Jesus, the Son of God is the beginning.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
Jb 28 18
“…the acquisition of wisdom is above that of pearls”

Compares with
45″Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls,
46and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it”

Suggesting that the meaning relates to the seeking of treasures of the kingdom at the price of our life, lost in baptism into the Son and lived for God in the Son by the Spirit.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
Jesus was not just a man but a divine being who was with God. It was then that the only begotten Son of God emptied himself of his own divine attributes and was sent into the world[1Jn 4.9]. Being filled with the Spirit of God at the Jordan did not make him into a divine being who could compete with God or all men anointed by the Spirit of God, prophets and other later sons of God, would be in that same position and that is not right.

Your words;
“Because the Lord Jesus was as a man fulfilled with the Spirit of His Father, He occupied a special position: He had the 'liking of God', that is, He was the 'Son of God' according to the eternal plan of God. He fully accepted this position and subjected Himself to the plan of God. He realised that the service of the earthly people of God was only a shadow of the true reality. He had understood and integrated the prophecy of David which says that God did not ask for visible sacrifices which could not take away 'the sin of the world'.

Through His obedience and faith the Lord Jesus was infilled with the Spirit of God. Yet He did not think of His godliness in the 'form of God' as something he robbed. On the contrary. He freely lay down this glory and took on the form of a slave. He emptied Himself because He understood that the 'sins of the world' should be carried in the same way the first man brought 'sin' into the world. The offspring of the first Adam was degraded to the position of a slave because of sin (Gen 3; Philippians 2:5-9).

[Dunno]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,00:51)

“ Hi dunno. You say “After, in a certain stage of the development of man, the greatest angel had fallen, and man too had sinned, God promised the Messiah (Gen 3:15). This too came forth from the word which was with God in the beginning. God still continued to speak and think from His original thoughts and intentions. Jesus came forth from the word too. He is, in the situation that came to be and as we know it now, the centre of God's plan with man. He became the man of God, that God had intended in Genesis 1:26. In Him, the deepest sense of God's word became “flesh and blood”. The by God intended life fully came to be in His existence. That is what John speaks of. The “word made flesh” is based on the “word”, it came forth from it, but cannot be equalled to it. The “word” contains more, more than was revealed in the word made flesh. The entire plan of God with man from the beginning until eternity, with everything that was and is needed, still remains locked inside the “word”.” But we say Jesus is the Word of God, not from the Word of God.

Hi! Nick

Again, I repeat that I do not visit these Forums to convince anyone … nor to debate or whatever. I simply offer some comments and views to consider. What anyone decides after the reading is the very least of my concerns. I am only told to work out MY OWN Salvation …. not yours nor anyone else's too.

Your wrote:
“But we say Jesus is the Word of God, not from the Word of God”.

Of course, Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible clearly states this.

The problem is that you evidently have malformed ideas as to what exactly is meant by, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

I mentioned this to you in earlier Posts: It is insufficient to simply discern the falsehood of the 'Trinity Doctrines'. One must also realign those ideas which were deceptively interwined to this false doctrine and which have been unwittingly kept. It is as if one boasts of escaping the clutches of Babylon while, at the same time, taking with him luggage filled with adjacent errors.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
You suggest that all men should undergo this butterfly transition. Is it your view, like the universalists, that all men are saved?

Your words
“It is vital that every human being personally experiences the fullness of the atonement. To this end one has to go through an inner 'metamorphosis' or transformation like the caterpillar that changes into a butterfly. A caterpillar comes out of the egg of the butterfly. For his nourishment and his life span the caterpillar depends on the vegetation on the ground. She is 'from below', that is, tied to the earth. A butterfly, however, can move freely around, not only in the air, but also on moments she uses the vegetation on the earth. She is 'from above' and experiences a great measure of freedom. “

[NickHassan]

