Jesus, the Son of God is the beginning.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
So is ramblinrose correct and the Son of God only came into existence at his conception?

[Adam Pastor]

YES!

(Mat 1:18)  Now the birth [genesis] of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

(Luke 1:35)  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also [dio kai, for that reason] that holy thing which shall be born [conceived] of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matthew & Luke have absolutely no knowledge or concept of Jesus, the Son of GOD, pre-existing his own conception.
And John does not contradict Matthew nor Luke.

[Proclaimer]

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

[Adam Pastor]

Concerning Micah 5:2

Quote (“The Son of God” @ page 12)

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=110 Quote (Sammo @ May 17 2006,12:37) Artizan007,May wrote: Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.” This is an interesting one… will look at that! Thanks This is the NET Bible footnote: sn In riddle-like fashion this verse alludes to David, as the references to Bethlehem and to his ancient origins/activities indicate. The passage anticipates the second coming of the great king to usher in a new era of national glory for Israel. Other prophets are more direct and name this coming ideal ruler “David” (Jer 30:9; Ezek 34:23-24; 37:24-25; Hos 3:5). Of course, this prophecy of “David’s” second coming is actually fulfilled through his descendant, the Messiah, who will rule in the spirit and power of his famous ancestor and bring to realization the Davidic royal ideal in an even greater way than the historical David (see Isa 11:1, 10; Jer 33:15).

Also

http://adonimessiah.spaces.msn.com/blog….6.entry

Concerning John 8:58

Quote (“John 8:58 @ page 3)

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=20 Ramblinrose,July wrote: John 8:58b Quote Before Abraham was, I am.  (KJV) 1. Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he  was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God.  This is just not the case.  Saying “I am” does not make a person God.  The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.”  The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as “I am” and the other as “I am the man,” is one reason it is so hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English.  Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in various places in their translation, this being a common one.  Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29).  Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.  C. K. Barrett writes: Ego eimi [“I am”] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms.  “I am the one—the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God.”23   2. The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8.  “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20.  “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.).  It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58.  If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament.   At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ.  They said, literally, “Not I am, Lord” (Matt. 26:22 and 25).  No one would say that the disciples were trying to deny that they were God because they were using the phrase “Not I am.”  The point is this:                                         “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. 3.  The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God.  There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time.  However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man.  A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge.  Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”  This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquerors the earth and sets up his kingdom.  That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10).  Abraham looked for a city that is still future, yet the Bible says Abraham  “saw” it.  In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future?  Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith.  Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham.  Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham.  Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.  We are not the only ones who believe that Jesus’ statement does not make him God:   To say that Jesus is “before” him is not to lift him out of the ranks of humanity but to assert his unconditional precedence.  To take such statements at the level of “flesh” so as to infer, as “the Jews” do that, at less than fifty, Jesus is claiming to have lived on this earth before Abraham (8:52 and 57), is to be as crass as Nicodemus who understands rebirth as an old man entering his mother’s womb a second time (3:4).24 4. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.” In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God. Buzzard, pp. 93-97, Dana, Letter 21, pp. 169-171, Morgridge, pp. 120-21, Norton, pp. 242-246, Snedeker, pp. 416-418 From the Book – One God and One Lord

Concerning John 3:13

http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/john3.htm

[Dunno]

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2006,22:27)

Yes Cubes. The Father is Jesus's God and or God. Although Jesus is not the Most High, he is a divine being. His nature is from God. He did partake of human nature when he came to earth however, and in that sense he was a man.

Hi! T8

You are absolutely correct in saying, “The Father is Jesus's God and or God”.

But, subsequent to that statement, your further comments are, (if you don't mind me saying so), rather bizarre.

You stated, “He is a divine being”. This can only be true if you also declare that Jesus BECAME such as he was the First Begotten of the New Creation. Jesus was NOT born on the face of the earth as 'divine'. He was born a natural man.

You stated, “His nature is from God”. This can also only be true if you add that for Jesus too, “old things pass away, behold all things become new”.

You said, “He did partake of human nature”. Jesus was first born as a Son of Man' and then matured and developed under the guidance and intervention of His Heavenly Father (God) to become the 'Christ' and a 'Son of God'.

Does not your Bible clearly state that YOU are to develop and mature into a son of god too? In the same manner and way this occurs in YOUR being, it also occurred in the life of Jesus. This is why Jesus is the Forerunner … our Brother. This is why He is the First Born of the New Creation. You and I are the Second Born and the Third Born and so forth.

[seminarian]

Hi Nick & H,

I've discussed John 1:1 with the Pastor of Education at the church I serve, with the following comments:

There are no capitals or lower case in the original Greek manuscripts, (codices).  Therefore capitalization was placed there by the translators.  Here is the proper sequence or order of the Greek words in:

John 1:1-

“In the beginning was the word and the word was toward God and God was the word.” This does not denote personification any more than “the wisdom of God” or the “spirit of truth” used in similar scriptures.  The Greek  “Logos” is translated as “word” but it also has other meanings such as “thought”, (See Bullinger's Companion Bible).  So it is easy to translate this as God's thoughts taking on flesh in the form of Christ Jesus as Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God.

Now when we say “Jesus is God”, (I agree but by the Hebrew meaning of the word), remember what our Lord told the Pharisees who accused him of making himself EQUAL TO GOD because he said he is the Son of God.  He aptly quoted Psalm 82:6 as follows:

“I have said, “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”  (Psalm 82:6)  The English word God is tanslated from the Greek word Theos which means placer or disposer.

Anyone to whom the Father gives such an office of placer or disposer is a God.  Our Lord Jesus made this clear in defining what his is “Godship” which was clearly understood among the nation Israel. Jesus partially quoted this Psalm and further said:

'Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods?'  If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came, are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that you are blasheming,' seeing that I said, “Son of God am I'?

So our Lord set them straight as thier thinking was just as twisted as people's today.

Here's another example.  In Exodus 7:1, God told Moses that He would make him GOD to Pharaoh and Aaron would be Moses' prophet.  Moses was given that appointment of authority over  Pharaoh for that time.  Yes, he was a placer or disposer just as Christ quoted Psalm 82:6. Christ is the ULTIMATE ruler appointed by God!

So it is important to remember that the word God can have other meanings and that is what has tripped up trinitarians.  They completely ignore the fact that there is also the Hebrew meaning of God, other than pertaining to worthless idols.

Our Lord and King Christ Jesus has been MADE equal to God and GIVEN all authority on earth and in heaven but as H said here :

“Will Jesus remain God. No.

1 Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

One last point H, I don't believe God was turning away from Jesus on the cross when he said My God, why have thou forsaken me”.  Read Psalm 22:1 and then read the last line of verse 31 “for he has done it”, which are like Jesus' last words “It is finished”.  It is a vivid and accurate depiction of the crucifixtion!

The Psalms were so commonly known and recited that if a Rabbi said the first line, the rest of the congregation would repeat the remainder.  I believe this is what Christ was doing.  He was reciting the prophecy about himself as revealed to King David.  God would never turn away from someone who was doing His will.  It was NOT Jesus' will to die on the cross but he did it for love of the Father and us.

Great discussion,

Semmy

[seminarian]

Adam Pastor,

I've heard people in the Way use the same misguided logic and interpretation.  They too say Jesus' “beginning” was in the womb of Mary. They say he was simply in God's “foreknowledge” just like us.

