Jesus the OT God the Father the forgotten God

Participant

MS,

Let's look at you NT “proof text”, shall we?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
Joh 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
Joh 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'

Here is a verse by verse refutation of your belief:

v33 – if the Jews did not know this forgotten God, the Father, they sure seemed to think so back in John 8:41. In any case, who do you suppose the Jews were referring to when they said “God” and they called Him Father back in 8:41?

v34 – Yeshua was speaking directly to the Jews, The Jews knew the SHEMA like nothing else in their life. So how would they have taken Yeshua quoting Psalms 86?

v35 – here's the kicker and the one verse that puts the smackdown on your “proof”. Who did the word of God come to? Prophets, kings, and judges. Men.
1Ki 12:22 But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

v36 – the word used for “sanctified” is “hagiazō”, which means to be made holy. Are you saying that God the Father had to make YHWH holy before he walked among mankind in the flesh? Hey, I just realized the same could apply for those who say Yeshua was a “person” of God; that is, why would God need to be made holy?!?

Anyway, it doesn't look like Yeshua shares your view of him…

October 15, 2007 at 9:17 pm#68454

Participant

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,15:42)

WJ,

YHVH received an inheritence. A Father doesn't get an inheritence from himself. You get an inheritence from a Father.

YHVH is a Son Just as the other sons of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 are sons. In fact why do you think this verse was altered in late masoretic texts? Because, it taught the unthinkable.

Here is the Septuagint

32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.
32:9 And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.

Here is the Masoretic (KJV)

32:8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
32:9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance

Here is the Masoretic (JPS)

Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the children of men, He set the borders of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.
Deu 32:9 For the portion of the LORD is His people, Jacob the lot of His inheritance.

I see little difference between the Masoretic and Septuagint, save the angels of God part. Is that what you are referring to? Are you then saying that YHWH is an angel?

October 15, 2007 at 9:36 pm#68455

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,09:13)

MS,

Let's look at you NT “proof text”, shall we?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
Joh 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
Joh 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'

Here is a verse by verse refutation of your belief:

v33 – if the Jews did not know this forgotten God, the Father, they sure seemed to think so back in John 8:41. In any case, who do you suppose the Jews were referring to when they said “God” and they called Him Father back in 8:41?

v34 – Yeshua was speaking directly to the Jews, The Jews knew the SHEMA like nothing else in their life. So how would they have taken Yeshua quoting Psalms 86?

v35 – here's the kicker and the one verse that puts the smackdown on your “proof”. Who did the word of God come to? Prophets, kings, and judges. Men.
1Ki 12:22 But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

v36 – the word used for “sanctified” is “hagiazō”, which means to be made holy. Are you saying that God the Father had to make YHWH holy before he walked among mankind in the flesh? Hey, I just realized the same could apply for those who say Yeshua was a “person” of God; that is, why would God need to be made holy?!?

Anyway, it doesn't look like Yeshua shares your view of him…

•v33 – if the Jews did not know this forgotten God, the Father, they sure seemed to think so back in John 8:41. In any case, who do you suppose the Jews were referring to when they said “God” and they called Him Father back in 8:41?

My Answer:

John 8
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word.

Jesus tells them they don't know him.

•v34 – Yeshua was speaking directly to the Jews, The Jews knew the SHEMA like nothing else in their life. So how would they have taken Yeshua quoting Psalms 86?

My Answer:

Deuteronomy 6:4
4`Hear, O Israel, YHVH our Elohim, is one YHVH

The verse states that there is only one YHVH, one version. (many versions existed including some that had a YHVH with an Ashteroth consort).

YHVH is Israels Elohim, admitting other nations had their own Elohim.

•v35 – here's the kicker and the one verse that puts the smackdown on your “proof”. Who did the word of God come to? Prophets, kings, and judges. Men.

My Answer:

The word of God comes to whoever it was sent to. In this case the word of God came to the Sons of God (the elohim) being judged at the divine council. You assume Jesus is referring to scripture as the word of God, not the actual declaration itself being the word of God. The scriptures describing this event can’t be broken, true. But the word of God came unto those sons who were Judged.