Quote (Dunno @ July 07 2006,11:24)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,00:51) “ Hi dunno. You say “After, in a certain stage of the development of man, the greatest angel had fallen, and man too had sinned, God promised the Messiah (Gen 3:15). This too came forth from the word which was with God in the beginning. God still continued to speak and think from His original thoughts and intentions. Jesus came forth from the word too. He is, in the situation that came to be and as we know it now, the centre of God's plan with man. He became the man of God, that God had intended in Genesis 1:26. In Him, the deepest sense of God's word became “flesh and blood”. The by God intended life fully came to be in His existence. That is what John speaks of. The “word made flesh” is based on the “word”, it came forth from it, but cannot be equalled to it. The “word” contains more, more than was revealed in the word made flesh. The entire plan of God with man from the beginning until eternity, with everything that was and is needed, still remains locked inside the “word”.” But we say Jesus is the Word of God, not from the Word of God. Hi! Nick Again, I repeat that I do not visit these Forums to convince anyone … nor to debate or whatever. I simply offer some comments and views to consider. What anyone decides after the reading is the very least of my concerns. I am only told to work out MY OWN Salvation …. not yours nor anyone else's too. Your wrote: “But we say Jesus is the Word of God, not from the Word of God”. Of course, Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible clearly states this. The problem is that you evidently have malformed ideas as to what exactly is meant by, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. I mentioned this to you in earlier Posts: It is insufficient to simply discern the falsehood of the 'Trinity Doctrines'. One must also realign those ideas which were deceptively interwined to this false doctrine and which have been unwittingly kept. It is as if one boasts of escaping the clutches of Babylon while, at the same time, taking with him luggage filled with adjacent errors.

Hi dunno,
You may have thought you enlightened us but I am sure many, like me, remain skeptical of your ideas and as yet unconvinced as to their source.

[Dunno]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,06:23)

Hi dunno, Jesus was not just a man but a divine being who was with God.

Hi! Nick

You wrote:
“Jesus was not just a man but a divine being who was with God”.

You seem to be saying that Jesus was pre-existent as a divine being with God.

If this is so, I most definitely disagree with such a view.

Jesus was born a man and named Jesus. Then, annointed by the Spirit of God, became the Christ. Then having triumphed over Sin and Death, became the Lord Jesus Christ.

Consequently, we see Jesus “crowned with honor and glory”.

The Lord Jesus Christ is still asking all of us today the same question He posed to His disciples: “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?”. The answer we give is an indication as to the depth of our understanding God's ultimate intents and purposes with man.

Even though we have disowned the 'Trinity Doctrines', it remains insufficient to settle for the simple answer, “Jesus is not God”. Even the devil himself is able to confess this fundamental acknowledgement.

Rather, we have to become persuaded of the “better things that accompany salvation”, (Heb 6:9).

To begin with:
To become aware of these “better things” and thus become “equipped for every good work”, we must have proper understanding of the names of Jesus as these are indicative of God's eternal intents and plans towards mankind. We must also understand what it means when we acknowledge that God lives and speaks out of 'eternity past'.

[Dunno]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,06:36)

quote=Nick Hassan,July 07 2006,00:51]” Hi dunno, You may have thought you enlightened us but I am sure many, like me,  remain skeptical of your ideas and as yet unconvinced as to their source.[/quote]

Hi! Nick

You wrote:
“You may have thought you enlightened us but I am sure many, like me, remain skeptical of your ideas and as yet unconvinced as to their source”

ABSOLUTELY! CONTINUE BEING SKEPTICAL
If you and/or others were not skeptical, then we would not be obeying Scripture.

I don't recall my ever claiming to be infallible.

I, just as everyone else who visits here, are following after the very words which serve as a banner to this Forum, “seek and you shall find”. As such, I am merely a seeker. I visit here to read what others are sharing and oftentimes participate with my own views/comments too.

Other than that motivation, I don't lose much sleep over whether someone might be skeptical with my comments. As a matter of fact, I would invite and do welcome such skepticism. This is in keeping with the scriptural obligation to “test everything”.