I don't think so. I have asked them to then explain all the verses which clearly have Christ saying he has come down from heaven, is RETURNING to the Father, emptied himself and took the form of a slave, etc.  Sorry but I can't make claims like Christ did unless I want to be considered a crack pot.

Here's just one verse that people like yourself can NEVER explain, nor do the ever try to when asked:

Jesus Prayer to the Father:

And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. (John 17:5)

Now I don't know about you, but I didn't enjoy ANY glory before I existed because there is no GLORY in foreknowledge.  There is also no being present with God in foreknowledge.  

This is simply more cult propoganda by one Dr. Weirwille whom deceived people like yourself, hailed as a prophet.  He claimed that God audibly spoke to him just as if “you were talking to me right here.”  Uh huh.  Joseph Smith,(founder of the Mormons) and Charles Taze Russell, (founder of the JW's) made similar claims.  I regret to say these are simply teachings of demons.  You also fail the test of the spirits because you say Jesus Christ was made in Mary and not COME in the flesh.  To COME in the flesh, you have to have been somewhere else first and in another form before that!  Read this:

1 John 4:2  ” This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has COME in the flesh is from God.”

Nick, thanks for sharing your insights on this verse with me.  It has truly been an eye opener.

Semmy

[Adam Pastor]

Quote (“They never told me this in church!” @ Greg S. Deuble, p. 129-130)

Historically, the particular “antichristian spirit” John seems to have warned against was Docetism (from the Greek dokeo meaning to suppose or to seem). This form of Greek Gnosticism claimed that Jesus only seemed or appeared to have a human body. … To combat this dangerous doctrine John wrote (and this time let us render the translation a little nearer to what John actually wrote): “In this way you know the spirit of the God. Every spirit which is confessing Jesus Christ in flesh having come is from the [true] God. And every spirit which is not confessing that Jesus is not from God.” Notice two things in particular. Firstly, our English versions say Jesus Christ came “in the flesh” but the Greek text states simply “in flesh.” It means that Jesus Christ was a real human being. He did not just seem to have, or appear to be, flesh and blood. He was fully human, 100% man. Secondly, every spirit that does not confess that (particular) Jesus is not of God. The definite article before Jesus has a demonstrative force and must not be overlooked. Every spirit which is not confessing that kind of Jesus – an “in flesh” or human Jesus – is not from the true God.

Quote (“The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound @ A. Buzzard & C. Hunting, p. 129)

We suggest that the tendency to obscure the humanity of Christ arose in opposition to the central and essentially simple New Testament affirmation of Jesus as Messiah, the second Adam, supernaturally conceived, yet coming into existence in the womb of his mother. … The germ of later Trinitarian theology … Should it be ascribed … to a distortion of their writings caused by the speculative tendency of Greek philosophy? This influence was apparently already at work when John, writing at the end of the first century, pointedly emphasizes, against an incipient Gnostic docetism, the humanity of Jesus (1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). He came en sarki “as a human being” not “into a human body” which is a very different matter.

seminarian, maybe one should do a little more homework before accusing someone of misguided logic or failing to test spirits; such accusations are not conducive for generating discussion if that is your goal!

BTW, there is no place in Scripture that speaks of Jesus RETURNING to GOD.

Who is Jesus, page 25

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=240

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Dec. 23 2004,11:33)

The Greek word used in the scripture does NOT mean going back or went back It simply means “go”. The translation you have quoted is trinitarian-biased; hence, they have added the word 'back' to give the false impression of Jesus going back to the Father. The Greek word used in John 16:28 is: 4198. poreuomai, por-yoo'-om-ahee; mid. from a der. of the same as G3984; to traverse, i.e. travel (lit. or fig.; espec. to remove [fig. die], live, etc.);–depart, go (away, forth, one's way, up), (make a, take a) journey, walk. (BTW, the same 'trick/falsity' is done in the modern bibles' translation of John 13:3, where again the word 'back' is added or the word 'return…' is used. However, the greek word is: 5217. hupago, hoop-ag'-o; from G5259 and G71; to lead (oneself) under, i.e. withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), lit. or fig.:–depart, get hence, go (a-) way.) In John 16:28, Jesus is simply saying that he came from the Father and he was about to leave this world and go to the Father. 1) To come from the Father … is to be read in the same sense that John the Baptist was sent from GOD [John 1.6]. Although, John the Baptist, was sent from GOD, he did not pre-exist. He was born into this world (came into this world). The same goes for Jesus of Nazareth. 2) To 'come into this world' is a synonymous expression of the phrase, to be 'born into this world'. See (John 1:9)  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Every human being has come into this world. Did they pre-exist in Heaven or any other place? NO! The same goes for the man Christ Jesus. (John 6:14)  Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. The people were not looking for an pre-existing prophet. They simply knew that one day, 'that Prophet' would be born into this world i.e. come into the world. Here, they confess that Jesus of Nazareth, the man before them, is that Prophet. (John 11:27)  She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. The same goes for Martha. Here she confesses that Jesus is the Messiah, the one promised by GOD, who would come into the world. Compare … (John 16:21)  A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. (John 18:37)  Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Born into the world = Come into the world Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of GOD, the Prophet … who was to one day, come into the world i.e. via Birth, like every other human (except of course, Adam and Eve). (Isa 9:6)  For unto us a child is born, … (Gal 4:4)  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 3) Jesus was to 'go' to the Father. There are Greek words in the NT which mean to go back, went back, return (e.g. anakampto, epistrepho, hupostrepho, epanerchomai, etc). But they are never used when describing Christ's entrance into Heaven. It ought to be clear that when Christ's speaks of coming down from Heaven; he is speaking figuratively; esp., since he likens himself to be the True Bread/Manna from GOD. 'From Heaven' is used as a synonym to mean to come or be sent 'From GOD' (James 1:17)  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. This includes Christ Jesus, who is GOD's gift to the world. However Jas 1:17 is not meant to be taken to mean that good gifts literally descend from Heaven; it means that good gifts come from GOD, and therefore, are figuratively, poetically, described as coming down from the Father. Jesus asked … (Mat 21:25)  The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, say ing, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? Again, Jesus' audience understood that the phrase, from Heaven means from GOD. Jesus asked, was John's Baptism, ordained/commissioned/sent of GOD. And just as John's Baptism is ordained/commissioned/sent of GOD i.e. from Heaven; likewise Jesus the Messiah was ordained/commissioned/sent of GOD i.e. from Heaven! Even as John, his predecessor was! [John 1.6] (John 3:27)  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. In other words, a man cannot receive anything except it is given him from GOD. 'From Heaven' =  'From GOD' Therefore, the reason we know that Jesus' going to the Father is NOT to be taken figuratively, is because the NT clearly informs us, that Jesus literally ascended into Heaven itself. From whence, we await his Return. (Heb 9:24)  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: In conclusion then … Jesus … a) came from the Father i.e. the Father brought him into existence and commissioned him to be the Messiah (cp. Jere 1.5) b) He came into this world i.e. he was born into this world like everyone else (cp. John 1.9 … every man that cometh into the world.) c) And he went literally to GOD. He ascended to Heaven to be in the presence of GOD. He had never literally been in Heaven before! Neither did he pre-exist anymore then any other human pre-exists Hope the above clarifies John 16:27-28.

