, Woutlaw & T8. My sanity is starting to return now. It isn't just me, is it?

July 4, 2006 at 1:50 am#21159

Participant

Hi S,
Religion seduces us with it's rituals and seasons, colours and incense, singing and the effect of solemn vestment clad men taking us along familiar and comfortable well worn paths. God was not in the fire and the wind and the storm and He is not in this man made nonsense either.
Do you know the symbolic colours of the bible well shown in the instructions from God written for the construction of the temple?
Blue = God
Red = Man
Purple[red + blue]= religion.

Read the description of the Harlot in Rev 17 and 18 in this light and you will see God has no part in the human religion of Rome and her daughters. There is no blue, only red and purple.

July 4, 2006 at 1:54 am#21160

Participant

Very true T8:

“Trusting in man says that we need to set out that which is truth and compile this into a creed, otherwise the Church will just fall apart. They ignore the fact that it is Christ who builds his Church and that the Church is HIS. But they think they need to build it and when they start building they become full of self-importance. Without me there wouldn't be… They inevitiably call men unto themselves.”

I think most people here are simply trying to serve our Lord and King amidst deceptive spirits and doctrines of demons as you said. Your point is well taken that we needn't draw people to “our” Christian doctrine but encourage people to yield to the leadings of God's spirit.

This point was well taken by American Baptists who simply have the Baptist Message & Faith which is NOT binding on any of the members of the church. They cite “soul sufficiency or liberty” as follows:
“The basic concept of individual soul liberty is that, in matters of religion, each person has the liberty to choose what his/her conscience or soul dictates is right, and is responsible to no one but God for the decision that is made. A person may then choose to be a Baptist, a member of another Christian denomination, an adherent to another world religion, or to choose no religious belief system, and neither the church, nor the government, nor family or friends may either make the decision or compel the person to choose otherwise. And, a person may change his/her mind over time.”

This was VERY radical thinking but that was what made Baptists different. Now, they may have dropped that over the last 5 years, but it was in place when my parents and me were active members. This is very different from joining a church where you are bound by a creed or doctrine that you stand up, recite and pledge your obedience to. So this is how my parents were able to keep their monotheistic / unitarian beliefs within a denomination which touts belief in a “triune God”.

Now on the offensive side, Paul INSTRUCTED us to “…EXPOSE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT” (Titus 1:9). “…of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus [named individuals], who SWERVE AS TO TRUTH, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some” (II Tim. 2:180. “…which some, thrusting away, have made shipwreck as to the faith; OF WHOM ARE HYMENEUS AND ALEXANDER, whom I give up to Satan…” (I Tim. 1:20), etc.

This is also in agreement with what you wrote because when we are SUPPOSED to speak out, God's holy spirit will in fact give us the words to say. Luke 12:12 says, “For the holy spirit will teach you at the time what you should say.”

When I got called into that surprise attack of a meeting with the Pastor of Education for a trinity brainwashing session, I was taken off gaurd, but I DID study what the Bible said about who Jesus is and who he is not. I also have lots of key scriptures on nearly everything, pasted on the inside of the cover. My sword of the spirit was ready. STILL, God brought to my mind a clarity that was amazing. I was not disrespectful but I was direct. I remembered things I had studied long before and was more than able to discuss each scripture he came up with. I even gave HIM a lesson on Hebrew idoms and usage of titles as well as Greek writing and translation practices. So it wasn't me doing it!

Yes, we need to be led by God's spirit and not think we have to do it all, (as if we could anyway).

Bless ya'

Semmy

July 4, 2006 at 2:37 am#21163

Participant

Thanks seminarian.

July 4, 2006 at 2:37 am#21164

Participant

The antichrist spirit not only denies that Christ came in the flesh, but also and obviously opposes Christ and his disciples. Those who have the antichrist spirit will try to wear you down and oppress you. Such action is spoken of the AntiChrist himself, an individual who personifies the antichrist spirit.

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Also speaking great words against the Most High. A big lie like the Trinity doctrine could certainly be considered as great and against the Most High. After all God has declared that he is one. Satan tries to turn him into another triune deity of which there are many. Then universalism comes along and says they are all different slants on the same God.

It is quite amazing that the sons of God must first walk through the valley and shadow of death. That is why it is written that we must hate our life in this world. This world is full of deception. The only way we can remain steadfast is to be led by God's spirit. It is then that we can be led into all truth.