[Dunno]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,06:34)

Hi dunno, You suggest that all men should undergo this butterfly transition. Is it your view, like the universalists, that all men are saved? Your words “It is vital that every human being personally experiences the fullness of the atonement. To this end one has to go through an inner 'metamorphosis' or transformation like the caterpillar that changes into a butterfly. A caterpillar comes out of the egg of the butterfly. For his nourishment and his life span the caterpillar depends on the vegetation on the ground. She is 'from below', that is, tied to the earth. A butterfly, however, can move freely around, not only in the air, but also on moments she uses the vegetation on the earth. She is 'from above' and experiences a great measure of freedom. “

Hi! Nick

I am becoming rather weary of your “off the wall” questions … asked with such a pretence of innocence but loaded with the venom of an accusation.

I have seen this innumerable occasions throughout this Forum where you continually present accusatory questions which are an obvious effort to distract from the credibility of the Poster's comments.

You do it so mischieviously too. It could be viewed as almost childish if it were not so utterly damaging.

Now … ummmm, where were we?

Oh yes … I had stated something about the Born Again experience as being equivalent to the metamorphosis of the larve to the butterfly.
And, what was Nick's off-the-wall accusatory question to my Post? Unbelievably, here it is: “Is it your view, like the universalists, that all men are saved?”

Nick, this attempt to slander my comments about the metamorphosis of man by some twisted accusation that I was presenting Universal Salvation doctrines is beyond imagining.

If you cannot properly join the discussion, try not to intentionally disrupt it by asking such ridiculous questions which serve only to accuse and slander.

[kenrch]

oops!

[NickHassan]

Quote (Dunno @ July 07 2006,11:47)

You seem to be saying that Jesus was pre-existent as a divine being with God. We must also understand what it means when we acknowledge that God lives and speaks out of 'eternity past'.

Hi dunno,
We do not accept the Biblical Unitarian view of Jesus as just a man. We believe that demeans his glorious status as the greatest being under God.

The biblical unitarian stance is based on their limited view of man as just body and spirit, and thus, by not accepting “soul” they cannot grasp the nature of heavenly beings. Their view of of human eyes and not spiritual eyes. Their denial of scripture by seeing what has been as what instead, will be, is a distortion of truth in our view and we abhor such an approach.

The Son of God is the image of God and the firstborn of creation. Uncreated himself but unique and begotten of God alone all creation came through him according to scripture. Having a will and nature of his own he chose obedience in coming and even obedience unto death for the sake of the greater glory he would inherit.

Called a god among other godly beings, by God in scripture though not being the one true God, and, according to scripture, with life in himself and with glory of his own, attested by those who saw him on the mountain he chose service to God, humbling himself and coming from heaven to partake of flesh and be as one of us he can truly mediate between God and us

The only begotten Son was a son when he was sent[1Jn 4.9], begotten in the beginning from God Himself.
We believe from scripture that he had divine nature but having emptied himself was only as a submitted vessel for God's Spirit, the anointed one or messiah he revelaed the nature and power of God in him to men.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
A simple denial would easily explain what may have been confusing to others. We act on behalf of your readers as facilitators who seek clarifications here, and no question is an accusation unless you make it one yourself.

Not answering questions, however, does not allow development of shared understandings and allows confusion and mistrust to grow. It also can be a diversion. Attacking the one who asks for that clarification does not necessarily reflect well either as it suggests you are not open to sharing and yet you say that is why you are here.

This is a place where we all are expected to be able to give a reasonable defense for our beliefs without taking personal umbrage as that is how we grow togther and shed what is useless for the journey ahead.

No one can come here and teach without being prepared to justify their beliefs. We do not come from the same backgrounds. We do not know each other. We have to ask questions to seek a basis of unity and we often do find it. But there are some wild and woolly ideas out there and we see them confidently exhibited here frequently.