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam,
To say “pre exists” shows a basic belief, that real life for humans is only what is temporal and visible. It suggests that “existence ” is only possible as flesh for us.
Jesus was a man, as shown in many verses such as twice in Acts 2.22-23.
He can be considered “according to the flesh”as Paul does in 2Cor 5.16

But it is also true that he was ;
With the Father in the beginning
Emptied himself
Was sent from heaven
Came in flesh partaking of our fleshly tent nature.
Was a vessel for the treasure of the Spirit of God.
Returned to God in heaven to be clothed in a new heavenly body.
Is now a lifegiving Spirit to his body on earth.
Will return to rescue us as the man from heaven.

I realise you do not accept some of these things and have already prepared “answers ” to scripture on these matters but for the sake of others

1Peter 1.20
” For he was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God..”

[He’s Coming in the Clouds]

Dear Adam,

I agree with Nick that Jesus was before the creation. Jesus is the begotten Son of God. He was begotten in the beginning even before the heavens and the earth and the Father created all things by the Son and through the Son. Jesus is the Word. In the beginning was the Word. Jesus is the beginning and the end of creation. He is the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the end, the first and the last. If you study the scriptures carfully, it is easy to see that Jesus did preexist creation, for creation was spoken into existance. But in the beginning was the Word.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Dunno @ July 05 2006,17:38)

Quote (t8 @ June 25 2006,22:27) Yes Cubes. The Father is Jesus's God and or God. Although Jesus is not the Most High, he is a divine being. His nature is from God. He did partake of human nature when he came to earth however, and in that sense he was a man. Hi! T8 You are absolutely correct in saying, “The Father is Jesus's God and or God”. But, subsequent to that statement, your further comments are, (if you don't mind me saying so), rather bizarre. You stated, “He is a divine being”. This can only be true if you also declare that Jesus BECAME such as he was the First Begotten of the New Creation. Jesus was NOT born on the face of the earth as 'divine'. He was born a natural man. You stated, “His nature is from God”. This can also only be true if you add that for Jesus too, “old things pass away, behold all things become new”. You said, “He did partake of human nature”. Jesus was first born as a Son of Man' and then matured and developed under the guidance and intervention of His Heavenly Father (God) to become the 'Christ' and a 'Son of God'. Does not your Bible clearly state that YOU are to develop and mature into a son of god too? In the same manner and way this occurs in YOUR being, it also occurred in the life of Jesus. This is why Jesus is the Forerunner … our Brother. This is why He is the First Born of the New Creation. You and I are the Second Born and the Third Born and so forth.

Hi dunno,
Jesus is the unique, only begotten Son of God, who was with God and was sent into the world. He had divine nature according to the inner aspect as Phil 2.5-7 shows us, advantages of which he shed to partake of flesh.
And
1Jn 4.9
“By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through him”
v10
“In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
v13
” By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us because He has given us of His Spirit, and we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the saviour of the world”

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Dunno @ July 06 2006,12:38)

Hi! T8 You are absolutely correct in saying, “The Father is Jesus's God and or God”. But, subsequent to that statement, your further comments are, (if you don't mind me saying so), rather bizarre. You stated, “He is a divine being”. This can only be true if you also declare that Jesus BECAME such as he was the First Begotten of the New Creation. Jesus was NOT born on the face of the earth as 'divine'. He was born a natural man. You stated, “His nature is from God”. This can also only be true if you add that for Jesus too, “old things pass away, behold all things become new”. You said, “He did partake of human nature”. Jesus was first born as a Son of Man' and then matured and developed under the guidance and intervention of His Heavenly Father (God) to become the 'Christ' and a 'Son of God'. Does not your Bible clearly state that YOU are to develop and mature into a son of god too? In the same manner and way this occurs in YOUR being, it also occurred in the life of Jesus. This is why Jesus is the Forerunner … our Brother. This is why He is the First Born of the New Creation. You and I are the Second Born and the Third Born and so forth.

Hi Dunno,

I believe that Jesus is a divine being. But he emptied himself of his former glory and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death.

In other words I believe that Jesus came in the flesh.
I do not believe that Jesus is the flesh, or that God came in the flesh as many seem to think.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Logos was in the beginning with God and the Logos was divine. The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. And in Revelation 19:13 it says:

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

So the Word was divine, became flesh, and now he is back to his former glory (and some).

[Ramblinrose]

Other translations of 1 Peter 1:20

20 He was pre-destined indeed to this work, even before the creation of the world, but has been plainly manifested in these last days for the sake of you who, through Him, 21 are faithful to God, who raised Him from among the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are resting upon God. (wey)

19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted—Christ’s—
20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, 21 who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God. (YLT)

0 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (NKJV)

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. (AV)

[kenrch]

Is Jesus my God? Jesus is just what scriptures says He is, He is Lord of Lords, King of kings. Is He greater than the Father? No! Is Jesus my God? Yes! What does the scripture say? Heb. 1:8 Therefore God (Jesus), thy God (Yahweh), hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Jesus is my God and Lord of my life. He is also my brother. When “our” God is finished the work of His (Our) Father then He will turn everything over to the Father Yahweh (Jehovah).Col 1:12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
Yahweh and everything in Him belongs to His first born Son, who is God of the coming Kingdom in which His brothers are now in. This world is not “our” world. We are registered as citizens of the New Kingdom (church) of Christ our Lord and God. Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, However Jesus has a God, His and” our ” Father. The over all picture is that The God of the New Kingdom will turn everything over to God the Father. Therefore Jesus (who is god of the new kingdom) is our Lord being the first born of the dead and is in charge of the Kingdom of God. Col 1:19 For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell; 1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. Col 1:12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
Are you going to be in the first resurrection? I'm trying to run the race like I've already won! 1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? Even so run; that ye may attain. The race isn't over, I don't think anyone knows who won, God knows!
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I pray the Father keeps me and gives me new truth everyday. Who did Jesus say to pray too? I pray to the same God that is Jesus' God!

[He’s Coming in the Clouds]

One thing I would like to add kenrch is that when all things have been subdued, the Son will be subject unto the Father. He at the present has the full authority of the Godhead, but there is only one God and when God's plan is complete, the Son will relinquish the Godhead authority back to the Father, so the Father can be all in all.

1 Cor. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1 Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[kenrch]

Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ July 06 2006,00:17)

One thing I would like to add kenrch is that when all things have been subdued, the Son will be subject unto the Father. He at the present has the full authority of the Godhead, but there is only one God and when God's plan is complete, the Son will relinquish the Godhead authority back to the Father, so the Father can be all in all. 1 Cor. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1 Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That's what scripture says. Jesus will surely be our brother. He is the first born of the new kingdom. He will be king of kings. Will He will still be God being the only begotten of the Father?

[seminarian]

Pastor Adam,

I'm sorry if I struck a nerve.  Nice smoke screen but obviously what I said about the Way and Wierwille applies to you.  After all I had to say, all you could only come up with is the Bible doesn't speak of Jesus returning to the Father?  Is that a fact?  

Christ speaks of himself as the bread who came down from heaven. “For the bread of God is he who COMES DOWN from heaven.”  ( John 6:31)  Then he says, “I am COMING to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name…” (John 17:11)  So that is not returning to the Father to you?  O.k.

