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Quote (seminarian @ July 06 2006,04:57) Pastor Adam,
seminarian
My name is Adam, as in,
Adam Pastor
Quote (Trinity @ page 62) https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=610
Quote (Elisha @ Sep. 09 2004,18:25) We must understand the Bible in the framework of the culture of the Jews, and the language must ne interpreted and understood in that framework. In that regard, I am indebted to Anthony Buzzard, an Englishman who runs a website “Restoration Fellowship”. Anthony has helped some of us here in the States to understand the Jewish mindset regarding many of these seemingly difficult verses. I am posting an excerpt from his article, “Who is Jesus”, and linking the entire article for anyone who is interested. There are other articles on his website that also touch on many things that you may find helpful, including his work on the trinity, the kingdom of God, and prophecy. ….
Again, God bless you all in Christ's name.
Here is the excerpt I promised, and a link at the bottom to the article and Anthony's website. You may also find his comments on Hebrews 1:8 enlightening.
——————————————————————-
Glory Before Abraham – by Anthony Buzzard
Jesus found his own history written in the Hebrew Scriptures (Luke 24:27). The role of the Messiah was clearly outlined there. Nothing in the divine record had suggested that Old Testament monotheism would be radically disturbed by the appearance of the Messiah. A mass of evidence will support the proposition that the apostles never for one moment questioned the absolute oneness of God, or that the appearance of Jesus created any theoretical problem about monotheism. It is therefore destructive of the unity of the Bible to suggest that in one or two texts in John, Jesus overturned his own creedal statement that the Father was “the only true God” (17:3), or that he took himself far outside the category of human being by speaking of a conscious existence from eternity. Certainly his prayer for the glory which he had had before the world began (17:5) can be easily understood as the desire for the glory which had been prepared for him in the Father’s plan. The glory which Jesus intended for the disciples had also been “given” (John 17:22), but they had not yet received it.[ix]
It was typical of Jewish thinking that anything of supreme importance in God’s purpose—Moses, the Law, repentance, the Kingdom of God and the Messiah—had “existed” with God from eternity. In this vein John can speak of the crucifixion having “happened” before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8, KJV). Peter, writing late in the first century, still knows of Jesus’ “preexistence” only as an existence in the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:20). His sermons in the early chapters of Acts reflect exactly the same view.
But what of the favorite proof text in John 8:58 that Jesus existed before Abraham? Does Jesus after all confuse everything by saying on the one hand that the Father alone is the “only true God” (17:3, 5:44)—and that he himself is not God, but the Son of God (John 10:36)—and on the other hand that he, Jesus, is also an uncreated being? Does he define his status within the recognizable categories of the Old Testament (John 10:36; Ps. 82:6; 2:7) only to pose an insoluble riddle by saying that he had been alive before the birth of Abraham? Is the Trinitarian problem, which has never been satisfactorily resolved, to be raised because of a single text in John? Would it not be wiser to read John 8:58 in the light of Jesus’ later statement in 10:36, and the rest of Scripture?
In the thoroughly Jewish atmosphere which pervades the Gospel of John it is most natural to think that Jesus spoke in terms that were current amongst those trained in the rabbinical tradition. In a Jewish context, asserting “preexistence” does not mean that one is claiming to be an uncreated being! It does, however, imply that one has absolute significance in the divine plan. Jesus is certainly the central reason for creation. But the one God’s creative activity and his plan for salvation were not manifested in a unique created being, the Son, until Jesus’ birth. The person of Jesus originated when God’s self-expression took form in a human being (John 1:14).[x]
It is a well-recognized fact that the conversations between Jesus and the Jews were often at cross purposes. In John 8:57 Jesus had not in fact said, as the Jews seemed to think, that he had seen Abraham, but that Abraham had rejoiced to see Messiah’s day (v. 56). The patriarch was expecting to arise in the resurrection at the last day (John 11:24; Matt. 8:11) and take part in the Messianic Kingdom. Jesus was claiming superiority to Abraham, but in what sense?