Does not scripture say in 1Peter 3
” always being ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account of the hope that is in you..”?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Dunno @ July 07 2006,12:15)

Your words “It is vital that every human being personally experiences the fullness of the atonement. To this end one has to go through an inner 'metamorphosis' or transformation like the caterpillar that changes into a butterfly. A caterpillar comes out of the egg of the butterfly. For his nourishment and his life span the caterpillar depends on the vegetation on the ground. She is 'from below', that is, tied to the earth. A butterfly, however, can move freely around, not only in the air, but also on moments she uses the vegetation on the earth. She is 'from above' and experiences a great measure of freedom. “[/quote] Hi! Nick Oh yes … I had stated something about the Born Again experience as being equivalent to the metamorphosis of the larve to the butterfly.

Hi dunno,
Perhaps I could have put the questions in a better way.

You see there is possible scriptural support for what you say as shown in Gal 4.19
“My chlidren, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you-but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you”

Such is a description of the early growth of those baptised into Christ and learning slowly by ongoing submission to let their hearts and minds be transformed into the likeness of Christ. The land is occupied territory and has to be fought for with the help of the Spirit just as Joshua had to fight for every inch of the promised land.

The way you present the butterfly idea suggests that it is a process all men go through without realising it and then -voila,- all is revealed and they find out that they are all sons of God!

I am sure that is not your intention to make such claims so I gave you an opportunity to say so because you have yetr to stste how men begin their walk with God, and what you mean by rebirth.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
Perhaps others will give you different reflections on your treatise and so I hope they do to get some balance.

[Dunno]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,14:01)

Quote (Dunno @ July 07 2006,11:47) You seem to be saying that Jesus was pre-existent as a divine being with God. We must also understand what it means when we acknowledge that God lives and speaks out of 'eternity past'. Hi dunno, We do not accept the Biblical Unitarian view of Jesus as just a man. We believe that demeans his glorious status as the greatest being under God. The biblical unitarian stance is based on their limited view of man as just body and spirit, and thus, by not accepting “soul” they cannot grasp the nature of heavenly beings. Their view of of human eyes and not spiritual eyes. Their denial of scripture by seeing what has been as what instead, will be, is a distortion of truth in our view and we abhor such an approach. The Son of God is the image of God and the firstborn of creation. Uncreated himself but unique and begotten of God alone all creation came through him according to scripture. Having a will and nature of his own he chose obedience in coming and even obedience unto death for the sake of the greater glory he would inherit. Called a god among other godly beings, by God in scripture though not being the one true God, and, according to scripture, with life in himself and with glory of his own, attested by those who saw him on the mountain he chose service to God, humbling himself and coming from heaven to partake of flesh and be as one of us he can truly mediate between God and us The only begotten Son was a son when he was sent[1Jn 4.9], begotten in the beginning from God Himself. We believe from scripture that he had divine nature but having emptied himself was only as a submitted vessel for God's Spirit, the anointed one or messiah he revelaed the nature and power of God in him to men.

Hi! Nick

And who may I ask is the WE in your comment, “We do not accept”

Are you speaking for everyone here?
Is this a DiscussionForum already predisposed to a structure of doctrines of which becomes the entire purpose of this WebSite?
If so, then why pretend to name it a 'DiscussionForum'?
Why don't we simply call it “Nick's Forum” and be done with the pretence?

Ummm, I don't recall my ever denying the absolute truth that man is composed of a body, soul and spirit. So, if you wouldn't mind, please strike me off your accusatory list of 'Unitarians'.

Nick, the problem seems to be that you yourself miserably fail to comprehend what the body, soul and spirit in fact are. I have read your many Posts on the matter and you evidently dance around some convoluted imagining of their biblical definitions.

Again I say to you:
You have inadvertently escaped Babylon while taking some luggage filled with any number of errors which are now causing inconsistent confessions and a blurred testimony of the Gospel.