As I said, more teaching of demons.  For your information, I have actually personally corresponded with Sir Anthony Buzzard.  He has a great mind but is not infallible in his studies.  He's also somewhat eccentric.  However, you have not responded to my question which all people who reason as you do have failed to answer.  AGAIN, how about a response to this?:

Jesus Prayer to the Father:

And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. (John 17:5)

Now I don't know about you, but I didn't enjoy ANY glory before I existed because there is no GLORY in foreknowledge.  There is also no being present with God in foreknowledge.

So you know what I said is true, that is why you diverted your answer to everything but what I asked you to respond to.  Well, how about an answer?  Thus far you're still flunking the test of the spirits as per 1 John 4:3.  

Semmy

[seminarian]

Kenrch,

Excellent post and use of scripture. Your calling our Lord Jesus God as meaning placer or disposer is correct. The Father GAVE Christ that office and PLACED all things under his feet. Here's the gem in your post:

” However Jesus has a God, His and” our ” Father. The over all picture is that The God of the New Kingdom will turn everything over to God the Father.”

I'm telling you, I said this same thing to the pastor of education at my church. He bristled and said, “No”. I was incredulous. Even when I showed him Rev. 3:12 where after being exalted Jesus is STILL saying he has a God, he refused to accept it because he is so steeped in the trinity, co-equal swill. He is operating on belief in that doctrine first and foremost, therefore rejecting any scripture which does not fit into that box. So he is rejecting the word of God, not me.

Christ will always be subject to the Father and said that true worshippers would worship THE FATHER. Now we can and should ask Christ for things as he is our only mediator. However, he has always focused on glorifying the Father and we should too.

Your post blessed me tonight!

Semmy

[kenrch]

Thank Jesus our LORD! Only He deserves any praise! And thank you brother it's nice that I said something right

[Dunno]

Quote (t8 @ July 05 2006,17:38)

wrote:

Hi! T8
and, everyone

FIrst of all, I want to sincerely thank you, T8, for your patient and kind repy to my Post. After I submitted the Post, I detected the rude manner in which I began stating my opinion but it was too late to change things. So, you have my sincere apologies if my choice of words may have offended you … or anyone else for that matter.

While drafting this, I have taken some excerpts from several articles which I recently had translated.

The true man in the capacity of 'Son of God' was not revealed during the first creation. Yet he was already in the 'Womb of the Fathers'. In this respect the Lord testified of Himself: 'Before Abraham was, I am' (John 8:58). The first mankind as a whole has a place in the eternal purpose of the mighty Creator. This means that He has to reveal the true man of whom our Lord Jesus as the only Son of God is the First Born.

From among this mankind, God particularly called the patriarchs of whom Abraham was one. Because of his faith and dedication to this calling he was not only called the founding father of the natural people of Israel, but also the 'father of all believers' (Rom 4:11,12).

Abraham and all the other persons in the bible, occupied a place God meant for them so that Christ could be born. Literally and sequentially they came before the Lord Jesus, but spiritually and essentially, Christ as man infilled with the Spirit of God came first. For example: man was already involved in God's plan before the earth, plants and animals existed for they were created to enable the birth of man.

To reveal the true man, God created the first man. He is also called 'son of God' but it means something else than the title the Lord Jesus is called by (Luke 3:38). Here it refers to the first Adam as the first born of a completely natural mankind. The first Adam and his wife Eve were not born in the way other people were, but they were created as husband and wife closely related to the elements of the visible creation.

The name Eve (taken from man) refers to the close relationship of woman with her husband (Gen 1:26-31). This reflects the close relationship God meant for man with Himself. That is why the beginning the creation of Adam and Eve onwards is a shadow image of the birth of the last Adam (the Lord Jesus) and the church (Eve). The church as 'bride of the Lamb' is expressed by preaching the Word of Truth that in turn was created to the decree of the 'Father of lights' (His 'eternal plan').

We are now witnessing the next step in the Plan of Salvation which, according to the plan of God, is the actual revelation of the 'Body of Christ'. That is why the 'first born' of the new creation are mentioned in connection with the 'Body of Christ' (Jacob 1:18; IPeter 1:23). The notion 'first born' means that more is to follow. The eternal plan of the Creator will not end before mankind and the whole of creation for her sake, will function according to His purpose. The process of development is to accomplish the fullness of God for the church and afterwards for the whole of mankind. The apostle Paul calls it the 'bath of rebirth'. To complete this process the 'renewal through the holy Spirit 'is required. (Titus 3:4-6)

The Creator was not surprised when the first man fell. Above all the eternal God envisioned the image of the true man. This 'son of His love' is the image of the invisible God. The first (natural) man is a reflection of this new man in Christ. To bring forth the true man the Creator spoke only once: 'Let us create man in our image and to our likeness' (Gen 1;26).

God created a whole, innumerable and in itself immensely varied mankind out of the first man. For this mankind the same principle applies for each separate individual. The development of this mankind will go on until it has reached the desired completion.

The Creator did not abandon His plan after the Fall. His Spirit lived on in the revelation of man as the image of God. The devil was not able to slow or block this goal by his seduction of the first human pair (Gen 3). Despite this 'fall', God kept on loving mankind. He gave man hope by committing Himself through promises and covenants along biblical lines. However, the fulfilment of this promises and the covenants would not come into being without struggle, pain and effort because of the hate and opposition of the evil spirits.

In the 'fullness of time', at God's chosen time, the First Born of the 'seed of the woman' on which the promise of God in former ages was based, was to be revealed. God's Spirit approves this seed and is therefore developing the true mankind.

The first Adam (and Eve) covers his offspring in the form of the whole of natural mankind, but the number the Creator has in mind, is not complete yet. God created the natural people of Israel as a central nation, to fulfil His promise to prompt the formation of the true man.

The old (first) testament (Covenant) of the Bible particularly deals with the developments of these earthly people of Israel. The Mediator in the (shadow) covenant between God and the first man(kind) is the law (of Moses) which was given to this people (Galatians 3:19,20; Hebrew 8:1-5). Through this people God sealed a 'marriage' with the first mankind. In the 'fullness of time' (Galatians 4:4) He created the First Born of the new (last) mankind by means of this woman. In the 'offspring' of this last Adam the 'spiritual' people of Israel or the 'Body of Christ' plays a central role.

Therefore, it is not the first Adam, but our Lord Jesus who is the First Born and the 'prototype' of mankind God from the beginning intended. For the same reason our Lord Jesus is called the 'First Born of the whole creation'. Physically He was not alive before Adam, as claimed by the so-called pre-existence doctrines. But all the same, in the eternal plan of the mighty Creator He was and is and remains forever the First Born and the 'beginning of the creation of God' (Rev 3:14).

Before anything else the true man was always the object of God's eternal love. Only for the sake of the development of this man all things both visible and invisible were created and are meaningful (Col 1:15-20). The whole realm of spirits (angels) too was created with the intention to serve man in growing into his high destiny in the plan of God (Heb 1:14).

The first man (Adam and his offspring) exists to fulfil the assignment of the Creator to 'rule' the whole creation, animate and inanimate. By means of a harmonious growth and with the subservience of the army of angels the true man should develop out of the first man. In a deeper sense this is the way of rebirth that ac
cording to the bible is necessary if man is to see the kingdom of God and enter it (John 3).

After a seemingly long road 'the first bride' of God was made ready to give birth to the 'First' born out of the 'seed'. Immediately after the fall of the first couple, God prophesied about this 'seed'. This seed would eventually exist, but only after many misfortunes brought about by the 'snake' (devil or satan, Gen 3:15,16).