As the “Lamb of God” he had been “crucified before the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8, KJV; 1 Pet. 1:20)—not, of course, literally, but in God’s plan. In this way also Jesus “was” before Abraham. Thus Abraham could look forward to the coming of the Messiah and his Kingdom. The Messiah and the Kingdom therefore “preexisted” in the sense that they were “seen” by Abraham through the eyes of faith.[xi]
The expression “I am” in John 8:58 positively does not mean “I am God.” It is not, as so often alleged, the divine name of Exodus 3:14, where Yahweh declared: “I am the self-existent One” (ego eimi o ohn). Jesus nowhere claimed that title. The proper translation of ego eimi in John 8:58 is “I am he,” i.e., the promised Christ (cp. the same expression in John 4:26, “I who speak to you am he [the Christ]”).[xii] Before Abraham was born Jesus had been “foreknown” (cp. 1 Pet. 1:20). Jesus here makes the stupendous claim to absolute significance in God’s purpose.
See also
I also recommend
and
The Nature of Preexistence in the New Testament
Adieu!!!
Hi Adam Pastor,
Lk 1.36
“..the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the Child shall be called the Son of God”Amen.
Jesus was truly the Son of God according to the flesh.
But it was not for this reason ONLY that Jesus was called the Son of God.
He is the Son who was sent into the world.
He is the Son spoken of in Ps 2 and Prov 30.
Jesus was more that flesh enlivened by a human spirit.
So are you.Hi Adam Pastor,
Was the “thought or plan of God” with God in the beginning? Was not this rather a word expressed to be with God?
Was all creation done through this Word who was God with God?Hebrews places the quote from Ps 2 of the begettal of the Son before the verse about the sending of this son into the world. What do you make of this?
Hi dunno,
You treatise reads to me as if it is all about MAN.
Surely the plan of God is about God.
God is sifting and refining a people to share in his eternal plan but they are not the central feature in this plan but He is.
Those who obey His Son find eternal life and partake in this glorious plan.
But we do not glorify man.Ah Adam,
You caught my little play on your name
Sorry but I just couldn't resist. I think the
others got it too!Still not going to answer my question, eh? You know this is the same diversionary tactic the pastor of education at my church used. Don't answer the question but throw a stack of inane definitions and articles at the person. Or try to deflect attention by pointing to something trival such as my making sport of your username, (it was kind of funny). At least he gave me some real articles not some lame website links! What kind of credible Biblical research am I supposed to find there?
I really don't like when people try to dodge direct questions. Just something a bit dishonest rings of it.
Well, maybe the third time will do it. Please answer this DIRECT question:
Jesus Prayer to the Father:
And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. (John 17:5)
You and your BU, WAY, CFF and other ex-WAY cronies say Christ “began” in the womb of Mary and only exisited in God's foreknowledge JUST LIKE US. Read the scripture above here. Now I don't know about you, but I didn't enjoy ANY glory before I existed because there is no GLORY in foreknowledge. There is also no being present with God in foreknowledge.
Adam, you now have 30 seconds to answer, (Jeopardy music plays in background).
Still waiting,
Semmy
Dear Adam,
I use to believe in the trinity, just like you. Yet, we can believe God's word or we can believe the word's of men. I chose God's word. So I am going to give you some scripture as I do all who stand on the trinity doctrine. Everyone who stands on this doctrine ignore this part of scripture, along with other parts, but we will start with this. Read the verses below and explain what it means by Christ, who the trinitarians believe is God the Father will be subject to God the Father? The Trinity doctrine contradicts itself for one thing and it also makes God out to be a God of confusion by posing as someone else, his begotten Son.
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Also, Trinity doctrine contradicts itself and it makes God out to be a God of confusion by posing as someone else, his begotten Son. Please accept scripture and not the words of men.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2006,16:45) Hi dunno,
You treatise reads to me as if it is all about MAN.
Surely the plan of God is about God.
God is sifting and refining a people to share in his eternal plan but they are not the central feature in this plan but He is.
Those who obey His Son find eternal life and partake in this glorious plan.
But we do not glorify man.
Hi! NickWell, the short answer is: no one hardly can believe that our God has any compelling need to boast of himself by implementing some marvelous plan or whatever.
Yes, on the other hand, God rightfully boasts of His creation … His creatures … of whom He values so incredibly much that He does boast of being able to count the hairs on their heads. And, of course, considers human(kind) so intensely that initiated a saving plan to effect our restoration.