It does no good to attempt to hide your murky luggage by accusatory pretences and mischievious slander. I suggest that you open your Bible up alongside of your Babylonian Luggage and re-examine your doctrinal posture and perhaps cause it to become consistent to Scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
Thank you for the clarifications offered but more answers would help clear up what may well be other misunderstandings.

[Dunno]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,14:57)

Quote (Dunno @ July 07 2006,12:15) Your words “It is vital that every human being personally experiences the fullness of the atonement. To this end one has to go through an inner 'metamorphosis' or transformation like the caterpillar that changes into a butterfly. A caterpillar comes out of the egg of the butterfly. For his nourishment and his life span the caterpillar depends on the vegetation on the ground. She is 'from below', that is, tied to the earth. A butterfly, however, can move freely around, not only in the air, but also on moments she uses the vegetation on the earth. She is 'from above' and experiences a great measure of freedom. “ Hi! Nick Oh yes … I had stated something about the Born Again experience as being equivalent to the metamorphosis of the larve to the butterfly.[/quote] Hi dunno, Perhaps I could have put the questions in a better way. You see there is possible scriptural support for what you say as shown in Gal 4.19 “My chlidren, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you-but I could wish to be present with you now and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you” Such is a description of the early growth of those baptised into Christ and learning slowly by ongoing submission to let their hearts and minds be transformed into the likeness of Christ. The land is occupied territory and has to be fought for with the help of the Spirit just as Joshua had to fight for every inch of the promised land. The way you present the butterfly idea suggests that it is a process all men go through without realising it and then -voila,- all is revealed and they find out that they are all sons of God! I am sure that is not your intention to make such claims so I gave you an opportunity to say so because you have yetr to stste how men begin their walk with God, and what you mean by rebirth.

Hi Nick

I suggest you read my comment again.

“It is vital that every human being personally experiences the fullness of the atonement. To this end one has to go through an inner 'metamorphosis' or transformation like the caterpillar that changes into a butterfly.”

Please take note that I prefaced the metamorphosis statement by the pleading that every human being personally experience Salvation. Is this not Scriptural? “For God so loved the world ….”.

So, Nick … it is NOT how I presented the comment … it is more of how YOU read and received it.

You seem to filter everything so utterly defensive that you end up with nothing of any value after you read it. That is why you are constantly affixing ridiculous questions and bringing suspicion to a Post.
Throughout this Forum and after ready dozens of your previous Posts, I have detected that it is hardly what one actually wrote; rather, it is how you yourself chose to decipher it for yourself that is causing the problem.

By the time someone manages to straighten out your defensive and accusatory filter to their Post, the subject matter becomes lost in the maze of archived Posts and everyone loses because of that.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
I may be unusually stupid but if that is the case and I misconstrue things then perhaps that may be an advantage to others like me who are not as bright as yourself?
Perhaps you may assume that we are and miss explaining a liitle more patiently so we can all understand?

Yes God wants all to be saved. All can be saved by the substitutionary death of Jesus. But you did not say that or explain that not all will be saved and could leave the impression you have now explained was false.

Thank you on behalf of myself and other simple and ignorant children of God for crossing the t's and adding the vital dots.

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
Now we are making progress can you also address some of the other questions that I have put in to clarify your foundational beliefs? I would love to agree with you but so far we have too little information. Thank you.

[Dunno]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,17:41)

Hi dunno, I may be unusually stupid but if that is the case and I misconstrue things then perhaps that may be an advantage to others like me who are not as bright as yourself? Perhaps you may assume that we are and miss explaining a liitle more patiently so we can all understand? Yes God wants all to be saved. All can be saved by the substitutionary death of Jesus. But you did not say that or explain that not all will be saved and could leave the impression you have now explained was false. Thank you on behalf of myself and other simple and ignorant children of God.

Hi! Nick

I have never thought for a moment that you (nor anyone else) was, as you say: “unusually stupid”. Neither have I ever hinted at such a thing.