The 'first woman' of God is the first mankind formed by the offspring of Adam and Eve. With the help of the lineage of Seth – Noah – Abraham, God created a central tribe. Thus, He created the people of Israel from the Fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to which He had attached Himself by promises and tokens. And He chooses this people to bring forth the promised 'seed'.

They were 'born' in Egypt under slavery and oppression. In order to lead them out of slavery and into the shadow freedom yet of the glorified children of God, He procreated Moses. This man lay the foundation of the religious pattern of the shadow people Israel by means of a direct assignment under the inspiration of God (Gen 15; Gen 26:23,24; Gen 28:10; Gen 35:9-15).

Protected by laws and rituals this 'people' was to become mature, ready for a 'marriage' with the Creator. Eventually 'in the fullness of time' the first 'woman' of God brought forth the 'seed' that was already promised to Eve, through the chosen natural people of Israel (Gen 3:9-20). The offspring of Adam and Eve had become like the 'stars of heaven' and the 'sand on the shore of the sea'. But the Creator had in mind a specific child, the one called 'the seed of the promise' (Gal 3:19).

In the court of Eden man and consequently the whole visible creation fell under the claim of sin and death ('the earth is cursed because of you' Gen 3:17). The 'garden of Eden' is the image of the whole mankind in which two figures play a central role. In the allegory of the garden of Eden they are called 'the tree of life' and the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil'.

To take away the claim of sin and death and the sins of the world blood would have to be spilled. In fact the whole offspring of the first man would have to be sacrificed in order to meet the claim of death. For this the Lord Jesus told the parable of the merchant and the pearls (Matt 13:45,46). After the fall all the pearls were 'sold under the power of sin' and had fallen under the claim of Death through the sin of Adam (Rom 5:12-14;7:14). As 'merchant' of the 'beautiful pearls' the devil have misled people and brought them under the claim of Death. He was convinced to have man cut off from his godly destiny.

However, when the devil, the lustful merchant, was confronted with a very precious pearl he became obsessed with. In exchange of all his other pearls, this 'Pearl' was handed over to him. He thought he had won because he knew he was up against the sinless and therefore legal 'heir' of God, the man who is called the 'Son of the Almighty' (Luke 1:32-35).
This man would enable him to get the throne of God and to become equal to the Almighty, so he thought. (Isaiah 14:14). Blinded by passion he did not understand that the death of the first man would cause his own downfall. He himself, nor his servants did not know this, otherwise they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory, central in the 'hidden wisdom of God' (ICor 2:6-9).

The Lord Jesus on the other hand was aware of this plan and surrendered himself to it even if it would lead to his death. He is the 'Son of God', created by God and infilled with His Spirit. Moreover He is the 'Son of men' and with that a full son of Maria and Adam, the first man of the whole natural 'first mankind'.

Because the Lord Jesus was as a man fulfilled with the Spirit of His Father, He occupied a special position: He had the 'liking of God', that is, He was the 'Son of God' according to the eternal plan of God. He fully accepted this position and subjected Himself to the plan of God. He realised that the service of the earthly people of God was only a shadow of the true reality. He had understood and integrated the prophecy of David which says that God did not ask for visible sacrifices which could not take away 'the sin of the world'.

Through His obedience and faith the Lord Jesus was infilled with the Spirit of God. Yet He did not think of His godliness in the 'form of God' as something he robbed. On the contrary. He freely lay down this glory and took on the form of a slave. He emptied Himself because He understood that the 'sins of the world' should be carried in the same way the first man brought 'sin' into the world. The offspring of the first Adam was degraded to the position of a slave because of sin (Gen 3; Philippians 2:5-9).

The Lord Jesus is the First Born of the last mankind. The apostle Paul called Him the last Adam of which the first Adam is a shadow image. (1Cor 15:45) Our Lord was and is the first man who had part of the fullness of God. According to Isaiah's prophecy whom he appropriated to Himself by faith during his walk on earth, He knew that He would suffer, that He would be crushed to death to meet the will of God. (Isaiah 53). Owing to his faith and according acts, He was exalted to Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). After his victory on the cross and his triumph over Death, he climbed up to the throne of the father, vested with godly authority and appearance.

As Lord of the universe, possessing all power in heaven and on earth, He is still pouring out the Spirit of God – the promise of the Father – into the hearts of thirsty believers. The result is that This Spirit will touch others because the believer has become a fountain of living water (John 7:37-39).

The so called 'Secret of God' includes God's plan for the whole creation. God's plan shows a clear line revealed to 'children' according to God's will (Cp Matthew 11:25,26), but hidden to many religious wise and sensible men.

Paul wrote in Rom 11:36, “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things”. If, in our thoughts, we go back to the beginning, we end up with God. Something very similar can be found in 1Cor 8:6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him “. All things originate from God.

John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made”.

Something came to be born in the heart of God. It formed in God's being and from the depths of God. In God “the Word” was formed and that 'word' is the substance of all things which were to be. God worked on a plan. In His inner self a fantastically marvelous idea evolved; a thought containing all. And it was with God. It was hidden with God as a yet an unspoken thought. The word was with God; the word was God. That plan, that unspoken word, is what formed the beginning. Before God spoke one word, that word -we mean the complete plan of God- was in Him, and God had thought of everything, (including even the smallest details), and considered and concluded to Himself: this is it! This is the plan I will accomplish.

In the beginning, this word was with God and all things came to be of that word, (this thought), and became the basis of God's plan. The Apostle John stated that without this Word was not anything made that was made. We can see just how deep and profound was the insight which John had in the eternal purposes and intents of God. It formed the very basis of his thinking and the starting-point of his gospel and letters, (John1:1 and 1John 1:1). We should want to posture ourselves on this basis also; on the origin
al word of God.

Insight in the original is extremely important. If we understand what God's original intentions were, it is possible to recognize and realize everything that differs. It is a proper focus on the original which allows us a proper view of the conclusion when pondering the eternal purposes of God. God continues to work and carries out His plans from out of His original intentions. His actions are always based on the “word that is from the beginning” and are aimed to complete realization of that word, that plan. Insight into the original affords a view of the completion. Also, the other way around. This also offers us today, as New Testament believers, to orient ourselves. Where are we from? Where are we going?

John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word”. This verse tells us about the time preceding Genesis 1:1. The creator started executing His plan only after everything concerning this plan had completely matured. It is because of this that His work can never be stopped. God didn't start on impulse. He prepared everything in an uninterrupted peace and confidence which characterizes His very being. God is absolutely confident about His plan.

What did God think? What did the word contain? Can we hear and understand it? Amos 4:13 tells us that, “God, declareth unto man what is His thought”. While we are presently unable to be entirely complete about this, we do however have valuable insights. We can, from the works of God, construct the original plan of God. Therefore, we now understand that God wanted to give from Himself; He wanted us to be a part of Him. God wanted a partner to whom He could give Himself completely in love and in whom He could rejoice until eternity. This partner would be able to return His love and have an enormous amount of possibilities and thus God would never lose interest in him. This partner would be able to be a part of all of God's plans.