•v36 – the word used for “sanctified” is “hagiazō”, which means to be made holy. Are you saying that God the Father had to make YHWH holy before he walked among mankind in the flesh? Hey, I just realized the same could apply for those who say Yeshua was a “person” of God; that is, why would God need to be made holy?!?

My Answer:

Mark 10
18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
God here meaning the Father. Jesus (YHVH) is good and holy but only through complete obedience to the will of his Father who is only truly innately good.

Anyway, it doesn't look like Yeshua shares your view of him…

My Answer:

I am not dogmatic, but at this stage I disagree.

October 15, 2007 at 9:43 pm#68456

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,09:17)

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,15:42)

WJ,

YHVH received an inheritence. A Father doesn't get an inheritence from himself. You get an inheritence from a Father.

YHVH is a Son Just as the other sons of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 are sons. In fact why do you think this verse was altered in late masoretic texts? Because, it taught the unthinkable.

Here is the Septuagint

32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.
32:9 And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.

Here is the Masoretic (KJV)

32:8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
32:9 For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance

Here is the Masoretic (JPS)

Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the children of men, He set the borders of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.
Deu 32:9 For the portion of the LORD is His people, Jacob the lot of His inheritance.

I see little difference between the Masoretic and Septuagint, save the angels of God part. Is that what you are referring to? Are you then saying that YHWH is an angel?

Some septuagint translations say angels of God and others sons of God.

So I am not saying he was an angel, but a son of God, one of the elohim. gods.

examples:

Caanan had Baal.
Israel had YHVH.

October 15, 2007 at 9:47 pm#68458

Participant

My Answer:

Deuteronomy 6:4
4`Hear, O Israel, YHVH our Elohim, is one YHVH

The verse states that there is only one YHVH, one version. (many versions existed including some that had a YHVH with an Ashteroth consort).

YHVH is Israels Elohim, admitting other nations had their own Elohim.

IN addition to this answer. This verse can be translated as:

Hear, O Israel, YHVH our Elohim, alone.

In other words Israel needs to listen to their elohim and not the elohim of the pagan nations. which admits they exist.

October 15, 2007 at 10:10 pm#68462

Participant

MS,

But you've yet to address that YHWH was called “Most High”. This puts a humongous hurdle in your path.

October 15, 2007 at 10:12 pm#68464

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,10:10)

MS,

But you've yet to address that YHWH was called “Most High”. This puts a humongous hurdle in your path.

Not if all things were given to the Son from The Father. He inherited it all. He became most high.

October 15, 2007 at 10:15 pm#68465

Participant

MS,

Also whether it be “angels of God” or “sons of God”, what of this?

Dan 10:21 “However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.
Dan 12:1 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Since this was written to Israelites, and you are saying that YHWH was given Israel, are you then saying that YHWH is Michael? Or is YHWH the king while Michael is his prince? And do you consider angels to also be called “sons of God”.

Your theology is getty sticky…

October 15, 2007 at 10:18 pm#68468

Participant

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,10:12)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,10:10)

MS,

But you've yet to address that YHWH was called “Most High”. This puts a humongous hurdle in your path.

Not if all things were given to the Son from The Father. He inherited it all. He became most high.

Example:

Psa 97:9 For You are the LORD [YHWH] Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods.

YHVH is the Firstborn he has been exatled above all the other sons of El.

He has been given the ultimate inheritence “all things”. Because he loves and obeys his Father completely.

We have the option to join this family and become part of it ourselves where in turn we receive a joint inheritence becoming brothers of Christ and sons of God.

Completing the circle. A complete restoration of the original glories creation.

October 15, 2007 at 10:25 pm#68469

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,10:15)

MS,

Also whether it be “angels of God” or “sons of God”, what of this?

Dan 10:21 “However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.
Dan 12:1 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

Your theology is getty sticky…

No Jesus isn't Michael.

Angels are ministering servants.

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]”? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

Hebrews 1 proves two important things angels are never called sons of God. Jesus has fellow companions that he has been set above.

Psalm 82 helps glarify.

1– A Psalm of Asaph. God hath stood in the company of God, In the midst God doth judge.

2Till when do ye judge perversely? And the face of the wicked lift up? Selah.

3Judge ye the weak and fatherless, The afflicted and the poor declare righteous.