I have also never intended to lend the impression that I am somehow overly “bright”. While it may be true that my writing skills might be a little above average, this is only because I have been the Managing Editor of a Christian periodical for many years and therefore my vocabulary has become more practiced than nomal.

I am just like everyone else who visits this Forum. No better and no worse.

Yes, it is true that I have opinions and that I oftentimes can express them quite strongly. But this does not mean to say that I am fossilized in some doctrinal posture which might cause me to be deaf to what the Spirit of God is saying to His people in this day and hour. After all, the essential reason I visit here is to share in the thoughtworld of others and perhaps be blessed by their treasures.

I have read many Posts here and have reached far back to the archives too in an attempt to gather those things which seem to be important to the visitors here. I have learned alot from this reading and enjoyed it very much.

Anyways, just to clear the air with you:

I am not a universalist.
I am not a Trinitarian.
I do not subscribe to what is known as 'New Age'.

I am however a sincere and genuine Christian who follows after the Gospel of Jesus (aka: Gospel of the Kingdom [Matt 4:23;Matt 9:35;Matt 24:14]).

I suppose the easiest way of answering the question, “What do I believe?” is best answered by TPI:

-'Many people have asked of us, “Where is your 'Statement of Beliefs?”. The answer is simply: We choose to not have one!
We choose not to construct doctrinal gates and dogmatic fences on the path of those seeking the gifts and promises of our Lord. Rather, we seek to pronounce the faith of God for everyone who should visit us here.

What is Faith?

Faith is the ability of one's spirit through which he can take hold of issues that are not perceived by the senses. Faith becomes active when one hears or reads something. The more a person hears and reads, the more things he can believe in. Faith always connects itself to the word which is an expression of a thought.

Two Opposing Faiths

We can say that God has great faith in Himself and in His creation. He has the absolute certainty that what He does is good and what He intends shall come about.

The negative and oppressing powers have faith too. But not towards God's plan. They believe in themselves and in their evil works of destruction and death. They believe most emphatically that nothing good will become of man. They do not trust in man at all, but have completely written him off as future ruler and king over the works of God's hand.

For this reason, there is a tremendous battle of faith concerning man between God and the powers of darkness. In this battle, it is spirit against spirit and positive faith against negative faith. The powers of darkness have for ages been a heel biter. They make man's path of development difficult and stagnant at times. It seems that the enemy is gaining, but ultimately the faith God has in man will triumph. God favors man, and God believes in man.

The Faith of Jesus

Jesus took upon Himself the faith of God towards His creation too. Throughout the Scriptures we see that Jesus thought and spoke like His heavenly Father. Jesus received everything from God so as to be one with Him, and therefore He acquired His full wisdom, power, and His faith. He is even called the Author and Perfecter of faith. That is why He is also called “the Word of God”, because He gave expression to God's thoughts.

Because of His faith in the ultimate intentions of God towards man, Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all people, of all places and all times, and this ransom consisted of His perfect life.

—————————–
We at TPI want never to lose the faith of God in man; particularly, not in any individual who may visit our WebSite.

We don't wish to be found saying that nothing will become of that woman, man or child, because we want to confess the faith of God. All things are possible for those who keep the faith of Jesus and who follow after His triumphant Gospel of the Kingdom.

Nor do we wish to presuppose that someone must find the wonderful plans and purposes of God for their lives under the pressure of structured doctrines. God speaks to every man's heart as an individual and in their particular circumstance.

Yet, it remains true that we strive to preach the triumphant gospel of Jesus Christ and we hold out the faith of God towards all who visit us here and believe that those who seek after Jesus will be wonderfully rewarded.-'

[NickHassan]

Hi dunno,
Thanks.
Does faith alone bring salvation?
Or faith plus knowledge?
Or fith plus repentance?
Or faith plus obedience?
Or all of the above?

[Author]

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