This partner, of whom God was thinking, would be on His level. A partner able to live in an atmosphere of pure love and who would, from out of their free will, dedicate all their created abilities and talents to a relationship in complete dependence on God. God wasn't thinking of a second God, but He thought of a worthy partner that would fit Him perfectly and harmoniously. A woman to God, after His image and likeness. We could describe it as “complementary” to God; completely belonging to one another, in beings and works.

God pictured Himself a being that would fulfill all His needs. He saw a being with unimaginable, never ending possibilities. A being with a heart that could love Him. A being that could develop in many respects, in quality and quantity. A being that would manifest itself in infinite variations and in many personalities so God would be able to manifest Himself completely in him. A being in whom God could be “all in all”, (1Cor 15:28). This total of personalities could live together formed as one. Each individually and together forming a unity in a narrow love relationship with God. This was the substance of God's motivation and to which everything visible and invisible evolve. This would come forth from Him to be created by Him and exist for the glory of His blessedness.

Of what being was God thinking? God was thinking of man; of you and me. All of God's plans and purposes are based on that thought: on God's longing for man. It was man, who would be created as “God's son”; born from God, and to God, and would grow into an adult son. Man, with his (by God) created potential to grow into a mankind, who as God's wife would live with Him until eternity.

In order to acquire this woman, God created everything that would be needed. In His thoughts He prepared the greatest work possible. A perfect work. A creation, a grand Godly creation. Since the beginning God had us envisioned. There would be a heaven and an earth, richly and abundantly provided with all possibilities and means to prepare that man for his godly destiny. It is for that purpose that God created the heaven and the earth, (Gen.1:1).

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Gen 1:1). God knew what exactly He started when He began creating the heaven and the earth. This would be the setting, in which God would fulfill His plan with man, mankind. From that very moment until now, God still hasn't changed and neither will He ever change. Our God continues to work firmly on a complete realization of all, that was with Him in the beginning. In you and me at every moment God sees that potential candidate, -that unique being-, that is destined to mature and develop into that godly level where we are revealed as the bride of God and in whom God is all things in all.

While studying God's deeds of creation in Genesis 1, we note that God does not do everything at once. Rather, God chose to pursue a unique principle of growth and development which offered unprecedented and unlimited possibilities. It is through this godly principle that God realizes His plan. In certain growth stages and developmental periods a maturing process develops. In a certain stage things can come to be very suddenly. However, this always is part of the larger entirety.

God wanted to acquire His partner. If He would have created it ready-made, there wouldn't have been anything to “acquire”. In this way, God works steadily to total realization of His original target. Through the growth and development of talents that were created by God, man could enter into a close relationship with God and evolve into a mature independent being. This independent being could volunteer to follow after God's intentions and needs with all that is in him through free will and love. God worked this out in His infinite wisdom.

We also note that God always works in a particular climate. With God exists complete calmness, complete security and unshakable faith in His own plan and work which is accompanied by an inexhaustible amount of energy. We should both admire God in this with respect and honor, and also find a basis for our own life in this knowledge. It is good to remind ourselves constantly of this. It can hardly be described with words. This all is in God and from God. We can cooperate with God's ultimate intentions for us from out of this same calmness and security. God's work will reach completion in our lives, for God wants it. God will succeed!

God created the angels in a certain connection, a certain arrangement, through which in heaven a kingdom came to be where God was King. This is the beginning of God's Kingdom. God as creator, as King of all the angels, carries, supports, contains, controls and inpires all angels.

The world of the angels is a harmoniously formed entirety, in which God is the centre, and in which everyone has his own task, and has his own unique place and position, in which he shows specific abilities and skills. In this arrangement groups can be identified, that are commanded by principalities, princes and archangels. Daniel 12:1 tells us about Michael the great prince. So he is a prince amidst the angels. He leads a large group of angels, also called “his” angels (Re.12:7). Jude calls Michael an archangel, a prominent angel. Paul too at a certain time speaks of an archangel (1Thess.4:16). In Luke 1:19 is spoken of the angel Gabriel who stands in the presence of God .

In Revelation 18:1 an angel is mentioned, having great power. When Paul speaks in Ephesians 6:12 of ” principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places “; he speaks of ranks and classes in the empire of darkness. Because this entire empire, by the fall of Lucifer, came to be through the originally by God created angels, we can deduce from the insight of Paul, that these different levels already extisted before Lucifer's fall, and still exists in the angels that remained faithfull. This thought is confirmed in Colossians 1:16; it says:” For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth
, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him . So not all angels are alike. They are all ministering spirits; that's how they were created. In the Kingdom of God is reigned by being “everyone's servant”. The angels work together in complete peacefulness and great joy, benevolence and harmony, with loyalty and faith. That is how we may picture ourselves the tenths of thousands (some translations say: innumerable company) of angels, of who Hebr. 12:22 tells us. That is true theocracy. That's how God intended, thought of it and created it.

Why did God create these myriads of angels? They are all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation (Heb.1:14) God gives His angels charge over thee to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone (Ps.91:11,12). These positive minded heroes, that excel in strength, that do His commandments, are constantly ministering you and me. They want nothing else than to minister us, so we can go where God wants us to be. Let us, in the time in which we live now, become more and more aware of the presence of these intensely good ministering spirits in our lives. Their powers are enormously great; they are completely fit up to their task. They wish to support man in all good works, strengthen him, protect and save. At all times we can pray to God for support and guidance by these celestial servants, who were created for the good of man. Let us thank God for all these angels. In relationship with with Him and His Son Jesus Christ, and supported, ministered by all holy angels we shall be able to fulfill God's intentions in and with our lives.

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth (Gen 1:26).

An announcement that differs from all previous words of creation. On none of the previous days God had spoken of 'let us'. With the creation of the heaven and the earth no mention is made of others, that would have been involved with the creation. God worked 'alone' Isa 44:24 says. There was noone besides God or with God with whom He consulted, or with whom He did things together: For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? (Rom 11:34). For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood (Ps 33:9). Then why now, at the height of God's acts of creating, this 'let us'? Was there a second person after all? Does this account for the by many believed pre-existent presence of Jesus Christ?

When John begins his gospel with the words: “In the beginning was the Word “, many people without doubt think of the person of Jesus Christ. For this verse 14 is called on: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. They then equal “Word made flesh” to the “Word”. In his first letter John speaks of the word of life. This life was with the Father and was revealed unto us. Here too the 'revealed word of life' is being equalled to what was with the Father. This should be continued in all other texts in which is spoken of the Word. Heb 11:3 says: Through faith we understand that the ages were framed by a word of God, so that the things seen should not have come into being out of the things that appear. This would then mean that not God, but Jesus would be the creator. This however contradicts Isa 44:24 and Isa 45:12. The above method of approach obscures the entire creation, and the place and position of Jesus Christ, His ancestry and birth as well as God's deepest intentions with man.

With the “word” John doesn't point to a “being” between the uncreated God and the created things, but the total of God's plan with man. Based on this all encompassing, perfect, intense good plan, God started creating. It is from this “word” that all words and deeds of creation came forth: the heaven, the angels, the earth, the expanse, the sun, the moon, the stars, the plants, the birds, the fish and all other animals, man. All came to be by this word and based on this word.