4Let the weak and needy escape, From the hand of the wicked deliver them.

5They knew not, nor do they understand, In darkness they walk habitually, Moved are all the foundations of earth.

6I — I have said, `Gods ye [are], And sons of the Most High — all of you,

7But as man ye die, and as one of the heads ye fall,

8Rise, O God, judge the earth, For Thou hast inheritance among all the nations!

The others sons of God (the companions) are judged and sentenced. The new commission is given to the only Good son the only Good shephard. Israel's Elohim YHVH. This son inherits all things. The gods appointed over the other nations were all bad sons and bad shephards over their inheritance and it was stripped from them.

verse 8 once again brings up inheritence from a Father to a son.

October 15, 2007 at 11:21 pm#68474

Participant

You say…

Quote

I am saying there are two distinct beings. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament creator and savior of the world. The Father is the original source of all, the king of a pantheon of sons who are now deceased (or at least imprisoned) except for the one Good Son who inherited the whole earth no longer just Israel.

You havnt answered my question. In light of your statement above if Yeshua is not God “One with the Father and the Spirit” then how do you explain the following…

Since Yeshua is the one who created all things by his hands according to Heb 1:10, then if he is not God then it would be a contradiction to the fact that YHWH Alone created all things and that he is our “Only” saviour, which these scriptures bear out…

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is…

“None like him”, “None beside him' but “By Myself”. and “None Else” have I made all things.

Yet we see NT scriptures that are “Unambiguous” in making Yeshua the Saviour and the Creator.

How do you explain this?

Did “YHWH” lie when he said “Alone”, “By myself”, “None other”.

You are saying that the Father created all things through a lessor being “another god” therefore contradicting the Hebrew scriptures.

October 15, 2007 at 11:57 pm#68477

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,11:21)

You say…

Quote

You havnt answered my question. In light of your statement above if Yeshua is not God “One with the Father and the Spirit” then how do you explain the following…

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is…

“None like him”, “None beside him' but “By Myself”. and “None Else” have I made all things.

Yet we see NT scriptures that are “Unambiguous” in making Yeshua the Saviour and the Creator.

How do you explain this?

Did “YHWH” lie when he said “Alone”, “By myself”, “None other”.

You are saying that the Father created all things through a lessor being “another god” therefore contradicting the Hebrew scriptures.

I am not contradicting myself. The Father is not YHVH. The Son is. The Father doesn't have a name.

The son created everything. The son has received power from the Father. The son then chose to create with that power. This is known as the demiurge to the gnostics. However, I am not a gnostic even if I share a few beliefs with them.

Which by the way many early christian groups did share this belief but were not gnostic. They believed the teachings of Christ as found in the gospels. But had a completely different Christology than the Church developed primarily through constantine and then throughout the centuries it has morphed even farther.

YHVH is the son of God one of the elohim, the sons of El, who created us and our world.

The holy spirit is not a God or person, but the force, mind, will and power of the Father which spreads through out all and can be manifested as power through those he calls sons. YHVH primarily (since the other sons are dethroned) and then us and children via adoption.

In a nut shell the Father you know in my view is actually the Son. In my view you have morphed two beings into one because you see that Jesus is YHVH but then you also think that the Father is YHVH.

In my view the Father never had a nation in particular that he took for himself he watched over all. YHVH his son was the only good son and he has thus given him all nations no longer just Israel.

October 16, 2007 at 12:03 am#68478

Participant

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,11:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,11:21)

You say…

Quote

You havnt answered my question. In light of your statement above if Yeshua is not God “One with the Father and the Spirit” then how do you explain the following…

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is…

“None like him”, “None beside him' but “By Myself”. and “None Else” have I made all things.

Yet we see NT scriptures that are “Unambiguous” in making Yeshua the Saviour and the Creator.

How do you explain this?

Did “YHWH” lie when he said “Alone”, “By myself”, “None other”.

You are saying that the Father created all things through a lessor being “another god” therefore contradicting the Hebrew scriptures.

I am not contradicting myself. The Father is not YHVH. The Son is. The Father doesn't have a name.

YHVH is the son of God one of the elohim, the sons of El, who created us and our world.

In a nut shell the Father you know in my view is actually the Son. In my view you have morphed two beings into one because you see that Jesus is YHVH but then you also think that the Father is YHVH.