Unfortunately, alot of sincere Christians still insist on keeping a dim view of who they are now after the Born Again experience … when ALL things are passed away and ALL things became new. They still wish to think of themselves as the 'old' and 'tattered' humanity … their purposeless and fragile existence. They still insist on viewing themselves “after the flesh” rather than “after the spirit”.
If all one is able to confess is, “I am a sinner. I will always be a miserable sinner. I am here on earth, marking time and trying my best not to commit some deplorable sin which might deprive me of a reward in the eternal heaven”, then I can understand how it is that they might hesitate to declare the glorious things which have been bestowed on the crown of God's creation, Man.
One final thing:
I do not ever recall my encouraging anyone to, as you implied, “glorify man”. Quite the contrary! I do encourage everyone to recognize and declare how the faith and love of our wonderful Father is able to save them and to fix our eyes on “Christ, our hope of glory”.Hi dunno,
You say:
“Something came to be born in the heart of God. It formed in God's being and from the depths of God. In God “the Word” was formed and that 'word' is the substance of all things which were to be. God worked on a plan. In His inner self a fantastically marvelous idea evolved; a thought containing all. And it was with God. It was hidden with God as a yet an unspoken thought. The word was with God; the word was God. That plan, that unspoken word, is what formed the beginning. Before God spoke one word, that word -we mean the complete plan of God- was in Him, and God had thought of everything, (including even the smallest details), and considered and concluded to Himself: this is it! This is the plan I will accomplish”
The word was spoken into existence to be a Son, God with the one true God, and surely did not remain a part of God as the trinitarians would say.Quote (seminarian @ July 06 2006,17:38) Ah Adam, You caught my little play on your name
Sorry but I just couldn't resist. I think the
others got it too!Still not going to answer my question, eh? You know this is the same diversionary tactic the pastor of education at my church used. Don't answer the question but throw a stack of inane definitions and articles at the person. Or try to deflect attention by pointing to something trival such as my making sport of your username, (it was kind of funny). At least he gave me some real articles not some lame website links! What kind of credible Biblical research am I supposed to find there?
I really don't like when people try to dodge direct questions. Just something a bit dishonest rings of it.
Well, maybe the third time will do it. Please answer this DIRECT question:
Jesus Prayer to the Father:
And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. (John 17:5)
You and your BU, WAY, CFF and other ex-WAY cronies say Christ “began” in the womb of Mary and only exisited in God's foreknowledge JUST LIKE US. Read the scripture above here. Now I don't know about you, but I didn't enjoy ANY glory before I existed because there is no GLORY in foreknowledge. There is also no being present with God in foreknowledge.
Adam, you now have 30 seconds to answer, (Jeopardy music plays in background).
Still waiting,
Semmy
Hi!
HeIsComingWhile reading your comment, “Now I don't know about you, but I didn't enjoy ANY glory before I existed”, I half-giggled to myself.
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you”
Is Jeremiah different from the rest of us? In Acts 10:34 Peter said, “God does not show favoritism . . .” He treats all of us the same.In Ephesians 2:10 he says, “For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” God planned us in advance.
David prayed in Psalm 138:8, “The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your love, O LORD, endures forever– do not abandon the works of your hands.”
And, what was the purpose of God for our lives and which was declared before any conception of time and space existed? Rom 11:36, “For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever.” “that we….should be to the praise of His glory” Eph 1:12
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2006,23:43) The word was spoken into existence to be a Son, God with the one true God, and surely did not remain a part of God as the trinitarians would say.
Hi! NickUmmm, and what would be the Easy-Read translation of your statement below mean to say?
“The word was spoken into existence to be a Son, God with the one true God, and surely did not remain a part of God as the trinitarians would say.”You sortta' lost me on this one. Wanna' give it another try so maybe I can decipher what it is you are meaning to say?
Hi dunno,
Psalm 2
Jn 1.1A thought or plan remains within the person who has such a thought or plan
A Word is spoken and has existence of it's own, separate from the speaker of that Word.
A Word can be with the speaker of that Word but a thought or plan cannot but is still within.
The only begotten Son of God is the Word of God“
Hi dunno.