After, in a certain stage of the development of man, the greatest angel had fallen, and man too had sinned, God promised the Messiah (Gen 3:15). This too came forth from the word which was with God in the beginning. God still continued to speak and think from His original thoughts and intentions. Jesus came forth from the word too. He is, in the situation that came to be and as we know it now, the centre of God's plan with man. He became the man of God, that God had intended in Genesis 1:26. In Him, the deepest sense of God's word became “flesh and blood”. The by God intended life fully came to be in His existence. That is what John speaks of. The “word made flesh” is based on the “word”, it came forth from it, but cannot be equalled to it. The “word” contains more, more than was revealed in the word made flesh. The entire plan of God with man from the beginning until eternity, with everything that was and is needed, still remains locked inside the “word”.

In Prov 8:22-31 is written about wisdom. The style the biblical author used, could again lead to misunderstanding. Wisdom is being described as a person, said to be created before everything else. The LORD possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old (verse 22). This is parallel to the thought from John 1. The wisdom was a workman at His side (verse 30), Corresponds to the word that was with God. The “wisdom” too contains the total of God's intentions and plans. It is by this word and based on this wisdom God had all these things come into being; that He created the heaven, the first dust particles of the world and determined the foundations of the earth (26, 27, 29). Paul, in his first letter to Corinthians, speaks of Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption (1:30). Here too Christ being “word made flesh” comes up. He is given to us based on the original plan of God, God's wisdom, to which God remained faithful even after man's first sin, and will remain faithful until eternity. God's wisdom contains more than what was revealed in Jesus Christ. For example, God has put the authority of time and seasons in His own authority (Acts 1:7).

The 'let us make man', does not point to a second God, or to the presence of Jesus Christ at that moment. What does it mean? Why speak in plural? This not accidental. It has a deeper meaning. Everything God created until that moment could be of service to what God was about to create now. All the angels would put into action all their abilities and powers to support man(kind) in his development, to minister and accompany, so God's intentions with man would be fulfilled. In that sense God speaks of 'let us', a clear call on the (continuing) dedication of all angels. He makes it clear, to what purpose He created them.

But there is more. From the Sixth Day of creation God never did anything 'on His own'. With the creation of man He started to cooperate. He would lay the foundation, but everything that would come to be on that foundation, could only be accomplished together with man. That's how God, based on His eternal love for man, had determined. Man could in returning his love for God, come into a closer and closer and more and more intimate relationship with God, and become the fulfillment of God's intentions: His partner until eternity. The 'let us' that sounds in the announcement of God's greatest creation, points to the desire of God to come to a joint working from the very first beginning. It shows very beautifully and clearly with what expectations God started realizing His deepest thought. It gives man(kind) from the very beginning something of the future to come, the finalization. The 'being God's
partner'; would, in the complete development to that, already have a concrete meaning. God never did let go of this 'let us', and neither will He ever let go. All that comes to be in man, with man and through man after God's will, is a fruit of this cooperation between man and his God. Jesus too was born after a renewed 'let us'. We shall see this central idea in God's plan for many times to come.

In the announcement of the creation of man God speaks about man “in our image, after our likeness”. In the transcription translation by Dr. Reisel verse 26 is translated as follows: We shall make man(kind) after our image, consistent to us, and they shall have dominion over. So, God speaks of a being, man, that could just as Him and all His angels function in the spiritual world, and who, from this situation and position, would reign the earth. When God, in verse 27, actually starts creating man it says: “And God created man in His image”. This verse clearly tells us by who man was created: by God, by Him alone! In this, the angels could not serve or help God: man himself wasn't there either.

God created man after His image, In the image of God He created him. It doesn't say: “and they created man after their image, in their image they created him”. The plural is only used in the announcement in verse 26. The angels must have watched it, full of expectancy, ready to be sent out by God to be of service to man, and man himself would also be put into action after his creation, but the beginning was a matter of God alone. God created man after His image. In Genesis 5:1 this thought is repeated: ” This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, He(!) made him in the likeness of God.

Man bears the image of God, a son of God, in nature and being. Man has God's likeness, but is not equal to God. God created man with qualities and abilities, that corresponds to what was in Him. He created a human being, that was completely complementary to His own being, with every possibility for a complete and ever lasting relationship. Not a being that was identical to God, but who fitted God harmoniously in every aspect. Besides this all, God laid the earlier mentioned unique principle of growth and evolution in this human being. From this perfect starting point lead by and in relationship with God he could grow into the adulthood, God had pictured: a life on a level worthy to God in a loving and working relationship with God. It is not without a cause that the Psalms-author sings: ” For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet ” (Ps 8:5,6). This does not point to the imperfect natural man, but to the still immature spiritual man (stature). While creating man after His image, God made such a good and perfect basis, that everything, really everything was contained in it that would be needed for a realization of His intentions with man. God did not create a man to be able to create a second man from the first, God created MAN.

In Genesis 1:26 God announces His complete plan with man. Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over all works of My hands; That's how we could summarize it. This announcement of God was so comprehensive, it had such far reaching consequences for the times to come, that only God Himself could see the scope of it. The angels, in that phase, could not have seen all consequences of God's intentions. Peter would later describe:” which things the angels desire to look into (1Pe 1:12). The angels must have experienced of the intense joy that must have gone out from God, when He announced these things. They heard God speak, but not until a later stage did they start to comprehend the essence. To God however, this was the big moment; now would be created of which He had longed for from the beginning. The 'let them have dominion' should be interpreted in all it's fullness. The dominion of man(kind) over all created things is only possible from a heavenly position. Not one being, that “only lives on earth”, is able to comprehend all of life on earth in all it's details, to protect and to preserve. This is only possible for someone, who has a relationship with the Creator of the earth, to someone who finds himself on the same level as that Creator, and who can work with all possibilities that position offers. God, in His announcement already calls upon man to 'climb up', to carry everything together with God, to have dominion. With this God already points to the finalization: man with Him on the throne.

A well known and striking example of this truth is the butterfly in the cocoon. In secret this grows out to adulthood by making use of the caterpillar that has nestled in the same cocoon from which the butterfly emerges and then flies into the sky to live its independent and free life.

Thus, the new man-in-Christ grows through rebirth in 'secret' and under the protection of the natural life, all along making use of the perishable body. In the end this 'perishable and mortal' will be devoured by the imperishable and immortal. All this will happen in the process and completion of rebirth, where the inner man of the believer grows out into the adulthood of the 'image of the first Son' (1Cor 15:49;2Cor 5;Philippians 3:10-16).

The Spirit of God is also called the Spirit of the sonship. The immediate result of the risen First Born is the formation of the 'Body of Christ' by this Spirit as a preparation for the 'fullness of times'. In this 'age' everything in heaven and on earth is made a perfect tool according to the intentions of the Creation. Then there will be many sons of God who together form a 'Body of Jesus Christ'. This is why the scriptures say that He is the 'first among many brethren' (Rom 8:29; Heb 2:10).

The church of Jesus Christ then, develops out of the last Adam (in comparison with Eve who was created out of the first Adam). This is caused by the process of faith, rebirth and the infilling with the Spirit of God and the works of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 9:6-8,25,26;2Cor 6:16; 1Pet 2:9,10). This body of Christ is the 'church of the end times'. Its members are men who are reborn and infilled with the Spirit of God. As part of the process during which God makes all things new, through this church, the whole of mankind shall be restored and become a true tool in God's hands (Rev 21:5). In this new mankind the mighty Creator shall ultimately be all in all (1Cor 15:28).