In my view the Father never had a nation in particular that he took for himself he watched over all. YHVH his son was the only good son and he has thus given him all nations no longer just Israel.

So then the Father had nothing to do with the creation?

October 16, 2007 at 12:05 am#68479

Participant

He is the source of all, without the power given to his son then YHVH can do nothing.

In that sense yes the Father did have something to do with it.

October 16, 2007 at 12:14 am#68482

Participant

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:05)

He is the source of all, without the power given to his son then YHVH can do nothing.

In that sense yes the Father did have something to do with it.

The hebrew scriptures says “By myself” “None Other”.

If you say that YHWH did by the power of the Father then YHWH did not do it by himself.

So in no sence can the Father be involved in the creation with a lessor being.

So what does this scripture mean to you then….

Eph 3:9
And to make all [men] see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in *God*, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

October 16, 2007 at 12:29 am#68484

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,12:14)

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:05)

He is the source of all, without the power given to his son then YHVH can do nothing.

In that sense yes the Father did have something to do with it.

The hebrew scriptures says “By myself” “None Other”.

If you say that YHWH did by the power of the Father then YHWH did not do it by himself.

So in no sence can the Father be involved in the creation with a lessor being.

So what does this scripture mean to you then….

Eph 3:9
And to make all [men] see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in *God*, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Interesting how as far as I can tell only the KJV text reads that way:

eph 3 ESV
9and(U) to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery(V) hidden for ages in God(W) who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold(X) wisdom of God(Y) might now be made known to(Z) the rulers and authorities(AA) in the heavenly places.

I find that suspect, however regardless, this boils down to semantics IMO. Through, by, for etc… all of these expressions are saying that YHVH created the world in action, The Father in principle.

October 16, 2007 at 12:43 am#68485

Participant

The Godhead is a binity. That is the order of administration. You say trinity because the Holy spirit gets personified. You take this understanding and make 3 beings (2 actually) and make them one being with multiple personalities.

However, I hold that Jesus (YHVH) is a distinct being not just one personality of a Godforce. He is one of the sons of The Father. In fact, the only son left who wasn't judged and deposed.

I believe this occured because Judaism became increasingly hardline monotheistic. They even began to deny the existence of angels. Judaism merged El with YHVH. The Greek christians not knowing any better followed their example. They assumed that the jews must know what they are talking about and they had to merge Jesus and the Father. They followed this example so much that in the 4th century they stopped using the septuagint and started using the hebrew text that wasn't finalized until after 100 AD. Our modern bibles reflect this with the masoretic text. The masoretic text shows the results of the jewish people trying to get rid of the evidence that christians used for christ.

October 16, 2007 at 12:45 am#68486

Participant

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 15 2007,17:12)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,10:10)

MS,

But you've yet to address that YHWH was called “Most High”. This puts a humongous hurdle in your path.

Not if all things were given to the Son from The Father. He inherited it all. He became most high.

Sorry, but that is an answer that is left very wanting. I guess YHWH's Father just rode off into the sunset and then came back for the New Testament? Will the Father be “Most High” again?

October 16, 2007 at 12:51 am#68487

Participant

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 16 2007,12:14)

Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,12:05)

He is the source of all, without the power given to his son then YHVH can do nothing.

In that sense yes the Father did have something to do with it.

The hebrew scriptures says “By myself” “None Other”.

If you say that YHWH did by the power of the Father then YHWH did not do it by himself.

So in no sence can the Father be involved in the creation with a lessor being.

So what does this scripture mean to you then….

Eph 3:9
And to make all [men] see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in *God*, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Interesting how as far as I can tell only the KJV text reads that way:

I find that suspect, however regardless, this boils down to semantics IMO. Through, by, for etc… all of these expressions are saying that YHVH created the world in action, The Father in principle.

No. It is not semantics. There is only one God that created all things.

How about this one…

Heb 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Two beings did not create the world or the Hebrew scriptures are in contradiction.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

Notice the scriptures say there is “No God Beside him” and “None like me”.

*I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

The God of the Hebrews faith is Monotheistic, not Henotheistic or Polytheistic.

October 16, 2007 at 12:55 am#68488