July 4, 2006 at 3:30 am#21170

Participant

Quote (seminarian @ July 04 2006,02:23)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2006,00:06)

Hi S,
The spirit is antichrist and that is why it causes them to oppose us.
1 Jn 4.2 gives us this test and they fail it.
They say God Himself came in the flesh.

Nick, the hairs are standing up on the back of my neck from what you wrote above here. This is scary.

I agree too that if they are saying God became a man when Hosea 11:9 clearly says He is NOT a man, that's a lie.

“We give thanks to the GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ, always praying for you.”

You can see the evil in those who are under that spirit. As they are ranting more and more about Jesus not only being God but being THE FATHER, (Modalism), less and less people are coming to church.

Thanks again Nick, Woutlaw & T8. My sanity is starting to return now. It isn't just me, is it?

Amen seminarian,

When you stand up and tell the truth about the Trinity and other heresy's, the fangs come out in full force. Ya see before I was involved with the Oneness Pentecostals, I was with the Mainline Church of Christ which is from the Restoration movement. They are trinitarian, they baptize for the remission of sins in the name of the trinity, no music allowed in worship, very traditional legalistic movement. Well anyway as I grew in the Lord I started questioning the trinity and some of the other things they taught. I wasn't even a member of this church but yet I tithed faithfully and was given a lot of the perks of a member. But the moment I confronted them about the trinity and their other teachings, man they dropped me like a hot potatoe. They threw their arms around me and hugged me and told me they “loved” me. But the moment I denied the trinity I was treated like a redhead step child. So Seminarian my brother, you are not alone.

July 4, 2006 at 3:14 pm#21178

Participant

Nick I thought hard about the testing the spirits scripture you posted here:

“Hi S,
The spirit is antichrist and that is why it causes them to oppose us.
1 Jn 4.2 gives us this test and they fail it.
They say God Himself came in the flesh.”

I'm thinking JW's flunk the test too because they believe Jesus was
the archangel Micheal before coming to earth. As we've discussed
Christ is FAR above any angel being first born over all creation and
one of a kind “monogenes” as the only begotten Son of God. Scripture
says that no angel has said that they have been begotton of God.

This an epiphany for me. Now I will stop wasting my time supporting
groups who do not acknowlege Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.
I give to quite a few Christian charities and ministries.

However, only a few days ago, I received insight from God
to put more time and resources into the
ministry HE has given me. I DON'T have the spirit of the anti-Christ
so I need to move forward in my own ministry.

Its going to be a matter of time before “they throw me out of the
synogouge” as our Lord Jesus predicted. I wrote the Pastor of Education
a detailed rubuttal to his “Jesus is God” propaganda sheets. I have to
work with him this Wednesday in the Minster Certification class. I'm sure
I'll get it with both barrels then! He really flipped out when I
told him in the meeting that Jesus has a God and God the
Father doesn't. I also told him that belief in the trinity is not
a requirement for salvation.

Here is my letter to him for your reading pleasure:

———————————————————

Dear Pastor Dave,

I enjoyed our discussion and thank you for sharing your handouts with me. I am familiar with the scriptures cited in them. I have the following questions / comments:

I too have a Greek interlinear Bible. As I pointed out to you, there are no capitals or lower case in the original Greek manuscripts, (codices). Therefore capitalization was placed there by the translators. Here is the proper sequence or order of the Greek words in John 1:1-

“In the beginning was the word and the word was toward God and God was the word.” This does not denote personification any more than “the wisdom of God” or the “spirit of truth” used in similar scriptures. The Greek “Logos” is translated as “word” but it also has other meanings such as “thought”, (See Bullinger's Companion Bible). So it is easy to translate this as God's thoughts taking on flesh in the form of Christ Jesus as Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God.

The same thing applies to the other scriptures you provided such as Hebrews 1:8 –

“Yet to the Son, (this is God speaking): Thy throne O God is for the eon of the eon.”
It is clear that the Father is calling His Son by the title of God whose meaning is shown here:
“I have said, “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” (Psalm 82:6) The English word God is tanslated from the Greek word Theos which means placer or disposer. Anyone to whom the Father gives such an office of placer or disposer is a God. Our Lord Jesus made this clear regarding his own “Godship” by quoting this scripture when rebuking the Pharisees for claiming he was making himself equal with God for saying he was the Son of God:

“Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods?' If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came, are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that you are blasheming,' seeing that I said, “Son of God am I'?