Regarding the new mankind the Creator only once made known His desire of an eternal (marriage) partner with the words: 'Let us make people to our image and our likeness' (Gen 1:26). Compare these words with what has been said in Revelations 21:5: 'Look, I make all things new' and Revelations 1:8: 'I am the Alpha (beginning} and the Omega' (end). According to this eternal idea, God uses the whole of (the first) man to create the new (last) man. Thus, the godly principle proves again to be true: the eldest (first) will serve the youngest (last).

Right in the beginning of the bible this godly idea is expressed in the image of the marriage between man and woman (Gen 2:24). In the pure marriage the husband uses his wife fully in order to create the 'seed', on the condition this is done freely and desired by both.

The 'offspring' of the First Born will also be brought out in the same way, namely through the faith of the inner man who, ,seen from the outside, remains still in his natural body. This 'offspring' is formed 'in heaven' through the principle of rebirth and infilling with the Spirit of God who works on earth from a heavenly position.

The first Adam was a 'living soul', a very gifted natural man, able to grow fully to the high destiny the Creator ordained. Adam was
one with the world in which he was placed and therefore able to rule this world in a perfect way. Despite his natural gift the first man does not know the reality of the spiritual world, even before the Fall. This is compared to the 'wisdom' of the later king Solomon. Despite his wisdom, unprecedented in the days before and after him, the Lord Jesus considered this wisdom of minor importance than the knowledge of the 'kingdom of heavens' (1Kings 3:5-15; Matt 12:42).

The final goal of the gospel of the kingdom of heavens is the completion of the plan of God concerning the whole creation. In this respect the Re-creator made a statement that says: 'See, I make all things new'! (Rev 21:5). Herein the Creator follows a set plan (the 'eternal purposes' as mentioned above). Hereby our God fully uses the first man. In his great love for man and in His care and grace He created a way out of corruption. Through this process of rebirth and of renewal through the holy Spirit He made us coheirs of Jesus Christ, who is the Heir of all things (Titus 3:4-7).

The first step towards the salvation that God has planned, was the formation of a people of his own on earth. He Works through them by means of different shadow images and a yearly cycle of festivals towards the revelation of man according to His 'eternal plan'. The first man who lived up to this purpose is our Lord Jesus, the Christ. Immediately hereafter, the true church or the 'Body of Christ' has been formed. This church is the 'dwelling of God', built on the only and true foundation laid by the Creator Himself.

The shadow image of the true people or building of God is the visible people of Israel. Just as the natural people of Israel are central in the 'first mankind' which was born out of the first Adam by a natural birth, the 'Body of Christ' is central in the 'new mankind' which was born out of the last Adam by rebirth. The same principle of shadow and reality applies for the individual man whose visible appearance is temporal and perishable while his invisible inner being is eternal and imperishable (2Cor 4:17-5:5).

By means of the true church the 'secret of God' concerning His 'eternal plans' will be revealed. For ages this secret remained hidden in God, but the church as the expression of His manifold wisdom proclaims this secret now in the heavenly realms to the principalities and powers who are still in operation(Eph 3:9-12).

So, we see that this age has begun with the revelation of Jesus as the Christ and therefore the first Son of God. It ends with the revelation of the 'many sons' who will be by God to the same glory as the glory of the 'First Born' (Heb 2:10). This is the revelation of the 'body of Christ. For indeed, the glory of Christ is also the glory of the 'Body of Christ'.

The seventh month is the image of the endtime, the time of the harvest. We have already entered this era. At first the church of Jesus Christ comes to completion to be followed by the whole creation. This process takes place despite much battle and effort because of the opposition of the evil spirits. Through the power of His Spirit the work of God will be brought to its ordained destiny despite fierce resistance. Therefore, it is necessary and possible that we have faith in the victory over the powers of darkness because of the Spirit that lives in us. This Spirit makes man a true Christian. The believer who has not yet received this Spirit shall have to cleanse himself and to reach out in faith for this Spirit. Thanks to the given promise the gift is for everyone whom in faith asks for it (Matt 3:11; Luke 11:13; John 1:5, 11:16).

The preparatory work of the holy Spirit first brings forth the true church (the whole of believers who are infilled with the Spirit, the 'Body of Christ') in full stature. When this has become true, the atonement has been fully achieved. The Lord Jesus shall then present his 'bride' and clothe her in 'spotless fine linen' (full justice), holy and blameless, equipped to very good work. (Eph 5:26,27, Rev. 19:8)

It is vital that every human being personally experiences the fullness of the atonement. To this end one has to go through an inner 'metamorphosis' or transformation like the caterpillar that changes into a butterfly. A caterpillar comes out of the egg of the butterfly. For his nourishment and his life span the caterpillar depends on the vegetation on the ground. She is 'from below', that is, tied to the earth. A butterfly, however, can move freely around, not only in the air, but also on moments she uses the vegetation on the earth. She is 'from above' and experiences a great measure of freedom.

They are related to one another because the butterfly needs the caterpillar to be able to grow out into a butterfly by the food the caterpillar takes. Its only function is to pass on life so that the butterfly can manifest herself in all her beauty and possibilities. The caterpillar itself is not fruitful and cannot procreate as the butterfly does. In the same way the religious man has to grow into a spiritual man by feeding himself with the good word of God. He has to be renewed in his mind! (Rom 12:2). Therefore, the core of the matter is that the life of Jesus and not only the knowledge of Jesus will come to age.

The development for the man-in-Christ is therefore directly allied to the victory of Jesus Christ over the devil and Death. The 'firstborns' of the new creation take part in the 'first resurrection'. These are bought from the people as 'firstborn' before God and the Lamb. They follow the Lamb wherever It goes and they stand with the Lamb on the holy mountain Zion, a shadow image of the infilling with the Spirit of God. On this 'mountain' the true Church of Jesus Christ is built as a 'temple, holy in the Lord' and a 'dwelling of God in the Spirit' (Eph 2:21,22; Rev 141-5).

The 'sons of God' who partake in the 'first resurrection', are, just like the Lord, blessed and holy and function fully according to the intentions of God. Like the Lord they are completely freed from the claim of Death.

Since His suffering, death and victory, the Lord is making His church and the earth new from out of the only true and solid foundation of the atonement (2Tim 2:19) according to God's eternal plan. Thus, the 'manifold wisdom of God' shall made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly realms (Eph 3:9-12).

Eventually, the moment the restoration plan of God shall reach her completion, the holy city, the 'new Jerusalem,' shall descend in visible form from heaven to earth. The 'glory of God' (the gospel of Jesus Christ) within her walls shall enlighten her. Central in this city of God is the Lamb of God, which has carried the sins of the world and has taken them away (sin=literally not achieving the purpose). In turn this new Jerusalem is like an place of peace among mankind that is already freed from the oppression of the 'slave driver' and Death, but that still has to heal the wounds. The 'river of the water of life', the Spirit of God, which wells from the throne of 'God and the Lamb are feeding the 'tree of life' standing on both riverbanks and in the middle of her stream. Therefore, this tree bears always fruit that is the right food for the people, while her 'leaves' work out healing for their wounds.
From this centre the Lord God shall be all in all (1Cor 15:28) and reveal His manifold wisdom by means of the church with the Lord Jesus as Head. His light will eternally shine over the people, unhampered by anything and His salvation shall cause complete peace (Rev 21:9-22:5).

[Author]

Posts