You say
“After, in a certain stage of the development of man, the greatest angel had fallen, and man too had sinned, God promised the Messiah (Gen 3:15). This too came forth from the word which was with God in the beginning. God still continued to speak and think from His original thoughts and intentions. Jesus came forth from the word too. He is, in the situation that came to be and as we know it now, the centre of God's plan with man. He became the man of God, that God had intended in Genesis 1:26. In Him, the deepest sense of God's word became “flesh and blood”. The by God intended life fully came to be in His existence. That is what John speaks of. The “word made flesh” is based on the “word”, it came forth from it, but cannot be equalled to it. The “word” contains more, more than was revealed in the word made flesh. The entire plan of God with man from the beginning until eternity, with everything that was and is needed, still remains locked inside the “word”.”But we say Jesus is the Word of God, not from the Word of God.
Hi dunno,
You say
“perfect.
God says, in Genesis.
“very good”
Your words:
“In order to acquire this woman, God created everything that would be needed. In His thoughts He prepared the greatest work possible. A perfect work. A creation, a grand Godly creation. Since the beginning God had us envisioned. There would be a heaven and an earth, richly and abundantly provided with all possibilities and means to prepare that man for his godly destiny. It is for that purpose that God created the heaven and the earth, (Gen.1:1).”Should we prefer your words?
The Word was WITH God.
Not the Word was in God.Yes the Logos is God's expression and is an attribute of God. But the Logos was with God as a seperate identity to God.
The Logos in John 1:1 is preceeded with an article defining the this Logos as an identity, not an attribute. Scripture goes on to define the Logos as Christ.
But even God begats us through the Word of Truth. But Christ is first in all things. He preceeds us and is preeminent in every way.
James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.Hi dunno,
You speak of rebirth frequently. Is this of water and the Spirit, or just of the Spirit? Does man have to die and be reborn into Christ and be raised with him, or is he just revelead to be a son of God by the presence of the Spirit. Scripture says Christ must be born into us, but we also have to be reborn into him, to be clothed with him[Gal 3.27, 4.19]
Your words
“This Spirit makes man a true Christian. The believer who has not yet received this Spirit shall have to cleanse himself and to reach out in faith for this Spirit. Thanks to the given promise the gift is for everyone whom in faith asks for it (Matt 3:11; Luke 11:13; John 1:5, 11:16).The preparatory work of the holy Spirit first brings forth the true church (the whole of believers who are infilled with the Spirit, the 'Body of Christ') in full stature. When this has become true, the atonement has been fully achieved. The Lord Jesus shall then present his 'bride' and clothe her in 'spotless fine linen' (full justice), holy and blameless, equipped to very good work. (Eph 5:26,27, Rev. 19:8) “
The Word came from God and then God created all things through his Word.
Jesus on the other hand is begotten. He came directly from God. That is why he is called the image of God. He isn't the source and he isn't the result of God creating through his word, i.e., created. Because he is the Word that God created all things through. That is why he is the only mediator between God and man. No one else has that unique position between God and his creation.
God cannot sin and man cannot fellowship with God because of that. But the son is truly the only mediator.
Now we came into being by God but through Christ, i.e., we are created. Christ partook of flesh. He became a man. He left his former glory and came to us and then returned to the former glory he had with the Father. That is the difference.
Hi dunno,
The Word of God, Jesus Christ, is life. All that came to be did so through him. He was a divine being with the Father in the beginning . He existed before Abraham, and Abraham rejoiced to see his time.
Your unitarian view denies these roles and speaks of him only according to the flesh, a short time during which he was made less than the angels.Your words
“Therefore, it is not the first Adam, but our Lord Jesus who is the First Born and the 'prototype' of mankind God from the beginning intended. For the same reason our Lord Jesus is called the 'First Born of the whole creation'. Physically He was not alive before Adam, as claimed by the so-called pre-existence doctrines. But all the same, in the eternal plan of the mighty Creator He was and is and remains forever the First Born and the 'beginning of the creation of God' (Rev 3:14)”.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2006,00:41) Hi dunno,
Psalm 2
Jn 1.1A thought or plan remains within the person who has such a thought or plan
A Word is spoken and has existence of it's own, separate from the speaker of that Word.
A Word can be with the speaker of that Word but a thought or plan cannot but is still within.
The only begotten Son of God is the Word of God
Hi! NickOh well, if that is how you wish to believe it. so be it.
I am not here to convince anyone … only to discuss things and share things.
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