The main point to remember is that both the Bible and Jesus himself says in scripture that he has a God and Father. (John 20:17, Colossians 1:2-3) This was not just true when he was on earth as a man but is also true now that he has returned to heaven. See here:

“Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem.” (Revelation 3:12)

The scriptures all agree as Paul wrote to the Corinthians:

“To us Christians there is ONE God, the Father…. and but ONE Lord Messiah….” (1 Corn 8:6) Notice Theos, vs. kurios.
The Lord Jesus himself said that true worshippers will “worship the Father.” (John 4:23)

AOG Statement of Beliefs acknowledge that the Son, after 1,000 years of ruling will again be subject to the Father. This is in conflict with the trinity doctrine which says they are co-equal.

“When he has done this then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him so that GOD may be all in all.” (1 Cor 15:28)

So the concluding questions are:

Q. Does our Lord Jesus have a God?

A. Yes, scriptures quote our Lord saying this himself both before and after being resurrected.
(John 20:17, Col. 1:2-3, Revelation 3:12)

Q. Does God the Father have a god?

A. No. “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.” (Deut. 32:39)

Christ said, “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the ONLY true God AND
Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3)
Here he is referring to someone other than himself, (his Father), as the ONLY true God. The Jewish people are fiercely monotheistic. Our Lord always acknowledged his subjection to the Father, ( I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER THAN I.” John 13:3)

There is no indication that they believed in two Yahwehs of equal power, or a trinity nor do the scriptures conclude such. Furthermore Biblical scholars also agree:

HASTINGS DICTIONARY: “HASTINGS Dictionary of the Bible by Schribners, on page 1015 under the topic: “THE TRINITY–The Christian doctrine of God as existing in three Persons & one Substance is NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC OR BY SCRIPTURAL PROOFS…” According to Mr. Hastings, one would have to use ILLOGICAL AND UNSCRIPTURAL data in order to prove a trinity.

As you know I am enrolling in seminary studies and I am sure my professors who are Doctors of Divinity, can answer any additional questions I may have on the subject(s).

————————————————————————–

I didn't even bother to waste ink and paper printing this out. I sent it via email. I didn't even ask for this. Another assistant pastor ratted on me for not agreeing with him. So he told this pastor that I was having a problem with Jesus being God.
If I'm asked to leave, I will shake the dust off my feet. They will have to find someone else to run the church library and assist in their Minister Certification classes and minister in music in their outreach program. I've not donated any money last month as I am not a member and
donate my time and services as a minister, free of charge. I plan to visit another
church this Sunday to interview with them to see if they need help. The Head Pastor would most likely write a good letter of referral for me.
Pray for me guys as the prayers of the saints avail much. I found this website just in time.

Semmy

July 4, 2006 at 3:34 pm#21179

Participant

Woutlaw your post was priceless!!!:

————————————————————————

Amen seminarian,

————————————————————————

Woutlaw, the thing is, I have told SEVERAL leaders at the church that I do not believe
in the Catholic Trinity Doctrine from day one actually. No one really seemed
to care or try to “convert me” until now. Even the pastor who outted me
to the Pastor of Education said, “The word trinity is not in the Bible.” So they
ought to throw him out too if that's the case! However, he was talking more
like those Oneness Pentecostals. This church is branched off from the UPC as they
were first. Assemblies of God came out of the same pentecostal movement from
Azzusa Street but split from the UPC. (That one-eyed black man as they say!)

I really don't associate with the other pastors there so if they are snubbing me,
I wouldn't know it. The head pastor and the pastor of education are closer
to me than the others and are always kind. The point is, they were offering me help that I didn't
ask for or need. If I don't now come around to their way of thinking, (don't worry
it ain't happening), I'm sure I will get the same treatment as you did. The difference
is, I will be long gone by then!

Our Heavenly Father will always open doors for us. I can't wait to get into my seminary
studies full speed. This will also give me more time to spend in the ministry God has
given me which is VERY fulfilling. So there is no loss, only gain. I can't waste any more
time trying to teach reprobate minds when my own flock is going without. I have to
prepare a sermon for this Sunday for my own ministry and I'm wasting my time on this foolishness.
Satan will tie you up if you let him!

Thanks guys for encouraging me. Be blessed!

Semmy

July 4, 2006 at 6:54 pm#21182